The Nameless One Posted November 25, 2003 #1 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Many of you probably have read my other threads about Chaos theory, So Ill try not to post too much on the subject, because I would have to either explain myself again, or do the copy paste method, and that would take to long. So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points. Both teams could play forever and ever, until both scores looked like this. Team Ones score may be, 1000000022333400000000000000022000330000333335550000000000000. And Team two's score may look like this. 244444444433099388111111188888888 888888880000000000000000000000000000000001019282827363 671818991093000000000000000000000000000000002299000. Nobody can actually predict the outcome, because there is no outcome, by now some of you are thinking wow this sucks no it has no end. But yet is there an end? By Chance (Randomness) certain events may unfold to cause an actual or possibly only postpone an outcome, under given conditions. These events could be Anything, the players may need a drink of water, disasters could happen, players may get bored of playing, but yet if they want under other given conditions they may begin to play again and start over thus Team two would win, or continue to play forever and ever again with the same scores they had, before Chance had occured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuffypuffer Posted November 25, 2003 #2 Share Posted November 25, 2003 No, the team that was ahead after nine innings wins the game. the rest is just nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nameless One Posted November 25, 2003 Author #3 Share Posted November 25, 2003 No, the team that was ahead after nine innings wins the game. the rest is just nonsense. Why do you say this? Can you give valid, scientific explanations that prove what I say is incorrect. The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist. Read the about the Lorenz Attractor, the Butterfly Effect, and the Koch Curve, then come back and tell me it's nonsense. Do your homework before you give your speech, for if not your teacher may give you an F. You can also read my own original Idea which I call the Probabilty of Possiblity, thus the LAW OF PROBABLE FORCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuffypuffer Posted November 25, 2003 #4 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Why do you say this? Can you give valid, scientific explanations that prove what I say is incorrect. You used a bad analogy, baseball games only last nine innings, the team with the most runs after that time, wins. If they went on and on after that, nobody would win, and there would be no point in playing at all. You stated, and correct me if I'm wrong, that after nine innings, if one team has 7 runs, and one team has 10 runs, that no team actually won the game, because if they went on longer it's possible that the results would be different. I'm saying the team ahead after nine wins. that's the way baseball is played. Sometimes the game goes on, but because at the end of nine innings, the score is tied, it goes on until someone wins. I know all about the butterfly theory, that if a butterfly flaps its wings in one place, it causes a thunderstorm in another. As far as I know, this does not apply to baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollum Posted November 25, 2003 #5 Share Posted November 25, 2003 So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points. Snuffs right, YOU say that at the end of the ninth inning team 2 has 10 points and team 1 has 7 points. YOU then go on to say that IF they kept on playing. I really do'nt know what your point is, all you are saying is that if you start at zero and keep counting you will never end because you can always add 1 more digit to the last number. Sorry mate, but i worked that one out when i was seven or eight years old. No big mystery there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuffypuffer Posted November 25, 2003 #6 Share Posted November 25, 2003 The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist. You also need to learn about conjunctions, these are nifty little words that tie a sentence together, causing what you say to be understandable. Just a friendly heads up, to make your posts a bit easier to read, really man, your grammar is giving me a headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nameless One Posted November 25, 2003 Author #7 Share Posted November 25, 2003 So Picture this, their are two baseball teams, both start with Zero points, at the end of the 9th inning, Team one has 7 points, and Team two has 10 points. Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points. Snuffs right, YOU say that at the end of the ninth inning team 2 has 10 points and team 1 has 7 points. YOU then go on to say that IF they kept on playing. I really do'nt know what your point is, all you are saying is that if you start at zero and keep counting you will never end because you can always add 1 more digit to the last number. Sorry mate, but i worked that one out when i was seven or eight years old. No big mystery there! Why does everyone miss the point, does anyone in this forum understand me, and the point I was trying to make? Helpppppeellppeleph eme!!!!! Bashing head against monitor. So what you are saying is that there is no end to the 8th inning or the 7th inning, but yet the game is played through nine innings, could go longer forever the game that never ends where the only random events unfold to postpone a game, or cause to end, until someone wants......w.wiwmlsmoipjwqsidij w/xms.dxsmx.x////....... No more explaining. Read about the butterfly effect, the koch curve, many others, try to solve Fermat................ Im bored out of my gored of explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollum Posted November 25, 2003 #8 Share Posted November 25, 2003 go read your probability theory again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nameless One Posted November 25, 2003 Author #9 Share Posted November 25, 2003 The only thing that is nonsense is the fact, that you have yet to give me or prove that Chaos is debunk Science when indeed it has been proven to exist. You also need to learn about conjunctions, these are nifty little words that tie a sentence together, causing what you say to be understandable. Just a friendly heads up, to make your posts a bit easier to read, really man, your grammar is giving me a headache. Oh did I break your concentration, well allow me to retort. Debunk Science=Junk Science, don't blame me for your own mishaps, you should have listened in English, and Science Class. Your giving me an upset stomach, so now we are even. Conjunction junction whats your function? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snuffypuffer Posted November 26, 2003 #10 Share Posted November 26, 2003 I give up, you obviously have no idea what yourself or anyone else is talking about. Do you want me to hold your hand and walk you through this? You stated, that given two baseball teams, playing 9 innings, team one scoring 7 points team two scoring 10 points, that neither team would actually win, because if they went on playing they would undeniably score more runs. Am I getting this right? And then you went into all this probability random conditions stuff, and that you can't actually predict the outcome of the game, because of all the independent variables going into it. Am I on the wrong track? I say after nine innings the point is moot, there is no reason to play more innings if one team is ahead after nine, and anything after that is pointless to discuss. You keep arguing a point that doesn't exist, baseball games only last nine innings, your analogy was bad, end of discussion. Or am I missing something here? Snuffy scores and the crowd goes wild..... I'd like to thank Jesus and my mamma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLight Posted November 26, 2003 #11 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Chaos is a well defined concept in mathematics, it's the basis of fractals (discovered by the famous mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot, btw I attended to one of his conferences). Anyway, the chaos in mathematics as defined initially in the fractals is when you cannot predict if a serie is going to converge or not (see Mandelbrot's set for a nice picture of it). The butterfly effect is something different in nature: due to the number of parameters influencing the weather, it's impossible to predict the weather for long periods of time, and the image of a the air moved by butterfly wing was used to explain to the non-scientist that such a small event could indirectly start a storm later somewhere else (but that's a rather exagerate image). This is not chaos in the mathematical sense, it's simply an error of prediction due to an approximation in our modeling of weather. And you cannot really escape this approximation due to the impossibility to measure and modelise all the parameters for weather prediction. I think there's not much for fantasy in the notion of chaos, it's pretty simple (and well defined) to me as long as it remains in the mathematical context. TheLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzowalker Posted November 26, 2003 #12 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Chaos theory = Sh#t happens. Sorry, but that's about as scientific as I can get. I might fall down the steps and break my leg today, or I might not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nax Posted November 26, 2003 #13 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Neither team actually won the game, because who was to say that if they didn't keep playing that Team One would not have had 15 points, and Team two would have 12 points. As Bud Abbott said to Lou Costello, "Who's on first base." Watch that little skit on video if you get the chance to see it, you'll learn all you need to know about chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonfairie Posted November 26, 2003 #14 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Just 1 thing : I did'nt understand a single world ! I try realy hard to understand but no way. Perhap's I'm to stupid ! By the way, be nice with each other ! You don't have to be rude to express yourself (that one is for THe Namelessone and Snuffy Puffer), Calm down, breath and just said I don't agree with you because.... That's very easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowo Posted November 26, 2003 #15 Share Posted November 26, 2003 didnt Mandelbrot say that equation and fractal are etymological opposites? chaos is exactly that- chaos, everything we dont understand. Its not "scientific" or "mathematical" as these words relate to mans understanding of things. Chaos has no rules, no formula so lets not complicate things by attempting to credit maths or science by including it. Thats my word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLight Posted November 26, 2003 #16 Share Posted November 26, 2003 didnt Mandelbrot say that equation and fractal are etymological opposites? chaos is exactly that- chaos, everything we dont understand. Its not "scientific" or "mathematical" as these words relate to