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Mugen

Iran 'seizes' 15 British Marines

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BrucePrime
Like I said Before Empress, I think the really bad thing about all this is that we can't believe what our Gov. tells us. :(

I wish I didn't have to wonder if this was just another ploy to justify another War. I really do.

While you should always take what the government says with a healthy-dose of skepticism, you shouldn't automatically always assume something is a ploy or a conspiracy. Especially in a case like this, since it seems pretty clear cut the Iranians are in the wrong; after all, their initial coordinates showed they picked up the British sailors in Iraqi waters.

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BrucePrime
the west was so quick to invade iraq when saddam really posed no threat...now you've got Iran who is a constant threat and a budding nuclear threat.. playing games with you?....someone needs to step up here....

So quick? There was a build-up of more than a year. We couldn't have better told Iraq we were going to invade if we had sent them a Hallmark card. Yes, it appears there were no WMD (or they were moved), and this was a mistake (that most of the world made in assuming Iraq did have WMD), but according to the Kay and Duelfer reports, Iraq posed more of a threat than anyone realized, even without WMDs.

But you are right about playing games. Iran is, and has been for a long time, a larger threat. Now they believe the US and UK to be weakened, politically and militarily, and feel they have world opinion on their side. They think this is now the best time to flex their own muscle.

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Birmingham

Unfortunatly, the days of protection for POWs is over. Even in WW-II, the Germans treated western Allies deciently and mostly proper (though the German treatment of Russian POWs was way different). Though the Japanese treatment of POWs was a horror story. But starting with the Korean War of 1950 - 1953, prisoners became more hostages rather than treaty protected POWs. It use to be "Name, serial number and date of birth". Now POWs can be expected to be tourured for all the information the holding nation can get out of them.

Now western military have realized that their captured soldiers can not stand up to the tatics that some capturing country use to get info. And are now told that it is OK to lie and release minor information that will please their capturers. As long as they do not rat on a co-prisioner, or expose future operations. And that is exactly what has happened now. Since the UK and Iran are not directly at war, you cooperate as much as your instructions allow. Otherwise you cound spend 8 years in a "Hanoi Hilton" as the Americans did in Vietnam. The days of the POW tied to a chair and sitting upright, taking one slap after another is gone, Now that POW would be dragged back to his cell crying and whimpering after the capturer finished with him. Now the scene in the movie The Deerstakers, where the POWs were forced to play Russian Roulette, is unfortunatly more common than we want. So the statements you hear from the hostages is exactly what you would be expecting. To be repudiated when they get home.

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zimbob

I believe that Iran are seeing how far they can provoke the Weston world and in Particular America!

It's almost like they are daring the US/UK and the U.N to flinch and give concessions and capitulate to some of the Iranian demands, for example the trade embargo’s or the big Nuclear debate!

But why would Iran abduct the UK Service Men and Woman to evaluate the future American and U.N policy on the Iranian Nuclear development programme?

With Iran holding these 15 British Personnel prisoner they now know that the UK, US and U.N do not want to risk escalating the problem and send in anymore personal, the Iranians have probably concluded that the Weston Governments would rather use Diplomacy and give concessions to Iran as an alternative to another drawn out conflict like Iraq! A fair question to ask is who in there right mind would choose to have a War with Iran because of the threat of other Arab Nations (i.e Syria) getting involved?

It would be fair to say that the Iranians now know they could get away with developing there nuclear capabilities with similar impunity safe in the knowledge that as long as they serve lip service to the bureaucratic politicians they can do exactly what they want, I feel that as soon as one Arab Nation has Nuclear Technology they will all want it and then we will all face the real possibility of everything we hold dear hitting the fan in a really big way!

I don’t want to sound like a Propaganda machine but Iran has publicly stated that as soon as it Gets Nuclear capabilities it will Bomb Israel, and as far as some Extreme Muslims are concerned we are in a Jihad and all who do not believe in Allah should die.

Global Security.org "Nuclear Weapons - Iranian Statements"

Iran Press Service "Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel"

WikiPedia "Nuclear program of Iran"

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Unlimited

The Iranians are calling the wests bluff in a dangerous game....looks like the Iranians are winning this game.

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Bob26003

No limited, they are not the ones pushing, we are, and have been. People don't realize how devastating Bush's policy of Pre-Emption is. Nuclear Proliferation is on the rise, and Iran is justifiably worried about being attacked. I mean they are right next door to Iraq after all. Not to mention the threatening posture Bush has been taking with them. The Axis of Evil thing was a horrible concept. What did it lead to? Nuclear N. Korea and a defensive and anxious Iran.

Besides, I have seen no evidence that these guys were in Iraqi waters, and, those borders have long since been disputed. I would bet that in reality, incursions into Iranian territory are regular. We have credible evidence that US special forces have been crossing the border.

