Who here supports Sitchens theory

[Abramelin]

Oh, and by the way, American Idol is a sad example of how television programming is being sucked rapidly down the toilet for people who are too easily entertained by the ridiculous. Its high priest is that vapid fop Simon Cowell. You can lump in equally meaningless drivel such as Hell's Kitchen, Survivor, The Amazing Race, America's Next Top Model, Big Brother, and numerous others.

There, I've vented. Sorry for this distracting interlude, but I hate hate hate reality TV.

Also sorry, bit I'd like to add I agree with you, kmt_sesh.

I am always waiting, no hoping someone will get this Gordon Ramsey and give him a piece of his own cake.

OK, back to aliens.

.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Abramelin

[Agent. Mulder]

You are in a defending/ranting stance actually...Where are your facts then? We are NOW looking into alternatives because eventually oil resources are going to dry up in the near future...and the only reason for that is again money...looking for alternatives that could be used in the first place...not to mention numerous technologies that didn't fit with the current political/economical/established schema at their time and weren't even funded and developed. What about medical and food industries? (Just as an example) Do you have an idea how they actually "work"? You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. Do not try to "factualise" it though to defend our modern atrocities. As for your last question:

umm, wind, solar and even water are sources that dont run out while supplying energy.

as for the food or medical industry, im not sure how thats related but i wasnt talking about it. however, i have an idea of how it works, but im not totally sure. just like you arent. you just saw some doc, or read a few books and think you know.

What does "prefering" has to do with anything? Is it "choose this" or "choose that" situation? "Sacrifice" or "accept every aspect of our modern ways"? You really didn't catch my drift.

......i dont catch it, becase like this statement, it makes no sense.

[innerverse]

umm, wind, solar and even water are sources that dont run out while supplying energy.

as for the food or medical industry, im not sure how thats related but i wasnt talking about it. however, i have an idea of how it works, but im not totally sure. just like you arent. you just saw some doc, or read a few books and think you know.

First of all my discussion has nothing personal against anyone's thesis, neither yours, yet you seem to make it personal. Your answer is totally irrelevant to what i wrote. I'll write it again because you probably missed it in the first place:

We are NOW looking into alternatives because eventually oil resources are going to dry up in the near future...and the only reason for that is again money...looking for alternatives that could be used in the first place...not to mention numerous technologies that didn't fit with the current political/economical/established schema at their time and weren't even funded and developed

What that has to do with what you wrote about wind, solar, water resources?

......i dont catch it, becase like this statement, it makes no sense.

Ok, i must be writing in chinese then...

Edited November 20, 2009 by innerverse

[Harte]

Oh, and by the way, American Idol is a sad example of how television programming is being sucked rapidly down the toilet for people who are too easily entertained by the ridiculous. Its high priest is that vapid fop Simon Cowell. You can lump in equally meaningless drivel such as Hell's Kitchen, Survivor, The Amazing Race, America's Next Top Model, Big Brother, and numerous others.

There, I've vented. Sorry for this distracting interlude, but I hate hate hate reality TV.

My point was that they didn't have anything more entertaining than the sky.

Unfortunately, neither do we!

Harte

[Agent. Mulder]

First of all my discussion has nothing personal against anyone's thesis, neither yours, yet you seem to make it personal. Your answer is totally irrelevant to what i wrote. I'll write it again because you probably missed it in the first place:

We are NOW looking into alternatives because eventually oil resources are going to dry up in the near future...and the only reason for that is again money...looking for alternatives that could be used in the first place...not to mention numerous technologies that didn't fit with the current political/economical/established schema at their time and weren't even funded and developed

What that has to do with what you wrote about wind, solar, water resources?

not only do you write chinese, you only read it as well.

i stated how those are Alternative power sources. thats all.

and theyll very well may be looking into more things to replace oil, because we know we'll probably run out sometime...Eventually. a long ways. so we'd need another substance to use, or find a way to replicate the oil.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Agent. Mulder

[Qoais]

Qoais, I don't think I understand why you seem to want to attribute the dawn of religion and higher thought to alien visitation. Putting aside the argument that aliens are sci-fi and not fact, you appear to be stealing from ancient man the ability to develop abstract concepts when in fact that was a natural evolution of our higher thought processes.

