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Mugen

Iran 'seizes' 15 British Marines

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Unlimited

they sure are toying with us....war should be right around the corner...

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Aztec Warrior
After looking at the most recient BBC news report on the crissis, with a map. It is apparent that part of my previous post was wrong. That the incident happened in the open sea of the Persian Gulf, rather than in the waters of the Shatt al-Arab. However the rest of my post stands.

The photo posted on the BBC website shows a sailor in the Royal Navy Lynx helicopter sitting on the door of the Lynx holding a GPS unit. As the Lynx hovered over the ship being inspected. With a video camera taping the inspection of the ship and the GPS and its coodinates in the same frame. Which is standard proceadure. Showing the inspected ship was 1.5 sea miles east of the Iranian boarders. The Cornwall then radioed the postition of the ship to the Iranians, who said the ship was infact within Iraqi waters. Then later called back that the inspected ship was in Iranian waters.

With the release of the photos of the inspected ship with the GPS reciever in view, the British have ratcheted up the pressure in the Iranian Government. Now nations have the proof of the Royal Marines/ Royal Navy seamen positions during this encounter. It also presents the risk that the Iranians will harden their position since they stand to lose face if they give in. Even in the face if direct evidence.

As far as not firing on the 6 Iranian boats. These speed boats have a speed of some 40 - 45 mph/65 - 80kph. And can travel the distance from the border to the Royal Marines in less than 3 minutes. So you have 2 - 3 minutes to deciede if you are going to start a full shooting war. And with the heavy machine guns on the R.G. boats, they could shoot up and kill the Royal Marines in their boats And even theaten the Lynx. And what would the Cornwall respond back with, the Harpoon misiles may not home on a small rubber boat, remember the Harpoon is a radar homer, and there is not a lot of metal in a rubber craft. Not to mention that it might lock on to the wrong rubber boat. The Goalkeeper gun system was out of range by 2 miles. It would have to be the Vickers 4.5 inch/120mm cannon. But if the Iranian boats were close to the R.N. zodiacs, the Marines would be under fire by their own ship.

But now the ground rules are different. Any thing done by the Revolutionary Guards will be deemed hostile. There will be one radio warning. And if not obayed, the Gulf sharks will have a good meal courtecy of the R.G.

So the zodiacs were about two miles from the HMS Cornwall. And the Lynx could do nothing? 2 x torpedoes or 4x Sea Skua missiles or 2 x depth charges.

Attack: 8 x TOW ATGM. No machine gun on the Lynx? Aren't the zodiacs equipped with heavy machine guns?

linked-image

Thanks for the clarification.

In my own irrelevant opinion I dont trust either side to tell the story straight, each side will try and demonize the other. If both sides story keeps changing like they have, it indicates to me that both sides are hiding something. It is very easy for the military to hide what actually happened and very plausible that Iran is just being belligerent. I dont trust either side to tell the truth.

Just like with the Israel/Lebanon war, it started with soldiers being captured. At the beginning the story was all over the place... captured inside Israel, an Israeli official saying it happened across the border in Lebanon, then the story changes again, then the war starts to rescue the soldiers, then the reason for going to war changes from rescuing the prisoners to eliminating a threat, then war ends and we never hear about the captured soldiers again.

Basically both sides will tell their story and the people will agree with the story that makes their bad guys look like... the bad guys. To me its all just politics(lies).

Anyways thats my $0.02 but thanks again, I dont watch tv so I dont see all the video footage the news shows.

There not both lying. There is one truth, and more than likely it resides with the British.

I don't think you can blame them. What would USA do if it saw armed forces of another nation in the gulf of mexico .. arrest them ,exactly the same as iran has done . It's naive to think the uk and usa can threaten iran subversively and put troops right up on their borders like this. USA and UK wouldn't stand for it if it happened to them , so I believe Iran has every right to hold these soldiers. Either they were stupid or provocative or surveillance to be in the area they were caught and i doubt the british troops are stupid .

