Make Europe Pay Us Tribute

[secondhand]

Huh? Where? When? How?

Basic History

[AROCES]

Basic History

Basic history?

How about FACTS.

Every country in Europe and part of Russia was occupied by the Germans except Switzerland, Spain and Sweden.

Now, is that how Britain held off the Nazi in Europe pretty much single handedly?

[m. Moe]

Reading this makes me wonder: has Europe ever actually thanked the US for WWII? I know I always hear about Europeans thanking Canada, but I never hear about them thanking the US. Hmm.

[Stalker]

Basic history?

How about FACTS.

Every country in Europe and part of Russia was occupied by the Germans except Switzerland, Spain and Sweden.

Now, is that how Britain held off the Nazi in Europe pretty much single handedly?

I don't know how, exactly, but Germany was never able to take them down.

Well, officially, we weren't assisting the English at the time of the Battle of Britain. That's why some of our citizens volunteered to fly in the RAF. They were the pretty much the only nation Germany couldn't conquer. Kudos to Churchill and the rest.

The nations you list had declared neutrality. I don't know about Sweden, but Spain (if I remember correctly) was friendly with Italy, and you just don't mess with Switzerland.

Unofficially, we were probably providing supplies and such. Not much beyond that, though.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Stalker

[m. Moe]

The nations you list had declared neutrality. I don't know about Sweden, but Spain (if I remember correctly) was friendly with Italy, and you just don't mess with Switzerland.

This may have something to do with them supporting the Facist side of the Spanish Civil war (I am not familiar with that war).

[Mekorig]

Franco was an ally of Mussolini and Hitler, but Spain wa not in condition to do anything during WWII. After that, his rabid anti-comunism make him the perfect ally for the USA in the region until democracy come back.

[Leonardo]

If anything... we owe the world.

Something in the region of 9 trillion dollars isn't it?

Edited March 21, 2007 by Leonardo

[Talon]

All it seems like you're doing it sterotyping all Americans based on a very few.

Actually I stated in my first sentence of my post that 'there is no shortage of Americans' not 'all Americans'. I am very aware that they probably do not make all Americans (my guess is they make up the entire Republican population) - however they are a very vocal group, and as such I am correct when I say 'there is no shortage' of them jumping up and down with the 'Americana' views and re-writes of History... there are enough of them doing it in this thread right now.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Talon

[The Gremlin]

I don't really think that Europe considers these things as "threats" really. I mean if you think about it there hasn't ever been a time of full peace in Europe or nearby countries. Somebody is always fighting with someone.

The US had a sense of sorting it out with the Civil War in the US and so to the US it seems that we have to sort it out in the rest of the world as well.

These countries have had thousands of years to stop fighting. Bottom line? They don't want to and no amount of convincing from the US is going to make them.

This is why Europeans are not "on our side" because there is no side. Its like you live in neighborhood where people drag race all night and you want to put a stop to it. So you petition you write congressmen yadda yadda yadda. Then one night a five year old kid gets killed crossing the street and you think "AHA now this will motivate them"

But it won't. The only thing that motivates most of the world is personal interest. Its funny though how when they US goes after it, then it seems like a horrible thing. But everyone else does it no problem. But unless someone drag racing killed "THEIR KID" or unless the cars woke them up all night, these neighbors are not going to get involved. Look at Rwanda? You see the US over there apologizing for failing them but I think most of these other countries just sorta "tisk tisk what a dreadful situation"

I think it is the arrogance of the "hero" that annoys other parts of the world. This war for example actually has the cajones to call itself "Operation Iraqi Freedom" rather than "Operation get Saddam out and stake a piece of power out for us"

It is what it is. So why do we keep trying to pretend its about the freedom or the "principle of the thing'

If the US stopped caring so much what everyone thought, and stopped feeling guilty because we are the most powerful country right now at such a short time. We need to have a spine, not a soap box.

Europe doesn't "owe us" jack, we wouldn't have gone into any of the things we did if not for our interests.

We need to wake up and smell the coffee. We don't owe anyone any explanation. We need to do for ourselves, just like everyone else and stop pretending we are the civic hero who is out at 4 in the morning chasing down drag racers because all we are doing is making a lot more noise and acting like "king of the street"

Go home and be quiet. Stay out of other people's business and if you DO get involved admit you are the greedy little b****** you know you are.

I think we would have a lot less stress this way.

spot on, you've hit the nail right on the fudgepacking head there.

[NiCkC818]

Something in the region of 9 trillion dollars isn't it?

The 9 trillion dollars? Can you guess where some of that debt came from? O yea... WWII... Good Game I win.

[Mr Slayer]

Make Europe Pay Us Tribute

by Patrick J. Buchanan - February 23, 2007

May be Pat Buchanan has a point about this one.

You actually take Buchanan seriously? After all he has said before this?

[...] Europe doesn't "owe us" jack, we wouldn't have gone into any of the things we did if not for our interests. [...]

Wow! Well said.

If I were to say the same thing, I would probably turn out as ungrateful.

[Caesar]

This is nonsense. I don't think Europe should pay us tribute.

[Torchwood]

This is nonsense. I don't think Europe should pay us tribute.