Absent the sciences we have today, ancient man used religion, sorcery, and magic to explain his world and his cosmos. Saying that they would find no significance in the movements of heavenly bodies might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how ancient people saw it! They could observe just like we can today that certain objects in the sky followed very different patterns, and it affected their belief patterns. Ancient peoples the world over used the stars as calendars to mark important events, just as the Egyptians knew that when Sopdet (Sirius) appeared in a certain position, the inundation was imminent. They could observe all of this on their own. They didn't need advanced gray-skinned creatures from Star Trek to tell them.

Early religions were very much an expression of the power possessed by the elite in most given societies, as Harte mentioned. This ideology is how the ruler displayed and manifested his control, in tangible and intangible ways. The elaborate rituals carried out by the state, in observance of natural and heavenly phenomena, were a direct expression of that ideology. This evolution of the state as seen in the Near East, Mesoamerica, and elsewhere evolved from the shamanistic practices of the tribal social unit. These are all developments of human kind, of man's natural inclination to know and to learn. We ought to give ancient people the credit they deserve, not chalk it up to some alien bouncing Neolithic peoples on his alien knee.

Firstly - I hate reality TV too - that's why the stupid question - what is an American Idol!!!! I don't watch it.

Ok - back to the nitty gritty:

Qoais, I don't think I understand why you seem to want to attribute the dawn of religion and higher thought to alien visitation

Oh boy kmt. I could answer this in a lot of ways! To me, the words "religion" and "higher thinking" don't belong in the same sentence. At least, not higher thinking as in philisophical higher thinking. Maybe higher thinking as in how to make my neighbors do what I want them to and give me stuff. I know, I'll tell them I know something and they'll think I'm special and will bring me food and I won't have to work. Very high minded, I have to admit But the point is, these "gods" in all the ancient cultures - seem to have come from the stars. It's not ME saying it, it's the ancient culture saying it - and they're saying it by living their whole lives dedicated to getting back to the stars - hence all the time spent studying the sky, aligning buildings, building monuments and temples and pyramids. Right? It is not me that thinks god is an alien.

Why is it that you think god is an alien? You do think that don't you because you, who has studied the Ancient Egyptians, who knows that they believed their Pharaoh was actually a god -can explain why you think their god/creator was an alien. Right? Because they had shafts in the pyramid to direct his soul in the right direction so he could get back to the star he came from? Because they wrote it on the walls that their whole life was consumed with getting back to where their gods came from? Because they believed their king was a descendant of that god, even though he came from some other country? I don't know if their god was gray pink or purple. It's their story and they didn't seem to be of a mind to make a note of what color they thought their god might be. They just wrote it down in detail on the walls, that their king was god, and he was going to go back to the homeland of the gods which was in the stars, and they'd bust their butts making sure it happened.

I'm not saying the stars weren't important to the ancients. Obviously they were. But not for farming. The Nile would flood when it was good and ready to flood and I'm sure having lived in the country all their lives, they had a pretty good idea when it was going to happen. The farmers would have known when to plant even if the priests hadn't come along and told them "hey - the Nile has flooded " = duh! What I'm saying is that their fixation with the stars was way more than just wanting to know a few days ahead of time if the rivers were going to flood. So - why the fixation with the stars and this burning desire to send their king to the stars when he died?

I can see the ancients worshipping the sun, because it gives heat and light, and makes things grow. I can see them worshipping water because it gives life, but I cannot see where they would get the idea that they came from the stars and that the king would go back to the stars after he died. Their whole life revolved around this one belief.