So, I think Iran may have just got ballsy enough to make a statement.

I mean I don't think the Muslim World is going to sit back while we invade country after country. I sense an alliance taking place. I think they are getting fed up.

Hence, the Saudi peace proposal. the Saudi King cancelling his dinner in Washington, and their recent denouncement of the occupation in Iraq.

The Palestinian issue is a huge part of this. Israel is a US subsidy. I think accepting the Peace Proposal would be a good step forward.

But you know how Bush and Olmert are, their all about the showdown and looking tough. Even it might mean the end of the World as we know it.

Like they say, Bush has made the worst Foreign policy blunder in American History :(

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Bob26003
Unfortunatly, the days of protection for POWs is over. Even in WW-II, the Germans treated western Allies deciently and mostly proper (though the German treatment of Russian POWs was way different). Though the Japanese treatment of POWs was a horror story. But starting with the Korean War of 1950 - 1953, prisoners became more hostages rather than treaty protected POWs. It use to be "Name, serial number and date of birth". Now POWs can be expected to be tourured for all the information the holding nation can get out of them.

Now western military have realized that their captured soldiers can not stand up to the tatics that some capturing country use to get info. And are now told that it is OK to lie and release minor information that will please their capturers. As long as they do not rat on a co-prisioner, or expose future operations. And that is exactly what has happened now. Since the UK and Iran are not directly at war, you cooperate as much as your instructions allow. Otherwise you cound spend 8 years in a "Hanoi Hilton" as the Americans did in Vietnam. The days of the POW tied to a chair and sitting upright, taking one slap after another is gone, Now that POW would be dragged back to his cell crying and whimpering after the capturer finished with him. Now the scene in the movie The Deerstakers, where the POWs were forced to play Russian Roulette, is unfortunatly more common than we want. So the statements you hear from the hostages is exactly what you would be expecting. To be repudiated when they get home.

Why not Birmingham? Hell, we torture! Gonzales even issued that memorandum justifying it. Guantanamo bay, Abu Graib, Getting rid of Habeas Corpus, and Exempting the Geneva conventions, Illegal extraditions, and sending people on black flights to other Countries to get tortured........ Is going to come back to haunt us.

So now if this happens to our Men and Woman, The torturing Country can claim moral equivalency.

How sad is that? :(

God what a disaster Bush has been. He has flushed our World standing down the toilet.

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zimbob

Iran, Give Our People Back Now!

I understand how the American people could feel that there Government has made mistakes but so has every other Government on the Face of the planet, and to be honest with you in my opinion the Arab Countries like Iran and Syria are amongst the worst offenders.

At least with the US/UK governments you can approach them with your opinion and sometimes get them to admit they were wrong and promise to try harder to get it right in the future.

Some people say that Bush has dealt with this situation all wrong and that in actual fact there is no war on Terror! I say that since I can remember way back in the 70's there has always been a terrorist action to maximise the publicity of there plight and in 2001 New York felt the impact of criminally insane terrorists who were willing to go to a whole new level, obviously not on the same scale but other major cities felt the repercussions of similar attacks but where the US stood up to the bully's and decided to police the World other super powers have not, where is China? what About Russia? there are allot of countries in the E.U that take all the money handouts they can get but do nothing in return for Global security and peace, the damn U.N are worse than the League of Nations and should be removed as they just confuse matters.

However as I was saying Bush might not be the best president ever but he has admitted all the responsibility and subsequent blame in an effort to increase the safety and security of his country men and woman, he took the fight to the enemy and is trying to extract the bad people but this sort of thing has not been done in recent history so its tricky to know the best course of action, I also feel that with 24hr news channels and the Internet we can dissect every decision in retrospect what is not a luxury the President has.

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secondhand
Now the scene in the movie The Deerstakers, where the POWs were forced to play Russian Roulette

Do you meen The Deer Hunter with Robert De Niro et al, or Sherlock Holmes' hat.

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Unlimited

Day 8 it looks like these soldiers are going on trial....this should be a message to every soldier...if you fight in iraq you could be captured and your forces will hang you out to dry.....

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Bob26003
Day 8 it looks like these soldiers are going on trial....this should be a message to every soldier...if you fight in iraq you could be captured and your forces will hang you out to dry.....

Thats another "myth" That Bush supports the troops..... :rolleyes: You would have to have the intelligence of a toadstool to believe that.

Anyway, the guy has been trying to cut Veterans funds for years. He sent them into battle without the correct equiptment and body armor . I wonder how many lives coulda been saved? Also, he has em doing 3 and 4 tours of duty. He is outsourcing many military operations to private firms such as BlackWater which make alot more than real soldiers to do the same job. and so on........................... Not to mention the Walter Reed situation and the trouble getting help all our returning soldiers are having.

