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supercar

Muqtada al-Sadr has fled Iraq

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Stellar
If you would like to debate to information I have presented please do so.

Once again, what makes the US so tyrannical?

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el midgetron
Once again, what makes the US so tyrannical?

Ok fine. If the best you can do is to play dumb, then why dont you ask AROCES why the US is so tyrannical?

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Stellar
Ok fine. If the best you can do is to play dumb, then why dont you ask AROCES why the US is so tyrannical?

Dumb? Im asking you a question, if all you can do is make claims and not substantiate it, and pass the burden off to someone else, it is you who is acting dumb.

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el midgetron
Dumb? Im asking you a question, if all you can do is make claims and not substantiate it, and pass the burden off to someone else, it is you who is acting dumb.

Read the topic. Read the links.

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Fluffybunny
Read the topic. Read the links.

It is a fair question to a claim that you are making, why are you avoiding answering it?

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AROCES

Because he can't, he tried to twist it around thinking readers here won't notice. :rolleyes:

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el midgetron
It is a fair question to a claim that you are making, why are you avoiding answering it?

Ok, fine. I have been presenting a logical argument and backed up my evidence with sources. AROCES has done nothing of the sort. In response to my points AROCES simply responds with twisted logic and word games. For example -

I posted, with source to back up my information -

"As meny as 2/3rds are Iraqies. I think the very fact Iraqie resistance is such a problem is evidence they dont want us there."

AROCES response -

"Who is they? The Iraqis who voted? Or the few hundreds who are bombing the ones who voted?"

me -

"You think a few hundred "rouge Iraqies" could keep the US millitary fighting for control? We have killed far more than a few hundred and the situation there is only getting worse."

AROCES response goes back to "they who bomb" and backs up his claim with a hypotetical -

"So, why do they bomb their fellow Iraqis?

If you think the majority of the Irqis wants us out, then why not get on the street on a mass protest and chant, U.S. OUT!!!, can you imagine how that would makes us look really as occupier instead of liberators? Well??? "

and this goes on and on, read it.

Anyway, I went on to detail how meny insurgents there are, what percentage of the insurgents are Iraqi, how much of the population supports the insurgents, and how few of the population want the coalition there. All of it backed up with sources. The best AORCES respond to any of that information is to say "who are they" ect, ect.

I told Stellar to read the topic and the links because this is the whole of AROCES's case. He completely ignors the evidence and plays dumb. The 2 main points AROCES supports is that the terrorist need "territory", which again I have provided source evidence that this is not the case, and that AROCES dosnt know who "they" are and why they bomb. Read the topic.

Now for the question of why the Americans are Tyranical -

Well, we agreed on something the insurgents are the ones shooting at us, same group who are bombing the Iraqis who wants no more of their Tyrannical rule.

As I said to Stellar, these were AROCES words, ask him. Notice the date of the post "Feb 22 2007" how many years after Saddam was removed from Iraq did AROCES make this post? Are the insurgents fighting for the regime of Saddam? Did they ever? No. "Who want no more of their Tyrannical rule". This statement is clearly in the present, presently the Iraqis are being occupied by the coalition of which the "Americans" are a principal element. Therefore, (according the AROCES) the Americans are tyrannical. Heck, I have even posted information which backs up AROCES statement -

1% of Iraqi citizens who think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country.

65% of Iraqi citizens support the insurgent attacks.

82% are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops.

67% of Iraqis who feel less secure because of the occupation.

72% do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.

source

By those numbers it doesnt look like the majority of Iraqis want us there. AROCES called their (the Iraqis) current rule, "tyrannical". 85% are opposed the the presence of the coalition. America is the principal force in the coalition ruling Iraq. 65% of Iraqi citizens support the insurgent attacks. 65% support those "who are bombing the Iraqis who wants no more of their Tyrannical rule". So the numbers do not support "their rule" being the rule of the "insurgents" either, as if they even have one. Nor is it put in a time frame for Saddams tyrannical rule. "Their rule" is clearly directed at the "Iraqis", whos ruling the Iraqis? The occupying coalition.

Nope, you are twisting it around. Nice try, but you are assuming the readers here are not smart enough to figure that out.

No I am not. They are your words. I am sure you meant something else by the statement but it looks like you are "not smart enough" to structure your argument in a way it makes sense.

"the insurgents are the ones shooting at us, same group who are bombing the Iraqis who wants no more of their Tyrannical rule."