[KennyB]

innerverse, Where do you get the idea that oil is going to run out in the near future. I believe we just passed the 'peak oil' point, which in theory, means that we've used half the known oil sources. I think they really mean the 'easy oil' sources, if they are telling the truth, which is unlikely. Remember the 'gas shortages' we've already had and how phony they were? Oil is a finite recourse and will eventually run out, that is the cheap oil. It has been discovered that the Earth 'makes' hydrocarbons at depths of 30,000 ft or more. There are oil bearing shales and sands at several places around the world. The price may go up, but there is plenty of oil for many generations to come. What needs to be done is to utilize other sources of energy. Somebody needs to develope a good process to clean coal up so that burning it doesn't pollute as bad. There is plenty of coal everywhere. Where it's possible, geothermal sources should be utilized. There should be some way discovered to utilize the vast deposits of methane hydrate. Nuclear energy should be used more. There are many ways to generate power and extend the oil reserves, if you can buck the oil cartels. KennyB

[Abramelin]

Why did the ancients look up to the skies and assumed the gods were living there?

Because meteors fell from the skies, rain fell from the skies, hail stones fell from the skies, thunder and lightning came from the skies, the wind made the clouds in the skies rush across the sky, and so on.. so some mighty dudes must have been busy up there creating all this scheise to fall down on earth, or fly over.

And these mighty dudes they called "Gods".

Then there was the Moon, and some clever people saw that the hight of the tides at sea varied with the phases of the moon, hence, another god (most often a female god for obvious reasons... well, for me as a guy that is).

.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

Why did the ancients look up to the skies and assumed the gods were living there?

Because meteors fell from the skies, rain fell from the skies, hail stones fell from the skies, thunder and lightning came from the skies, the wind made the clouds in the skies rush across the sky, and so on.. so some mighty dudes must have been busy up there creating all this scheise to fall down on earth, or fly over.

And these mighty dudes they called "Gods".

Except they had a specific location they figured their gods came from - and the shaft in the pryamid supposedly points right to it so the king's soul doesn't get lost on the way!!

[Abramelin]

Except they had a specific location they figured their gods came from - and the shaft in the pryamid supposedly points right to it so the king's soul doesn't get lost on the way!!

Same thing: ask kmt-sesh about Sirius and the Nile. The 'god' up there, Sirius was 'responsible' for what the river Nile did on earth.

And it is not surpizing that a pharao with an ego to go with wanted to be seen as such a mighty god, or belonging to the same family, and then, after his death, would want to 'return' to his 'family'.

[danydandan]

innerverse, Where do you get the idea that oil is going to run out in the near future. I believe we just passed the 'peak oil' point, which in theory, means that we've used half the known oil sources. I think they really mean the 'easy oil' sources, if they are telling the truth, which is unlikely. Remember the 'gas shortages' we've already had and how phony they were? Oil is a finite recourse and will eventually run out, that is the cheap oil. It has been discovered that the Earth 'makes' hydrocarbons at depths of 30,000 ft or more. There are oil bearing shales and sands at several places around the world. The price may go up, but there is plenty of oil for many generations to come. What needs to be done is to utilize other sources of energy. Somebody needs to develope a good process to clean coal up so that burning it doesn't pollute as bad. There is plenty of coal everywhere. Where it's possible, geothermal sources should be utilized. There should be some way discovered to utilize the vast deposits of methane hydrate. Nuclear energy should be used more. There are many ways to generate power and extend the oil reserves, if you can buck the oil cartels. KennyB

Not really

I just finished reading Inside the Kingdom , I was surprised to find out that nearly 70 percent of alternative energy research and funding for it was coming from Suadi Arabia , The biggest exporter of oil in the world

[Abramelin]

Same thing: ask kmt-sesh about Sirius and the Nile. The 'god' up there, Sirius was 'responsible' for what the river Nile did on earth.

And it is not surpizing that a pharao with an ego to go with wanted to be seen as such a mighty god, or belonging to the same family, and then, after his death, would want to 'return' to his 'family'.