Just because you send them to War does not mean you support them

Edited by Bob26003

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Unlimited

bush talks a good game.. but you only have to look at veterans benefits, walter reed hospital etc; to see he really doesnt care....

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demonhuntergeneral
Day 8 it looks like these soldiers are going on trial....this should be a message to every soldier...if you fight in iraq you could be captured and your forces will hang you out to dry.....

They haven't been left out to dry mate! I can only think it is taking this long because the British government is going through all the proper procedures. Plus they will be going around gathering support from our allies, to go and to take this on to the next stage which can only be direct action against Iran. All in all i can not see the British nation forgetting all about this in a hurry, I am frustrated and angered as any with the way Iran has acted, and can only see this making our soldiers or other service personnel a little bit more focused and ready of what needs to done over there.

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Unlimited
They haven't been left out to dry mate! I can only think it is taking this long because the British government is going through all the proper procedures. Plus they will be going around gathering support from our allies, to go and to take this on to the next stage which can only be direct action against Iran. All in all i can not see the British nation forgetting all about this in a hurry, I am frustrated and angered as any with the way Iran has acted, and can only see this making our soldiers or other service personnel a little bit more focused and ready of what needs to done over there.

while the british are going thru all the proper procedures the Iranians are planning an espionage trial...they commited an act of war and got away with it! because bush and blair can only attack unarmed countries....the Iranians already won this game of brinksmanship....

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Lottie

Update:

Navy captives 'could face trial'

The crew has been held captive for more than a week.

The 15 Royal Navy personnel held captive by Iran could stand trial for "entering Iranian waters", a senior Iranian diplomat has said.

Gholamreza Ansari, Iran's ambassador to Moscow, is quoted as telling Russian TV they may face "illegal action" charges.

But the UK government says the captives were seized in Iraqi waters and has demanded their "immediate" return.

Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett has written to the Iranian government, but the details of the letter are unknown.

According to Iran's IRNA news agency, Mr Ansari told Russian television legal moves against the 15 had already started "and if charges against them are proven, they will be punished".

Here for more:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6513639.stm

:rolleyes:

They haven't been left out to dry mate! I can only think it is taking this long because the British government is going through all the proper procedures. Plus they will be going around gathering support from our allies, to go and to take this on to the next stage which can only be direct action against Iran. All in all i can not see the British nation forgetting all about this in a hurry, I am frustrated and angered as any with the way Iran has acted, and can only see this making our soldiers or other service personnel a little bit more focused and ready of what needs to done over there.

Well said, I completely agree with you. This is all as I have mentioned pathetic. A deliberate ploy to provoke us and get us 'Frustrated and angered" to try and get us to attack them....and then for them perfect excuse. *sigh*

Edited by Lottie

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Aztec Warrior
Thats another "myth" That Bush supports the troops..... :rolleyes: You would have to have the intelligence of a toadstool to believe that.

Anyway, the guy has been trying to cut Veterans funds for years. He sent them into battle without the correct equiptment and body armor . I wonder how many lives coulda been saved? Also, he has em doing 3 and 4 tours of duty. He is outsourcing many military operations to private firms such as BlackWater which make alot more than real soldiers to do the same job. and so on........................... Not to mention the Walter Reed situation and the trouble getting help all our returning soldiers are having.

Just because you send them to War does not mean you support them

A toadstool...or a frog?

These were British soldiers...operating under the UN mandate...................captured illegally in international waters by a hostile regime. Yet some people still want to blame George Bush............. :rolleyes: With so much Bush hate, its no wonder some people think there is no an axis of evil... just cause Bush said so.

Even Mugen isn't supporting the current Iranian regime in this matter.............but some twisted liberals do. Hate Bush....hate Bush.............gettting real old and this thread has NOTHING to do with GB. Next, i'll be hearing some crazy rant on how the soldiers are facing trial....because of Bush.

So much hate makes me want to vomit.

Edited by Aztec Warrior

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Unlimited

Bobs brought the level of bush hate up a few notches....he's a reflection of america though....

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Aztec Warrior
Bobs brought the level of bush hate up a few notches....he's a reflection of america though....

A reflection of liberal America. I suppose so.

But when Bush is gone.........the world will still be dangerous and singing kombaya around the campfire isn't going to change that.

That's why the next US president will not be liberal...........and you can take that to the bank.

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Bob26003

I admit it. I hate Bush, but I am not alone on that either.

What is at now 29% approval or so?

He is not a well liked man at all.

Edited by Bob26003

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Birmingham

This is the same thing Iran threatened to do to the American diplomats during the US embassy hostage crissis. If Iran does, everything is off the table.

