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Mugen

Iran 'seizes' 15 British Marines

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Birmingham

As far as the interview with Ms. Turney, the media will search out different angles to the story. Which person would you tape. The one female petty officer who drives the inspection boat, or a simple private of the Marines.

I was reading the BBC's website last night, and at the very end was a disterbing comment from Iranian officials. "In order for the Britions to be released 'every vested interest in Iran' would need to be satisfied they had not delibertly entered Iranian waters, nor were they spying". Which looks like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards have a say, if not a veto, over the release of the Marines and Seamen. And if the R.G. flex their muscles, then this is not going to end soon for the remaining 14.

As far as those who who criticize the officers and men of HMS Cornwall. The R.G. is a constant presence in Shatt al_Arab. Normally sitting or patroling on their side of the river. And remember this was up a river ftom the exit into the Gulf. And you can be sure that withing minutes, the R.G. had the Brits devided up among the R.G. patrol boats. Then if you fire on the boat, you do not know which ones have the Sailors and Marines on it. You could kill 25 R.G. members, and the 15 Brits, since they would be all mixed up

Concerning what the British Government knows, there are several possibilities. The whole incident could have been cought by an American recon satelitte. While the rubber boats may not have been picked up by Cornwall's radar, the inspected ship would have been, More likely, one or both of the inspection boats had a GPS tracker on board that can tell within 3 feet where the boats were.

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Unlimited

they are showing the marines on the news...they look in good spirits...thats good...

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Cinders

On this link here it talks more on the GPS information and more.

ALSO WATCH the MOD NEWS BRIEFING link found on the article there -- (a 6 minute video report.. it even works if you are on dial up)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6501555.stm

The more information and maps that come out on all this situation it looks like that IT WAS IRAN in IRAQI WATERS.

AND IT IS THEM that should have been SEIZED! NOT the 15 British Marines!!

Edited by Cinders

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Cinders
they are showing the marines on the news...they look in good spirits...thats good...

Yea.. just caught that on CNN, MSNBC and FOX... brief shots .. it is a new released video from Iran.

Ohhh Iran.. you best LET THEM GO and let them GO SAFELY!

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Aztec Warrior
As far as the interview with Ms. Turney, the media will search out different angles to the story. Which person would you tape. The one female petty officer who drives the inspection boat, or a simple private of the Marines.

I was reading the BBC's website last night, and at the very end was a disterbing comment from Iranian officials. "In order for the Britions to be released 'every vested interest in Iran' would need to be satisfied they had not delibertly entered Iranian waters, nor were they spying". Which looks like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards have a say, if not a veto, over the release of the Marines and Seamen. And if the R.G. flex their muscles, then this is not going to end soon for the remaining 14.

As far as those who who criticize the officers and men of HMS Cornwall. The R.G. is a constant presence in Shatt al_Arab. Normally sitting or patroling on their side of the river. And remember this was up a river ftom the exit into the Gulf. And you can be sure that withing minutes, the R.G. had the Brits devided up among the R.G. patrol boats. Then if you fire on the boat, you do not know which ones have the Sailors and Marines on it. You could kill 25 R.G. members, and the 15 Brits, since they would be all mixed up

Concerning what the British Government knows, there are several possibilities. The whole incident could have been cought by an American recon satelitte. While the rubber boats may not have been picked up by Cornwall's radar, the inspected ship would have been, More likely, one or both of the inspection boats had a GPS tracker on board that can tell within 3 feet where the boats were.

"At the time of the abduction, HMS Cornwall must have been aware of the approach of the Iranians, using her onboard sensors and those of the Lynx helicopter which was on the scene at the time. Yet apparently no effort was made, either by the heavily armed warship or the Lynx, usually armed at this time with light and heavy machineguns, to protect their sailors or prevent their capture."

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Cinders

Another update on the situation .. this story shows with images on USA TODAY

On the above article from USA Today it also has a link stating ON DEADLINE: Report: Video not broadcast within Iran

AS well as Turney's alleged letter to her mum & dad...

*sigh*

Edited by Cinders

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KingTomis

She sure doesn't seem well.

She looks like she is about to break down and cry. It's pretty much established that she was forced to write that and while I doubt they are being mistreated, you can be sure there was "influence" when writing and recording said letter.

They also made her write an apology letter to the iranian people for entering their waters when it is a well know fact to the civilized world that they did not.

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Stellar
They also made her write an apology letter to the iranian people for entering their waters when it is a well know fact to the civilized world that they did not.