In this sentance, "their" refers back to "Iraqis", the Iraqis who "wants no more" of the rule they are under.

Its a mute point anyway, there is a civil war between the Shiite and the sunni. So, yes they are blowing themselves up and each other up. How does this discredit the numbers in the poll? How does a civil war change that both sides (82% of Iraqis) don't want us there? ANY RESPONSE?

AROCES only reason for posting that was to create an argument of circular logic becuase it the best he can do.

Why is it that you guys wont read the topic, wont read or address the evidence I have provided, wont try to make any valid point but you only post to question one statement I make, which was taken directly from AROCES's post?

What do you think of the numbers in the MoD poll?

What do you think of the torture legislation and alligations?

Do you think the terrorist need "territory"? If so, what for?

What do you think about 90% of the insurgent being Iraqis?

How does the civil war change the fact that 82% of Iraqis do not want us there?

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Spurious George

Iraqi PM advices Mahdi Army leaders to hide in Iran, leaked letter

The Iraqi Prime Minister advised the Mahdi Army leaders to hide in Iran, revealed a leaked letter from the office of the prime minister and posted online by the Kurdish website peyamner on Tuesday.

A letter issued by the office of the Iraqi Prime Minister, Nuri al-Maliki, with the coordination of the Iraqi National Security Advisor, Muwaffaq al-Rabii, advices Muqtada al-Sadir to hide the leaders of his militants, the Mahdi Army, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, in case they are “arrested or killed by the American forces”. Al-Maliki, in his letter states, “The current situation requires to keep the leaders of the Mahdi Army, who are affiliated to the organisation of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, away from the front line.”

The letter, dated 14 January 2007 and signed by Iraqi Prime Minister, is written after a telephone conversation between Muqtada al-Sadir and the Iraqi Prime Minister. The Iraqi National Security Advisor, Muwaffaq al-Rabii appears to be part of the operation. The letter is classified as confidential, private and immediate.

The letter states the name of 11 leaders of the Mahdi Army who have links with the Islamic Guards and who are advised by the office of the Prime Minister to leave to Iran. They are: Abas al-Kufi, Amir Muhsin Khwja, salim Hussein, Azhar al-Maliki, al-Shiekh Farhan al-Sayidi (Najaf), Fadhil al-Sarii (the adviser of the Prime Minister), Riyadh al-Nuri (Najaf), Ali al-Firtusi, Hayidar al-Araji, Ahmad al-Darraji and Amir al-Sayidi.

The letter is copied to the Iranian Embassy in Baghdad, the leadership of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) and the office of al-Sadir.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/14721

If true, coupled with other instances of Maliki's double-dealing, can the US rely on the Iraq government to rein in the Mahdi army? Or is the Shiite dominated Iraqi government simply using the US forces to eliminate their enemies, the Sunnis?

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AROCES
Ok, fine. I have been presenting a logical argument and backed up my evidence with sources. AROCES has done nothing of the sort. In response to my points AROCES simply responds with twisted logic and word games. For example -

I posted, with source to back up my information -

"As meny as 2/3rds are Iraqies. I think the very fact Iraqie resistance is such a problem is evidence they dont want us there."

AROCES response -

"Who is they? The Iraqis who voted? Or the few hundreds who are bombing the ones who voted?"

"You think a few hundred "rouge Iraqies" could keep the US millitary fighting for control? We have killed far more than a few hundred and the situation there is only getting worse."

AROCES response goes back to "they who bomb" and backs up his claim with a hypotetical -

"So, why do they bomb their fellow Iraqis?

If you think the majority of the Irqis wants us out, then why not get on the street on a mass protest and chant, U.S. OUT!!!, can you imagine how that would makes us look really as occupier instead of liberators? Well??? "

and this goes on and on, read it.

Anyway, I went on to detail how meny insurgents there are, what percentage of the insurgents are Iraqi, how much of the population supports the insurgents, and how few of the population want the coalition there. All of it backed up with sources. The best AORCES respond to any of that information is to say "who are they" ect, ect.

I told Stellar to read the topic and the links because this is the whole of AROCES's case. He completely ignors the evidence and plays dumb. The 2 main points AROCES supports is that the terrorist need "territory", which again I have provided source evidence that this is not the case, and that AROCES dosnt know who "they" are and why they bomb. Read the topic.