For the British, welcome to the nightmere. The US went through this decades ago. And the effects still linger in the States. The hostages will be paraded infront of Iranian TV once a week. Letters will be released. And more and more demand will be made. And the demands will become more radical and outragous as time goes on. Demands that the Iranians know could never be fullfilled - Like the scrapping of the British military. Or everyone in the UK convert to Islam. And that this has all the chances of going on. Through next month, 3 months from now, 6,9 12 months from now. And god forbid if this lasts as long as the American hostage situation, that covered parts of 3 years. The hardliners in Iran know that they have little to fear from Britian by itself. So Iran will hold onto the kidnapees as long as they can wring any concessions from the west.

Even 2 weeks ago, I would have laughed in someones face if they segested that the Conservative Pary would win the next election. But if the people politicly revolt against the Labour Party, Just as the American people did against Jimmy Carter in 1980, Labour could be out in the wilderness for years to come. As the Democrats were from 1980 to 1992. Labour runs the real risk of losing the support of the average British voter. Even a lack of confedence in the House of Commons, if this drags on too long for the British people. This crissis could change the face of British politics for years to come if the hostages are not back in the UK by the next election (whenever that happens). Even the British do not like to be slapped around. And if this crissis goes too long, the British will take it out on who they think is responcible. You might not be able to touch Iran, but Labour is right there in front of the British voters.

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Fluffybunny
while the british are going thru all the proper procedures the Iranians are planning an espionage trial...they commited an act of war and got away with it! because bush and blair can only attack unarmed countries....the Iranians already won this game of brinksmanship....

Not yet. I think that Blair is being more conservative and trying a higher level of diplomacy than normal based on the iraq disaster that made everyone look like they jumped the gun.

I also get the feeling that Blair told bush to back off. Blair can attack iran no problem at all, and if that happens the US would join in, and we have so much air power that we could decimate every military target and not break a sweat in doing so.

We have a lot of technology and missiles that allow us to destroy things without even entering the country or having to put down our coffee to lauch weapons for ships at sea and planes in the air that iran can't stop. Iran has a good military, but they are heavy in infantry and ground war support, not aircraft that can keep up with ours. All the infantry in the world can't stop falling bombs. If the 15 are tried and injured in any way I guarantee gloves will come off and it will get bloody.

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Caesar
Not yet. I think that Blair is being more conservative and trying a higher level of diplomacy than normal based on the iraq disaster that made everyone look like they jumped the gun.

I also get the feeling that Blair told bush to back off. Blair can attack iran no problem at all, and if that happens the US would join in, and we have so much air power that we could decimate every military target and not break a sweat in doing so.

We have a lot of technology and missiles that allow us to destroy things without even entering the country or having to put down our coffee to lauch weapons for ships at sea and planes in the air that iran can't stop. Iran has a good military, but they are heavy in infantry and ground war support, not aircraft that can keep up with ours. All the infantry in the world can't stop falling bombs. If the 15 are tried and injured in any way I guarantee gloves will come off and it will get bloody.

Well said Fluffy, I think Blair more then likely will take this to the U.N. Iraq had a larg army but our A-10s took so many of thier tanks out. I really hope this will end peacefully but Irans leadership is insane!!!!

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Caesar

I thought this was sick, only on the main stream media

"Rosie Implies Captured Brits Are A Contrived 'Gulf of Tonkin' For War With Iran

Posted by Justin McCarthy on March 26, 2007 - 13:19.

On the March 26 edition of "The View," co-host Rosie O’Donnell discussed the Iranian seizure of British sailors. Rosie again gave out false information on national television and implied that this may be a hoax so to provide the president with an excuse to go to war."

Source and full article

"anderson cooper

wake up

False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to appear as if they are being carried out by other entities.

the british did it on purpose into iranian waters]

as

US MILITARY BUILD UP ON THE IRANIAN BORDER"

Rosie O’Donnells blog

LOL this is on ABC how left can they get? a co-host of ABC talk show The View.

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Cinders

well now.. on BBC's front page at this time the headline is now showing:

Bush attacks Iran over captives

President George W Bush has condemned Iran's "inexcusable behaviour" after its capture of 15 Royal Navy personnel.

Full story AND Video found here on BBC

He seems to really try to reach out to the Iranian people but clearly makes it known he's not happy with their government.. ie: Ahmadinejad aka Amenejobby

I bet the people of Iran think a bit the same way as many of us here think of them:

They might like the American citizens but they are not happy with our president..

And we might like the kind Iranian citizens but think unfavorable of their president..

I wonder if they can't stand their president as much as I can't stand ours...??

If so, it would seem like we are all rowing in the same boat.

I am so very worried about those British Marines.. I really wish the Iran government would knock off this dangerous game they are playing. The world is watching and waiting....

Edited by Cinders

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Unlimited

these marines will not be released...it was a calculated effort to grab them and play this game....I wouldnt doubt if they were imprisoned for years..

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