When has the US ever held Mexican or Canadian troops or police who strayed across the border? This incident was obviously premediated by the RG.

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Spurious George
There not both lying. There is one truth, and more than likely it resides with the British.

How do you know? I dont believe there is ever "one truth", especially not in politics. There are many perspectives and most people simply agree with the perspective that is agreeable to their side.

Maybe we can get a better perspective by looking back to the June 2004 incident. Anyone recall the events of that incident?

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BrucePrime
How do you know? I dont believe there is ever "one truth", especially not in politics. There are many perspectives and most people simply agree with the perspective that is agreeable to their side.

Maybe we can get a better perspective by looking back to the June 2004 incident. Anyone recall the events of that incident?

If I recall, the soldiers were released in about three days. But they were forced to undergo mock-executions, and confess to whatever crimes they supposedly committed on TV. The dust settled quickly and quietly on that one.

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BrucePrime
I don't think you can blame them. What would USA do if it saw armed forces of another nation in the gulf of mexico .. arrest them ,exactly the same as iran has done . It's naive to think the uk and usa can threaten iran subversively and put troops right up on their borders like this. USA and UK wouldn't stand for it if it happened to them , so I believe Iran has every right to hold these soldiers. Either they were stupid or provocative or surveillance to be in the area they were caught and i doubt the british troops are stupid .

The threats have been flying back and forth, it is not just on the US/UK's side. And there is evidence Iran has been supplying Iraqi insurgents with weapons; outside of a few arrests of Iranian agents inside of Iraq, the US has done little about this.

And the Mexican army occassionally crosses the border into the US. Nothing big is ever made of this.

Since the available evidence points at the sailors being in Iraqi waters, then Iran has no right to hold them, no matter how much the West has been threatening them.

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Birmingham
So the zodiacs were about two miles from the HMS Cornwall. And the Lynx could do nothing? 2 x torpedoes or 4x Sea Skua missiles or 2 x depth charges.

Attack: 8 x TOW ATGM. No machine gun on the Lynx? Aren't the zodiacs equipped with heavy machine guns

Boy you really want those British Marines and Seamen dead. And then we would be watching a full-out war. Which may happen anyhow. First, the Lynx was several miles away doing a visual inspection of the next ship in line. Cornwall was closer to 4 miles away. The Sea Skua is a great weapon, but is a radar homing weapon. And as found out during the Kuwait war, there is not enough metal in a zodiac to home in on. The Royal Navy zodiacs had one light, .30 cal machine gun. The Iranian rubber boats had 6 heavy .56 cal machine guns with twice the range. (the Iranian R.G. does not care if they over gun their boats and risk shaking out the bottom of their boats from the recoil). And that extends to the Lynx, who would be having holes punched in it before the .30 cal got within range. And to segest using a Stingray torpedo is non starter. No torpedo will find, let along hit something that draws a foot of water. The whole desire of the British is to preserve the lives of their personal. Shooting up the area with the Marines in the middle would not solve it. Its like bombing the American embassy in Tehran during the 1979-1980 hostage taking to kill the "students" holding the American diplomats. Which would kill the students, along with all the American hostages inside the building.

As far as the recient developments, Looks like the female seamen will not be released as the Iranian government had said before. I think the Revolutionary Guards issued their veto over the transfer. British diplomats will be allowed to visit the detained personal. But only after the UK admits its mistake. Which is unlikely since the Blair administration released their coordinates yesterday showing that they were in Iraqi waters.

If I was Tony Blair (and it probibly a good thing I'm not the P.M.) I would start ratcheting up the military end of things while maintaining the diplomatic angle. I would send a Royal Navy fleet of 3-4 type 42 anti-air destroyers. Along with 5-7 type 23's and type 22, batch III's to the Indian Ocean. With the inplyed threat to embargo all ships going in and out of Iranian ports on the high seas. I would also get operating rights in the middle east.to base several squadrens of Tornados and Eurofighters. And also call on the Commonwelth to help. Show Iran just how serious the situation is. And how serious events will be for Iran. Plus I would start a strong attempt to inform the Iranian of how close their government is to taking them to war. And what will happen to them if and when war breaks out.