About that shaft you mentioned, Qoais...

I have this theory... the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Chinese.

Once, Hemanwhatsup (Egyptian) met Huat Hu (China man) in a port on the Red Sea. They were exchanging tales and trade, and after a beer or two things got a bit out of hand. Huat Hu then lit a firecracker and scared the living daylights out of Hemanwhatsup, just to see Hemanwahtsup's stinking black wig fly off from his head and see his bare skull.

Of course Hemanwhatsup asked - after his heartbeat had settled down to a healthy level - what this demonic demonstration was supposed to be.

Well, Huat Hu then told him it was just a mix of chemicals, and that they had a lot of fun with it in his home country. He also told him that they had rockets filled with the same stuff. "Rockets?", asked Hemanwhatsup. "Yeah, here, I will show you" said Huat Hu.

And so he did...

After Hemanwhatsup regained consciousness, he asked Huat Hu for the formula of the mix, for he had an idea... He knew his pharao wanted to return to his beloved family in the sky after he died. He asked Huat Hu a bit more about these 'rockets', said goodbye, and left for home.

So Hemanwhatsup asked for a talk with the pharao. After just a 100 whiplashes - for his insubordinance of wanting to even talk to a megalomaniac like the Pharao - he got permission.

Then he told the pharao of his plan: build a shaft in that dungeon you are building, let the priests stick this thing in your mummified a**, and shoot you back home.

After his demonstration - and after his feet getting fried to sinders for scaring the godlike Pharao to a point he thought he was going to see his ancestors way too early - the priests surounding the unconscious body of their Pharao thought, "hmmmmmmm, we think he's got something here".

So they build that shaft into the Great Pyramid while it was still being constructed.

OK, after some years the Pharao finally died, got mummified, and they put him head up into that shaft, with a rocket inserted into his rear end.

They lit the thing, and hoped the best of it.

But alas, their beloved Pharao did not end up at Sirius or his ancestors orbiting around there as moons to a planet, his mummy got blasted to smithereens, and that was end of story.

They caught Hemanwhatsup, killed him, ate his liver, and burned the rest of his body to ashes.

The shaft was then closed by several giant stones so no one would get any funny ideas about what could have happened to their Pharao.

[kmt_sesh]

Oh boy kmt. I could answer this in a lot of ways! To me, the words "religion" and "higher thinking" don't belong in the same sentence. At least, not higher thinking as in philisophical higher thinking. Maybe higher thinking as in how to make my neighbors do what I want them to and give me stuff. I know, I'll tell them I know something and they'll think I'm special and will bring me food and I won't have to work.

Well, when you figure out how to make that work, please share it with me!

Religion is a form of higher thinking. I spend a lot of time dissing modern religion myself, but the truth is, it requires what might not be readily apparent: complex, abstract thought. It's much more than just, "Is that plant edible?" or "I bet I can produce a better arrow point from this flint." Do you see what I'm trying to say? In ancient man it involved a discernment of the unexplainable and a deep-felt attempt at explanation.

More importantly, though, let me know how to make my neighbors feed and provide for me. I don't want to work.

Why is it that you think god is an alien? You do think that don't you because you, who has studied the Ancient Egyptians, who knows that they believed their Pharaoh was actually a god -can explain why you think their god/creator was an alien. Right? Because they had shafts in the pyramid to direct his soul in the right direction so he could get back to the star he came from? Because they wrote it on the walls that their whole life was consumed with getting back to where their gods came from?...

Wow now! Never in my life have I said an ancient god was an alien. You know me: I categorically refute any and all notions of alien intervention. I like to think that ancient man was intelligent enough to produce his achievements on his own, and in fact the evidence is in favor of his having done so. This includes the complex and elaborate belief systems that developed in ancient religions, considering much of the ancient architecture was a direct result of those belief systems.