Good, cos we're not going to! How would they even force that to happen anway? "pay up or be bombed!!!" Hasnt worked in the east...

Anway we've paid for all the materials we needed, and if the americans were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts they wouldnt have charged interest! America has already proffited hugley from WW2, all that military hardware you built was paid for and was a huge boost to your economy! Plus you got long term allies and missile bases to scare the USSR with. And now this prat buchanan demands our kids pocket money too no doubt!

Oh and the Russians won WW2, we just bought them another year to get ready. BTW if the germans had invaded the UK, ww2 would have ended 4 years earlier...despite Hitlers beliefs the Germans could not have succesfuly invaded Britain. He didnt have the resources, the equipment or the planning for operation sealion, he tried to do it in three months with no specialist equipment. And that was assuming he could beat the RAF first...which he couldnt!. By comparison Overlord was smaller, and took 3 years to plan and we had to build tons of specialist equipment (based on our learning curve at Dieppe etc) to actually pull it off!

Anyway do you stil get paid if you turn up late to everything?

And as for the war in Iraq now (the one that bush declared had ended years ago!) Britain wants out for various reason, starting with "we had no business being there" and ranging to "why is our prime minister so eager to go down on GWBush?". I for one would like to think the Uk is capabale of determining its own actions and isnt simply going to blindly follow the USA into every fight it starts!

This fight was started over Oil, the coalition wanted a secure regime to buy its oil from, (and to boost oil prices, which is fair enough when u consider Binladen and Bush, and probably Blair too by now are heavily involved in the oil business) or possibly just to tap it at the source. This it has failed to do, and now the situation is even less stable! No wonder we want out. Now its apparently a religious war, even BLair invokes God when he takes about it! And that is stupid, A war with God involved has no winner and a lot of losers! What is the USA trying to do, join the Crusades which ended centuries ago? Late again boys.

THe only reason the USA goes to war is for Profit. Pure and simple. However its quite happy to make itself look like a God Blessed Hero on the side, cos that encourages more poor lads to sign up and get shot at.

who is this idiot buchanan anyway? Seems to be a clueless individual who actually believes that everything in the newspapers/discussed by politicians effects the life of the average bloke on the street, but it really doesnt. How could kosovo or Bosnia become an inurgency Europe cant handle? What are they gonna do, invade everyone else? I doubt it.

And what is Europe? Its a loose group of nations whos vendettas go back centuries. We dont have the same views on everything, we dont get on very well, most arent involved in the east anyway, some dont care, others have more important things to do, essentially there is no politcal entity called Europe. Europe is a great idea but it hasnt happened yet, so you can demand tribute all you want Buchanan!

Edit; hope u found that as tongue in cheek as I intended!

And its just occured to me that a major reason why We think that all Americans are convinced the beat the Nazis single handed can be attributed to a single episode of the sit com Friends. Caused quite a row that did IIRC. We need to communicate better, sit coms cant do it!

Edited March 23, 2007 by Torchwood

[Mr Black]

Erm, no, the US arsed about for a couple of years while Britain held off the Nazis in Europe pretty much single handedly.

And it wasn't "you", "me" or "us" that had anything to do with it, it was our grandfathers and great-grandfathers who were ten times the people we are.

Your comment is annoying at best, the British have had pretty much 1000 years of war with the French, yet I don't hate them, they're awesome. Go to France, learn a bit of the language and you'll find one of the friendliest people on Earth. Just don't do what many Americans I know have done, wandering around Paris in an I Heart USA cap, shouting about how everthing is cheaper and better "back home" and yelling about how ungrateful they are, before returning home and complaining about how "goddam arrogant" they are.

Here here!

[Essan]

Basic history?

How about FACTS.

Every country in Europe and part of Russia was occupied by the Germans except Switzerland, Spain and Sweden.

Now, is that how Britain held off the Nazi in Europe pretty much single handedly?

Yes - we were the only country in Europe that opposed Germany and remained unconquered. Malta, also unconquered did not have independance at that time. Ireland was also unoccupied but remained neutral.

However, a total of 9 Americans did help us ......... This is a list of foreign pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain - which scuppered Hitler's invasion plans and allowed us to provide the necessary bridgehead for the eventual allied liberation of Europe:

Australia (32 pilots)

Barbados (1)

Belgium (28)

Canada (112)

Czechoslovakia (88)

France (13)

Ireland (10)

Jamaica (1)

Newfoundland (now a province of Canada) (1)

New Zealand (127)

Poland (145)

Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) (3)

South Africa (25)

US (9)

[Lorelei]

Being an American who has been living in Europe for the last 8 1/2 years, I find it hilarious when Americans think they are better than Europeans or vice versa.

Umm..did you forget that we are the SAME people? America was formed from Europeans who fled their homelands. We are kin, so, get over it already!

[GreyWeather]

Reading this makes me wonder: has Europe ever actually thanked the US for WWII? I know I always hear about Europeans thanking Canada, but I never hear about them thanking the US. Hmm.

If anyone, anyone needs thanking for WW2. It's the Russians, they single-handedly pushed the Germans back from the east and marched on into Berlin - the result of this was the suicide of Adolf Hitler. So the Russains, although coming in 2 - 3 years after the war began, won WW2.