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Spurious George
If I recall, the soldiers were released in about three days. But they were forced to undergo mock-executions, and confess to whatever crimes they supposedly committed on TV. The dust settled quickly and quietly on that one.

Yes but were they found to be in Iraqi or Iranian waters in that indcident? When the dust settled did the British proove whether their sailors were infact in Iraqi waters and the detention of their sailors was unprovoked?

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BrucePrime
Yes but were they found to be in Iraqi or Iranian waters in that indcident? When the dust settled did the British proove whether their sailors were infact in Iraqi waters and the detention of their sailors was unprovoked?

I don't think it was ever resolved as to who was in the wrong, probably because the situation was defused so quickly.

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President-Elect Acidhead

War! war! war! will not solve anything..

Israel tried it last year on Lebanon when 2 soldiers were kidnapped as well.

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Spurious George
I don't think it was ever resolved as to who was in the wrong, probably because the situation was defused so quickly.

Agreed it wasnt resolved but the British were throwing excuses around like "well the weather was really bad, so they might have gone into Iranian water" and "the sailors may have mistakenly drifted across the border".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3835313.stm

Cant trust either of them in my opinion, which isnt much to say about Iran but the British ouch!

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Stalker

The Marines were less than a mile within the border, correct? So would it really have been so hard for Iran to have just said "Get the hell out." and escorted them back over the border?

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Birmingham

When you want to embarrass the UK. And use hostages to run the British nose in it. And when the hostages are being used as bargening chips - Telling them to Get The Hell Out was not in the cards.

If you remember earlier in the month when a company of Swiss soldiers accidently crossed into Liechtenstein during nightime training by a couple of hundred meters, A Liechtenstein policeman came up to the Swiss troops, 170 men, and told the offer in command "Sorry old chap, but your in our country. Your suppose to be over there". They then checked a map, the Swiss recognized they were outside their contry and inside the boundries of another country, saluted the policeman and rather sheepisly turned his men around and quick marched back into Switzerland. And the policeman returned to his police station and filed a report. Or at least this is how things are suppose to be done.

But here we are dealing with a government that has its own rules. And changes them (like they changed the location of the searched ship) when it fits them.

Edited by Birmingham

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Bob26003

Discord over gulf borders runs deep, Interesting

Hopefully the Media learned it's lesson about believing what comes out of the White House :tu:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...-home-headlines

LONDON — Britain and Iran on Thursday hardened their positions in their dispute over 15 British sailors and marines captured in Persian Gulf waters that maritime experts say remain among the most disputed geographical boundaries in the world.

Both nations broadened their attack, with Britain winning a statement of "grave concern" over the detention from the United Nations Security Council and Iran releasing a new letter purportedly written by Leading Seaman Faye Turney that injects the issue of the war in neighboring Iraq.

"Isn't it time for us to start withdrawing our forces from Iraq and let them determine their own future?" says the letter, addressed to Britain's Parliament.

Tehran displayed charts and satellite readings on state television purporting to show that the small British rafts that had been patrolling the northern gulf near the mouth of the Shatt al Arab waterway had crossed into Iranian territory six times before being seized.

"We intend to find out the reason for their illegal entry into Iranian territorial waters," said Ali Larijani, Iran's national security council chief and its top nuclear negotiator.

Larijani said any British attempts to pursue the case through "media propaganda and political hue and cry" would cause delays in Iran's original plan for an early release of Turney, the only woman among those being held.

-Edit-

Edited by Lottie
Please only quote as much of the article as is necessary.