I think we're looking at this in two very different ways. It's not even true that the ancients believed all of their gods were of the heavens; in fact, probably many more were terrestrial and associated with earthly, natural phenomena. But when we say a god was of the heavens, this does not mean he was by any means an alien. To the ancients the heavens (including the night sky, if not especially the night sky) were mysterious and profound. They were something set apart and superior to mankind. And that in essence is the very nature of the ancient gods: set apart and superior to mankind. This does not imply alien life forms, however. Strictly speaking, that's simply something coming from another planet, and possessing advanced technology. That is not related to ancient religions.

In those cases where the Egyptians viewed their kings as divine, which was more common in the Old Kingdom, his soul went to join the gods in heaven. That's merely a very generic way for us to express the belief. It's more complex than that, in reality. It was a very elaborate and convoluted process, as revealed in the Pyramid Texts. The king was someone set apart and superior to mankind, so in death he joined the gods. But in fact this system of beliefs changed significantly by the time of the New Kingdom, when the afterlife for kings was both in the underworld and in the heavens: joined with Osiris and Re, the kings spent the hours of night below, with Osiris, and the hours of day above, with Re.

I'm preaching again, so I've probably said enough.

[Qoais]

Write a book Abe - I'll buy it

[kmt_sesh]

About that shaft you mentioned, Qoais...

I have this theory... the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Chinese.

Once, Hemanwhatsup (Egyptian) met Huat Hu (China man) in a port on the Red Sea. They were exchanging tales and trade, and after a beer or two things got a bit out of hand. Huat Hu then lit a firecracker and scared the living daylights out of Hemanwhatsup, just to see Hemanwahtsup's stinking black wig fly off from his head and see his bare skull.

Of course Hemanwhatsup asked - after his heartbeat had settled down to a healthy level - what this demonic demonstration was supposed to be.

Well, Huat Hu then told him it was just a mix of chemicals, and that they had a lot of fun with it in his home country. He also told him that they had rockets filled with the same stuff. "Rockets?", asked Hemanwhatsup. "Yeah, here, I will show you" said Huat Hu.

And so he did...

After Hemanwhatsup regained consciousness, he asked Huat Hu for the formula of the mix, for he had an idea... He knew his pharao wanted to return to his beloved family in the sky after he died. He asked Huat Hu a bit more about these 'rockets', said goodbye, and left for home.

So Hemanwhatsup asked for a talk with the pharao. After just a 100 whiplashes - for his insubordinance of wanting to even talk to a megalomaniac like the Pharao - he got permission.

Then he told the pharao of his plan: build a shaft in that dungeon you are building, let the priests stick this thing in your mummified a**, and shoot you back home.

After his demonstration - and after his feet getting fried to sinders for scaring the godlike Pharao to a point he thought he was going to see his ancestors way too early - the priests surounding the unconscious body of their Pharao thought, "hmmmmmmm, we think he's got something here".

So they build that shaft into the Great Pyramid while it was still being constructed.

OK, after some years the Pharao finally died, got mummified, and they put him head up into that shaft, with a rocket inserted into his rear end.

They lit the thing, and hoped the best of it.

But alas, their beloved Pharao did not end up at Sirius or his ancestors orbiting around there as moons to a planet, his mummy got blasted to smithereens, and that was end of story.

They caught Hemanwhatsup, killed him, ate his liver, and burned the rest of his body to ashes.

The shaft was then closed by several giant stones so no one would get any funny ideas about what could have happened to their Pharao.

:lol: Damn, Abramelin, that's the funniest thing I've seen all day. Now I'm picturing some archaeologists entering the burial chamber of a pyramid for the first time, and they're very perplexed because the body of the ancient king is not in his sarcophagus but is instead splattered all over the wall above it. Needless to say, they're even more perplexed by the blackened bits of something combustible sticking out of the remains of the king's royal poop-chute.

[Qoais]

More importantly, though, let me know how to make my neighbors feed and provide for me. I don't want to work.