The west never crossed into German territory, the USA were new at war on such a large scale and so at the time only had a small army, Britain and France held off the Germans for 3 years, USA's entrance only helped tip the scale slightly in the fight against Nazi Germany. However, Germany's forces were stretched on two fronts, meaning that if Hitler never marched into Russia he could have focused all his forces on the Western border, ultimetly winning the war against the West.

[AROCES]

Yes - we were the only country in Europe that opposed Germany and remained unconquered. Malta, also unconquered did not have independance at that time. Ireland was also unoccupied but remained neutral.

However, a total of 9 Americans did help us ......... This is a list of foreign pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain - which scuppered Hitler's invasion plans and allowed us to provide the necessary bridgehead for the eventual allied liberation of Europe:

Australia (32 pilots)

Barbados (1)

Belgium (28)

Canada (112)

Czechoslovakia (88)

France (13)

Ireland (10)

Jamaica (1)

Newfoundland (now a province of Canada) (1)

New Zealand (127)

Poland (145)

Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) (3)

South Africa (25)

US (9)

YUP, now that is a fact. The Nazi was not able to cross the seas and take Britain, and the British gave them a fight alright.

But held off the Nazi in Europe is something no one was able to do then.

Edited March 23, 2007 by AROCES

[Mars]

who is this idiot buchanan anyway?

You never heard of Pat Buchanan? Everyone knows he is a somewhat insane racist. However I found the article funny and interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan

Edited March 23, 2007 by Mars

[Mr Slayer]

If you want to hear and see about that retard for yourselves, just type in "Pat Buchanan" on youtube.

There are some hillarious (and at the same time very sad) clips from his various rants.

[Torchwood]

Essen: did u just copy that list of the Battle of Britain film? Great film, especially like the Polish Training Squadron disobeying orders to give the huns a kicking! "repeat pleze"...

I think Ill pass on Buchanan, the mans obviously several nuts short of a fruitcake.

[Lt_Ripley]

Yes, I can see it now "Thank you America for pulling us into your war and getting dozens, if not hundreds, of our people killed while in the process making us look like warmongering arseholes".

Go liberate the Congo, Sudan or some other nation stricken with war and poverty and maybe you'll get some praise. Till then **** (America, not anyone in-particular)

more than 60% of Americans including myself agree with you. Iraq is a war that was unnecessary and led by greed and lies.

as for war with the Japanese. most Americans ignorantly think it was us against Japan alone. the fact is that war started between China and Japan long before hand and the only countries that helped in the fighting then were Russia and Germany. Only when we got attacked at Pearl Harbor , after the war had long escalated did we get involved. As did Great Britian and France.

( it wasn't an officially declared war until the japanese hit pearl harbor however.)

As for Germany - America didn't win it for Europe . the Russians did. We as Americans came in on the tail end of it all. People here in the US don't realise the difference between the American Military where half of our budget goes ( more so than any other country) compared to most other countries where less than 10% of thier budget goes. Europe wasn't financially prepared to wage war like America had been. Americans also forget that europe was still recovering from the first world war . We haven't had to deal with full scale war on our lands since the civil war and even that wasn't all encompassing but it was extreamly taxing financially and humanly.

about d-day and all the films that show American troops on the beaches of Normandy. it wasn't only Americans , it was five infantry divisions -two US, two British and one Canadian. yet most forget this. We also tend to forget that we put off getting into the European theater because America didn't want to get involved.

to those who think France just rolled over during wwII is further proof of ignorance of history. and remember. if it weren't for France we'd still be English . ( not necessarily a bad thing )

From Gen Anthony Zinni, ( USMC ret. ) Zinni replaced Schwarzkopf as head of CentCom and was in turn replaced by Franks when he retired -

"The third mistake, I think was one we repeated from Vietnam, we had to create a false rationale for going in to get public support. The books were cooked, in my mind. The intelligence was not there. I testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee one month before the war, and Senator Lugar asked me: "General Zinni, do you feel the threat from Saddam Hussein is imminent?" I said: "No, not at all. It was not an imminent threat. Not even close. Not grave, gathering, imminent, serious, severe, mildly upsetting, none of those."

http://www.cdi.org/friendlyversion/printve...am/document.cfm

Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

Edited March 24, 2007 by Lt_Ripley

[dantheman2435]

I believe Europe does owe us after all the souls that were lost fighting their war. I would cash in on that debt now.

Maybe you are the guys who owe them something, Them fighting their butts off in both World Wars and you didn't step in until after Thousands or Millions had died.

[NiCkC818]

Maybe you are the guys who owe them something, Them fighting their butts off in both World Wars and you didn't step in until after Thousands or Millions had died.

Wasn't our war... Serves them right for being ignorant enough to fight in the first place.

[Torchwood]

Wasn't our war... Serves them right for being ignorant enough to fight in the first place.

Ignoarant? WE tried to avoid war but we could hardly stand by and watch Hitler walk into any damn country he wanted! We warned him there would be a war if he went into Poland, but he went anyway. How is that European ignorance?