mans understanding of things. Chaos has no rules, no formula so lets not complicate things by attempting to credit maths or science by including it. Thats my word. The fact that you don't understand chaos doesn't mean it isn't very well understood from a mathematical standpoint (but you need a slightly above the average mathematical education for that). As I said, in mathematics chaos is when you cannot predict the convergence of a serie. So I leave the philosophical stuff about chaos to people that keep talking about what they don't know instead of actually studying what is already well known about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowo Posted November 27, 2003 #17 Share Posted November 27, 2003 OK here goes.... The fact that you don't understand chaos Yes, I dont understand how to predict the future, or the meaning of life either doesn't mean it isn't very well understood from a mathematical standpoint (but you need a slightly above the average mathematical education for that) But I dont understand exactly what is understood apart from the fact that it isnt understood. Do I need above average mathematical education to know this? As I said, in mathematics chaos is when you cannot predict the convergence of a serie. So, sorry, what is it again? I think I have an equation for this: serie convergence = ? So I leave the philosophical stuff about chaos to people that keep talking about what they don't know instead of actually studying what is already well known about it. OK, just remind me again what is well known about it? Look, Im not saying people shouldnt waste their time, each to their own and all that. But just because we have a name for something doesnt necessarily mean we understand it. And if our only understanding of something is that we cannot predict or quantify it, no amount of analysis is going to make that fact more impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryso Posted November 28, 2003 #18 Share Posted November 28, 2003 So why’s it called the Chaos Theory, and not Chaos Fact? Because it is all theoretical. Everything balances on the fact that this could happen, or this might happen if this equation was thrown into the ball game (not a reference to Nameless bizarre example). So you can toss about theories of butterflies flapping their wings, or if a ball game goes on endlessly - and so on and so forth. As far as I’m concerned, so-called mathematicians should stick to what they know, rather than try and explain everything with their little number games! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLight Posted November 28, 2003 #19 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Ok here we go (fractal set of Mandelbrot/Julia): first you have to know what a complex number is, a complex number is composed of 2 numbers, the real and imaginery parts (this is used to described two dimensions, you can picture the real part as X and the imaginery part as Y). Such a number is written: Z = X + iY (i is a special number such that i**2=-1 (**2 means squared). A serie is defined as a recursive function: Z_n = f(Z_(n-1)), so in the case of the fractal set, it's the following equation: Z_n = (Z_(n-1))**2 + C (where Z and C are complex numbers). We start with Z_0 = C Z_1 = Z_0**2 + C and so on. If the serie diverge (its modulus becomes superior to 2), we plot it in black. If after n iteration the serie hasn't diverged, we color it with a color representing its value. So the fractal aspect here is that a finite equation cannot computes if the Z_infinite diverges or converges (and if so to what value). You can see the display of computation I just described at: http://mathforum.org/alejandre/applet.mandlebrot.html But you see the problem is pretty simple, and the definition of chaos in this context is crystal clear. It's chaotic in the sense that it cannot be predicted by other means that actually computing it infinitely (which is not feasible apparently). TheLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted November 28, 2003 #20 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Wow, The_Light, if The Nameless One would only be here to be confronted with that. Me, I'm no math genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollum Posted November 29, 2003 #21 Share Posted November 29, 2003 But you see the problem is pretty simple, and the definition of chaos in this context is crystal clear. Who are you trying to kid????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowo Posted December 1, 2003 #22 Share Posted December 1, 2003 OK, so we know that we can create apparent chaos within mathematics. Surely we need only investigate pi to know this? But I find it an obscure leap of faith to believe that because an equation can create chaos then it must work the other way. Dont get me wrong, Mandelbrot and Julia did make some pretty pictures, but I dont feel that they made any scientific advancements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted December 1, 2003 #23 Share Posted December 1, 2003 So why’s it called the Chaos Theory, and not Chaos Fact? tsk tsk, Theory is a set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena Einstein made a few famous theories that seem to be considered fact.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimma Posted December 1, 2003 #24 Share Posted December 1, 2003 it's chaos, this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted December 1, 2003 #25 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Id say the light pretty much explained it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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