Simply because your poll or data does not reflect what is happening in reality, WHY DON"T WE SEE YOUR MAJORITY DEMAND THE AMERICANS LEAVE?

Now for the question of why the Americans are Tyranical -

As I said to Stellar, these were AROCES words, ask him. Notice the date of the post "Feb 22 2007" how many years after Saddam was removed from Iraq did AROCES make this post? Are the insurgents fighting for the regime of Saddam? Did they ever? No. "Who want no more of their Tyrannical rule". This statement is clearly in the present, presently the Iraqis are being occupied by the coalition of which the "Americans" are a principal element. Therefore, (according the AROCES) the Americans are tyrannical. Heck, I have even posted information which backs up AROCES statement -

Everyone seem to not get lost who I was referring to when I said, no more of their Tyrannical rule. I don't think you were either, instead you took the opportunity to twist things around, you simply understimated the readers here. Now you are trying to get out of it. You know how a quick sand works right? The more you twist and screw around the faster you sink! :lol:

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el midgetron
If true, coupled with other instances of Maliki's double-dealing, can the US rely on the Iraq government to rein in the Mahdi army? Or is the Shiite dominated Iraqi government simply using the US forces to eliminate their enemies, the Sunnis?

That is exactly the case. The recent withdrawl of British troops is from Shiite dominated territory. And the US surge is for areas the shiites are (reportably) standing down, leaving the Americans to fight the Sunni. I wouldnt say the Iraqi government is "using" the US forces, I suspect this is the intended plan of coalition forces to "bring peace" to Iraq.

I think its worth noting that in 1991 after the first gulf war, when the US decided not to remove Saddam, Saddams regime (being not confronted by US forces) was able to "squash" the Shiite uprising. Hence, now we have mass graves of Shiites from a US encouraged uprising which we failed to support.

Following the 1991 Gulf war, mass uprisings against the Iraqi regime occurred in the Kurdish north and the Shi`a south, at least in part encouraged by then-President George H. Bush’s broadcasted call to the Iraqi people to “take matters into their own hands to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.
source

12 years from now will be be finding mass graves of Sunni?

Simply because your poll or data does not reflect what is happening in reality,

And what do you have to back up your version of reality?

WHY DON"T WE SEE YOUR MAJORITY DEMAND THE AMERICANS LEAVE?

Maybe they are to busy trying to find clean water, or fearfull of making themselves targets.

Everyone seem to not get lost who I was referring to when I said, no more of their Tyrannical rule.

And you were referring to what?

I don't think you were either, instead you took the opportunity to twist things around, you simply understimated the readers here. Now you are trying to get out of it. You know how a quick sand works right? The more you twist and screw around the faster you sink! :lol:

What am I trying to get out of? I stand by what I said. You are the one who even after several posts, the best you can do to refute the evidence I have shared is to say -

Simply because your poll or data does not reflect what is happening in reality,

Again, what do you have to back up your version of reality? Anything?

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AROCES
And what do you have to back up your version of reality?

Maybe they are to busy trying to find clean water, or fearfull of making themselves targets.

The reality of your Majority is not demanding the Americans leave. Not your reality base on questionable and inaccurate polls.

More of they know who is really responsible for them not able to have clean water.

Fearful of making themselves a target???? where have you been????

And you were referring to what?

What am I trying to get out of? I stand by what I said. You are the one who even after several posts, the best you can do to refute the evidence I have shared is to say -

It's not working, give it up. Your twist didn't work. :lol:

Again, what do you have to back up your version of reality? Anything?

Actual events against your poll, there you go.

Edited by AROCES

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el midgetron

Anything to back up your views? Anything? A news artical maybe?

Like it or not, the very fact that there are insurgents fighting the US forces is evidence they dont want us there. 65% of the population support those attacks. Is there anything more demanding than pointing a gun at someone?

How are the Iraqis supposed to "demand" we leave?

Since you once again failed to address the direct question I put to you I will ask it again.

Everyone seem to not get lost who I was referring to when I said, no more of their Tyrannical rule.

What were you referring to?

Thats 2 questions I am asking you. If you cant answer them please don't bother posting again.

What were you referring to?

How are the Iraqis supposed to "demand" we leave?

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AROCES
Anything to back up your views? Anything? A news artical maybe?

Like it or not, the very fact that there are insurgents fighting the US forces is evidence they dont want us there. 65% of the population support those attacks. Is there anything more demanding than pointing a gun at someone?