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Clocker

This doesn't really surprise me. Though in my time in the navy of my country, we didn't take intruders as hostages; we sternly told them to leave our waters. Which is, I suppose, how situations like this are usually handled. It is a less conflicting way to do things, I would say ;)

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truthorder

A lot of people aren't getting the big picture of the American presence in Iraq.

I know this article is about Iran and Britain, but the line..............

"Isn't it time for us to start withdrawing our forces from Iraq and let them determine their own future?" says the letter, addressed to Britain's Parliament.

causes me to state yet once again exactly WHY there are foreign forces in Iraq.

WMD was only a ploy to take over control of that country. I'm NOT disputing that. We KNEW that Saddam had either destroyed or moved

the stash somewhere else. We KNEW that beforehand. I mean seriously.....Hussein new MONTHS beforehand that that was the reason

America was going to invade because the administration publicized it over a year beforehand!!!!

But now I'm going to tell you why it is NECESSARY for US troops to remain in Iraq.

It's for the same underlying reason that they were sent in in the first place.

What happened in 2006? Hezbollah attacked Israel. And who funds Hezbollah? IRAN.

Which country sits between Hezbollah in Lebanon and Iran?

You guessed it........IRAQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We didn't invade Iraq to topple Hussein's regime. We invaded Iraq to put a dent in the pipeline of weapons that had been building up for YEARS

between Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Which is EXACTLY the reason why we're still there today.

There are more troops on the Iraq/Syrian border than there are in ANY Iraqi cities, towns, outposts.

But you won't hear about this in the media because the media wants the big story.

This is all to protect Israel, which I am COMPLETELY in support of.

If we weren't in Iraq, then Hezbollah would have a virtually unlimited supply of rockets and weaponry to fire into Israel and would further destabilize an already destabilized situation.

There is only so much the Israelis are going to take before they drop the bomb on someone.

Mark my words.

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Caesar

that makes more sense then "we did it for oil" or "the no bid contracts with Haliburton" :lol:

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Bob26003

=====================================

Here is the first video: Faye Turney

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=357529&fr=

=================================

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/news...ilor_confession

Second Video confession

A second filmed 'confession' from one of 15 British sailors held in Iran has been broadcast on Iranian state TV.

The footage on al-Alam TV shows one of the male sailors, identified as Nathan Thomas Summers, admitting that he and his colleagues entered Iranian waters during operations last Friday.

He has apparently apologised for crossing the Iraqi-Iranian border while engaging in what the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has described as 'routine' operations in the Persian Gulf last week.

The official Iranian news agency quotes the sailor as saying that he 'apologises to the Iranian people' for entering their territory and said he has been treated well by those who have been holding him for the last week.

'We entered Iranian waters without permission and were arrested by Iranian border guards and I would like to apologise to the Iranian people for this,' IRNA news agency quotes the Briton as saying.

'Since we were arrested on Friday March 23rd 2007 everything has been very good and I am completely satisfied about the conditions.'

Today's broadcast comes after Iranian authorities released a second letter purportedly from Leading Seaman Faye Turney, 26, the only female member of the navy personnel captured, calls for British forces to prepare an exit strategy from Iraq.

Edited by Bob26003

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Bob26003

Caesar, please don't say you actually believe we would be in Iraq if it wasn't sitting on all that oil.

Hell, Genocides happen all the time, far worse than Saddam (even with our help) could ever dream of. Yet do we intervene: No. There are evil dictators everywhere.

But none of them sitting on a big jackpot.

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EmpressStarXVII

What an odd situation indeed. I tend to question things before I come up with my conclusion about this. Was she coached, was a confession "coerced" out of her, was the video of them eating and sitting marrily a set up? If America can have prison torture scandles, I'm sure any other country can, but she doesn't appear harmed in anyway.

I hope the confession is truth rather than something she was made to say.

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Bob26003

Like I said Before Empress, I think the really bad thing about all this is that we can't believe what our Gov. tells us. :(

I wish I didn't have to wonder if this was just another ploy to justify another War. I really do.