Here kmt_sesh - wear this. As long as you're wearing it - everyone will do anything you want!

Edited November 20, 2009 by Qoais

[Abramelin]

I will (EDIT: that's to Qoais asking me to write a book).

Maybe we all here should ask Terry Pratchett to write a book about what he thinks of the Egyptian history.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

kmt - let me try this again.

Firstly - an "alien" is just something or someone who is not indigenous to a specific area. It does not mean the person or thing in question, is from another planet. Supposedly, all creations came out of the void, so nothing is really alien to anything else. But it's a term we apply to indicate something is "not from around here". I am aware that YOU have never said the ancient god was an alien. I was saying that because you accept that the AE's believed their god came from the stars, you must also accept that he was an alien.

I was trying to point out that it was not me who thought the gods were alien - as in not being of this earth. The Egyptians themselves said it, and they spent all that money and time to build the pyramid so the king could go back to where he came from. The stars. This shows that they thought their god was an "alien"- not of this world. I'm saying this is too specific to be just an idea. They had to get it from somewhere.

Christians say when we die we go to heaven. But we don't give a specific point in the heavens as to where "heaven" is. But the AE's did. Whether they eventually decided they'd spend some time in different places, doesn't change the fact that they somehow got it into their heads that their god came from the stars.

I think we're looking at this in two very different ways. It's not even true that the ancients believed all of their gods were of the heavens;

Maybe not - but the most important one was. The one that dominated their whole lives for thousands of years. They didn't build a pyramid with a shaft going down into the ground so the king could go live in the underworld, did they?

I will (EDIT: that's to Qoais asking me to write a book).

Maybe we all here should ask Terry Pratchett to write a book about what he thinks of the Egyptian history.

Who's he?

[Abramelin]

Oh God, you don't know Terry Pratchett??

Google him, now !!!

He is the most funny, cynic, hilarious guy I ever read books of.

We need someone like him here, just to balance all those believers in ancient stuff.

No one will be insulted, we will all laugh.

I will bet you will.

[lakeview rud]

Abramelin, kmt; I sympathize with you re the lack of good programming. My son-in-law theorizes that we have reached a "tipping point" regarding stupid people taking over the earth. If you want a good laugh, rent the movie "Idiocracy" for taking this to the absurd.

Regarding Sitchen's theories they look "whack" to me but I have always felt the conventional thinking on the Asteroid Belt (Jupiter's gravity prevents remnants of the early solar system from coalescing) to be pretty lame. Are there any alternative theories (besides Sitchens)?

p.s. Qoais; nice hat!

[Qoais]

Thanks. I borrowed it from King Tut. Just for kmt sesh. Just so he can wear it for a while and have everyone do anything he wants so he doesn't have to work

[TheSearcher]

Qoais, Terry Pratchett is the man who writes the DiskWorld novels,bBrilliant reading to be honest, a great laugh about us all. Sadly he has been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's Disease. Here's a link to his website. You have a great sense of humour, you'll love his books.

By the way, I'm sure that Kmt will look quite royal with that nice hat For those who read Diskworld, I'm sure Kmt would be a great "Dean of the Unseen University"

[Abramelin]

They should change the ranks here for characters from his books, lol !!

[kmt_sesh]

Thanks. I borrowed it from King Tut. Just for kmt sesh. Just so he can wear it for a while and have everyone do anything he wants so he doesn't have to work

You know, I saw that thing in person when I worked the Tut exhibit here in Chicago in 2006. It's really quite beautiful. A lot of work was required to pry it out of the tall glass display case, but for some reason the moment I put it on I was surrounded by very angry armed guards. Turns out the damn thing didn't fit, anyway.

[Qoais]

Something must have gone wrong with the mind control mechanism because those guards should have been delighted to do anything you asked. I'm afraid we have no knowledgeable mechanic on duty to repair it either. Sorry kmt - you'll have to keep on working.