FACT. As hard as you try with your propagandas and your polls, the majority of the Iraqis are not demanding we leave Iraq now.

How are the Iraqis supposed to "demand" we leave?

Simple, get on the street and demand it or simply call Nancy Pelosi. :tu:

Since you once again failed to address the direct question I put to you I will ask it again.

What were you referring to?

Told you it's not working, it's a spilled milk. :lol:

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el midgetron
Simple, get on the street and demand it or simply call Nancy Pelosi. :tu:

Yeah, considering they are in the center of a war zone, those are both realistic ideas.

You claim the ministry of defense poll doesnt reflect "reality" and the best you can support your view is to say, if it was true, then the Iraqis would "simply" call Nancy Pelosi.

Told you it's not working, it's a spilled milk. :lol:

I think "its a spilled milk", pretty sums up your argument in whole.

Stellar, Fluffy? Either of you want to defend AROCES points? Anyone?

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AROCES
Yeah, considering they are in the center of a war zone, those are both realistic ideas.

You claim the ministry of defense poll doesnt reflect "reality" and the best you can support your view is to say, if it was true, then the Iraqis would "simply" call Nancy Pelosi.

Yup, very realistic. They chant, US OUT! and we leave. No need to even call Nancy then. PLUS, it will give credential to your propagandas and poll. :tu:

I think "its a spilled milk", pretty sums up your argument in whole.

Stellar, Fluffy? Either of you want to defend AROCES points? Anyone?

Answer their question first, then they might answer yours.

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Fluffybunny
Yeah, considering they are in the center of a war zone, those are both realistic ideas.

You claim the ministry of defense poll doesnt reflect "reality" and the best you can support your view is to say, if it was true, then the Iraqis would "simply" call Nancy Pelosi.

I think "its a spilled milk", pretty sums up your argument in whole.

Stellar, Fluffy? Either of you want to defend AROCES points? Anyone?

It is a pretty safe bet that I will disagree with Aroces in regards to the iraq war; I disagree with a lot of people in regards to war (and the willingness to urge war yet not risk anything in the process it is a pet peeve of mine) and Aroces is pretty well aware of that fact as I would imagine he has read my posts in the different threads. I don't need to defend him; I don't agree with him. I will say that regardless of how he comes up with his arguments or whether or not he is using faulty logic or not his statements are all fairly easy to refute, but then again so are most peoples opinions and facts when you are willing to research your own set of fact to debate with them. That is the entire idea of this forum.

The only reason I asked you to respond to the "tyranny" claims you were making was that it is a very big claim that was refered to; you were asked specifically about it, but avoided the response by pointing elsewhere each time so I simply pointed out that it was a fair question. If you have been here for any length of time you know where I stand on this war...

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el midgetron
It is a pretty safe bet that I will disagree with Aroces in regards to the iraq war; I disagree with a lot of people in regards to war (and the willingness to urge war yet not risk anything in the process it is a pet peeve of mine) and Aroces is pretty well aware of that fact as I would imagine he has read my posts in the different threads. I don't need to defend him; I don't agree with him. I will say that regardless of how he comes up with his arguments or whether or not he is using faulty logic or not his statements are all fairly easy to refute, but then again so are most peoples opinions and facts when you are willing to research your own set of fact to debate with them. That is the entire idea of this forum.

The only reason I asked you to respond to the "tyranny" claims you were making was that it is a very big claim that was refered to; you were asked specifically about it, but avoided the response by pointing elsewhere each time so I simply pointed out that it was a fair question. If you have been here for any length of time you know where I stand on this war...

Thank you. I should know where you stand on the war by now but all you mods look the same to me. :lol: jk

peace

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AROCES
Thank you. I should know where you stand on the war by now but all you mods look the same to me. :lol: jk

peace

You mean, thank you for you don't have to answer the question???

You ain't getting off the hook that easy, you have not answerd the question still.. :lol::lol::lol:

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el midgetron
You mean, thank you for you don't have to answer the question???

You ain't getting off the hook that easy, you have not answerd the question still.. :lol::lol::lol:

I did answer their question. I took the statement from your words, whether you ment what you said or not. Its you who wont answer my question as to whos tyrannical rule you were speaking of. Unless, Stellar or fluffy request I explain further, or have other questions, I am done speaking to you.

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Atheist God

A real victory would have been to capture or kill not let run away and get reinforcements...Thread description is misleading.