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Unlimited

day 8?....they are apologizing on tv for being in iraqi waters...so much for the allies....these guys are already forgotten....

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Aztec Warrior
Boy you really want those British Marines and Seamen dead. And then we would be watching a full-out war. Which may happen anyhow. First, the Lynx was several miles away doing a visual inspection of the next ship in line. Cornwall was closer to 4 miles away. The Sea Skua is a great weapon, but is a radar homing weapon. And as found out during the Kuwait war, there is not enough metal in a zodiac to home in on. The Royal Navy zodiacs had one light, .30 cal machine gun. The Iranian rubber boats had 6 heavy .56 cal machine guns with twice the range. (the Iranian R.G. does not care if they over gun their boats and risk shaking out the bottom of their boats from the recoil). And that extends to the Lynx, who would be having holes punched in it before the .30 cal got within range. And to segest using a Stingray torpedo is non starter. No torpedo will find, let along hit something that draws a foot of water. The whole desire of the British is to preserve the lives of their personal. Shooting up the area with the Marines in the middle would not solve it. Its like bombing the American embassy in Tehran during the 1979-1980 hostage taking to kill the "students" holding the American diplomats. Which would kill the students, along with all the American hostages inside the building.

As far as the recient developments, Looks like the female seamen will not be released as the Iranian government had said before. I think the Revolutionary Guards issued their veto over the transfer. British diplomats will be allowed to visit the detained personal. But only after the UK admits its mistake. Which is unlikely since the Blair administration released their coordinates yesterday showing that they were in Iraqi waters.

If I was Tony Blair (and it probibly a good thing I'm not the P.M.) I would start ratcheting up the military end of things while maintaining the diplomatic angle. I would send a Royal Navy fleet of 3-4 type 42 anti-air destroyers. Along with 5-7 type 23's and type 22, batch III's to the Indian Ocean. With the inplyed threat to embargo all ships going in and out of Iranian ports on the high seas. I would also get operating rights in the middle east.to base several squadrens of Tornados and Eurofighters. And also call on the Commonwelth to help. Show Iran just how serious the situation is. And how serious events will be for Iran. Plus I would start a strong attempt to inform the Iranian of how close their government is to taking them to war. And what will happen to them if and when war breaks out.

No I don't want British seaman or marines dead. I never said that. It just seems to me, the British learned nothing from the 2004 encounter. From what you described and I happed to agree with is the fact, the British were in a bad position and unable to protect their troops.

What an odd situation indeed. I tend to question things before I come up with my conclusion about this. Was she coached, was a confession "coerced" out of her, was the video of them eating and sitting marrily a set up? If America can have prison torture scandles, I'm sure any other country can, but she doesn't appear harmed in anyway.

I hope the confession is truth rather than something she was made to say.

Mock executions and other forms of non-physical torture will get someone to say anything. Let the soldiers say anything to gain their freedom, and later when they are released they can come forward with the real story.

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Unlimited

wheres the UN on this?...or nato?..or bush?...these guys were being hosted by iraq and got kidnapped..this is ludicrous....

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Aztec Warrior
wheres the UN on this?...or nato?..or bush?...these guys were being hosted by iraq and got kidnapped..this is ludicrous....

Yesterday, the UN security counsil issued a unanamous statement of "grave concern' over the captured soldiers. But didn't not agree with the UK in demanding an immediate release (Russia baulked).

Today Blair says we must be patient, and the only outcome is the safe return of the soldiers. I think the UK told Bush not to get involved.....yet.

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Unlimited
Yesterday, the UN security counsil issued a unanamous statement of "grave concern' over the captured soldiers. But didn't not agree with the UK in demanding an immediate release (Russia baulked).

Today Blair says we must be patient, and the only outcome is the safe return of the soldiers. I think the UK told Bush not to get involved.....yet.

the west was so quick to invade iraq when saddam really posed no threat...now you've got Iran who is a constant threat and a budding nuclear threat.. playing games with you?....someone needs to step up here....

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