FACT. As hard as you try with your propagandas and your polls, the majority of the Iraqis are not demanding we leave Iraq now.

FACT. A recent poll conducted in Iraq has shown that 70% of them think it's ok to blow up marines. Another fact is this war is over and the US and their 'coalition of the willing' is beginning to break apart. England as well as many other nations have announced they are pulling out.

The question people need to ask is how can we solve some of the problems in Iraq.

If you pull out you risk a huge regional conflict. If you put more troops in the battlefield and stay it accomplishes nothing but increasing the casualty list.

The only person in the US who has a decent idea in regards to Iraq is Joe Biden. Iraq needs to be divided up into 3 states, one Sunni, one Shiite and one Kurd. Divide up resources evenly amonst all three groups and let them police themselves.

The bottom line is there are only 3 options regarding Iraq.

1: You let them fight eachother which could grow into a much larger conflict

2: Another dictator likely Shiite this time takes power

3: Dived up all three opposing factions.

For those who say you can't draw lines why not Iraq was a made up country anyway. It worked in the past and already Sunni and Shiite are moving away from one another to avoid getting blown up or shot. Sunni do not want to be policed by Shiite and vice versa, so why not let them police themselves.

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AROCES
FACT. A recent poll conducted in Iraq has shown that 70% of them think it's ok to blow up marines. Another fact is this war is over and the US and their 'coalition of the willing' is beginning to break apart. England as well as many other nations have announced they are pulling out.

A Poll is now a FACT??? :blink: Poll said Al Gore was ahead and going to beat Bush, Exit poll had Kerry on a landslide win. :rolleyes:

Yeah, they are pulling out as Basra feels they are ready. Wasn't that the plan after all?

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES
The only person in the US who has a decent idea in regards to Iraq is Joe Biden. Iraq needs to be divided up into 3 states, one Sunni, one Shiite and one Kurd. Divide up resources evenly amonst all three groups and let them police themselves.

The bottom line is there are only 3 options regarding Iraq.

1: You let them fight eachother which could grow into a much larger conflict

2: Another dictator likely Shiite this time takes power

3: Dived up all three opposing factions.

For those who say you can't draw lines why not Iraq was a made up country anyway. It worked in the past and already Sunni and Shiite are moving away from one another to avoid getting blown up or shot. Sunni do not want to be policed by Shiite and vice versa, so why not let them police themselves.

Anyone ask Joe Biden how are you going to divide the Oil Fields?

Anyone ask Joe Biden what are you going to do when an all at war breaks up between them, and you have millions of refugee? Well, that would be new voters for the Democrats . :tu:

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES

cancelled

Edited by AROCES

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Atheist God
A Poll is now a FACT??? :blink: Poll said Al Gore was ahead and going to beat Bush, Exit poll had Kerry on a landslide win. :rolleyes:

Yeah, they are pulling out as Basra feels they are ready. Wasn't that the plan after all?

They both won and you know it....There is tons of evidence including testimony under oath from people who design the software and said that the E-Voting machines were rigged...

Anyone ask Joe Biden how are you going to divide the Oil Fields?

A federal system with equall representation from all three Iraqi states.

Anyone ask Joe Biden what are you going to do when an all at war breaks up between them, and you have millions of refugee? Well, that would be new voters for the Democrats .

I'm nor democrat or republican I'm Canadian and i lean to what makes sense.

Fact is there is already a mass exodus from Iraq so those millions of refugees you talk about already exist. As for division it worked when the brits did it, that is until the US had the bright idea to screw everything up.

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AROCES
They both won and you know it....There is tons of evidence including testimony under oath from people who design the software and said that the E-Voting machines were rigged...

No, I don't know it. And just like the Majority of Iraqis who wants the US out of Iraq, where are they? How come we see them only from polls?

Why did the Democrats not challenge or made a case on it, show us your evidence? A serious accusation is all you guys have. :tu:

A federal system with equall representation from all three Iraqi states.

A Federal system??? I thought you want a 3 seperate country??? Who gets to own the land where the Oil fields are?

I'm nor democrat or republican I'm Canadian and i lean to what makes sense.

Fact is there is already a mass exodus from Iraq so those millions of refugees you talk about already exist. As for division it worked when the brits did it, that is until the US had the bright idea to screw everything up.

Where are the millions of refugee? Exact location please.

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