They're captives of the Iranians... its entirely possible they've been lead to believe that they WERE inside Iranian waters.

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KingTomis
They're captives of the Iranians... its entirely possible they've been lead to believe that they WERE inside Iranian waters.

Well yeah, I'm sure they were told all sorts of rubbish and I'm pretty sure she knows that they are wrong but you cant really argue with a fanatical group of muslims can you?

I'm not saying that she should know better than to say such nonsense, she should do and say whatever she is told so ensure that she and the other brits are returned promptly. That doesn't mean that the iranians should expect the rest of the world to believe they were in iranian waters just because she admitted to it while a hostage.

I do wonder what kind of plates they were eating from. Sure looks like you can fit a whole bunch of chicken and dumplings on one.... Might have to invest...

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Birmingham

After looking at the most recient BBC news report on the crissis, with a map. It is apparent that part of my previous post was wrong. That the incident happened in the open sea of the Persian Gulf, rather than in the waters of the Shatt al-Arab. However the rest of my post stands.

The photo posted on the BBC website shows a sailor in the Royal Navy Lynx helicopter sitting on the door of the Lynx holding a GPS unit. As the Lynx hovered over the ship being inspected. With a video camera taping the inspection of the ship and the GPS and its coodinates in the same frame. Which is standard proceadure. Showing the inspected ship was 1.5 sea miles east of the Iranian boarders. The Cornwall then radioed the postition of the ship to the Iranians, who said the ship was infact within Iraqi waters. Then later called back that the inspected ship was in Iranian waters.

With the release of the photos of the inspected ship with the GPS reciever in view, the British have ratcheted up the pressure in the Iranian Government. Now nations have the proof of the Royal Marines/ Royal Navy seamen positions during this encounter. It also presents the risk that the Iranians will harden their position since they stand to lose face if they give in. Even in the face if direct evidence.

As far as not firing on the 6 Iranian boats. These speed boats have a speed of some 40 - 45 mph/65 - 80kph. And can travel the distance from the border to the Royal Marines in less than 3 minutes. So you have 2 - 3 minutes to deciede if you are going to start a full shooting war. And with the heavy machine guns on the R.G. boats, they could shoot up and kill the Royal Marines in their boats And even theaten the Lynx. And what would the Cornwall respond back with, the Harpoon misiles may not home on a small rubber boat, remember the Harpoon is a radar homer, and there is not a lot of metal in a rubber craft. Not to mention that it might lock on to the wrong rubber boat. The Goalkeeper gun system was out of range by 2 miles. It would have to be the Vickers 4.5 inch/120mm cannon. But if the Iranian boats were close to the R.N. zodiacs, the Marines would be under fire by their own ship.

But now the ground rules are different. Any thing done by the Revolutionary Guards will be deemed hostile. There will be one radio warning. And if not obayed, the Gulf sharks will have a good meal courtecy of the R.G.

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thecreeper
Iran official says woman to be released

http://fe2.news.sp1.yahoo.com/s/ap/2007032...FcUUM0XxLBSw60A

It looks like it could turn out good.

I will be fine once ALL of them are given back to England unharmed

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Spurious George
After looking at the most recient BBC news report on the crissis, with a map. It is apparent that part of my previous post was wrong. That the incident happened in the open sea of the Persian Gulf, rather than in the waters of the Shatt al-Arab.

Every article I have read clearly states that the incident took place in "the Shatt al-Arab waterway" not in the open sea of the Persian Gulf.

Please clarify....

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Unlimited

the british are now outraged the way they were shown on tv...I dont blame them.....

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Birmingham

Catch22, It was on the BBC website for the hourly news. Apparently the incident was just outside of the Shatt al-Arab. The map showed the international boundrys, the location of the inspected ship and the location of the Brits according to the Iranians.

My suspition is that there was confussion over where the end of the Shatt al-Arab extended out into the Persian Gulf. And the British government did not want to release the GPS coordenates at first so as to give the Iranians a chance not to lose face, and let the people go. But now with this going no where, the British is racheting up the pressure on Iran by publishing the exact location. In the photo you can see from the Lynx, the ship being inspected, and a air crewman holding a GPS unit showing the coordentates in front of the camera. To record exactly where a ship is when it is under inspection. When I saw tape footage from HMS Cornwall right after the incident, it appeared to be in more open waters, and not at or inside the mouth of a river. Where you would have seen a lot more land closer to the ship.

Probibly the British Government should have released the exact coordenates earlier. But there was hope the 15 people would be let go after 3 days, as Iran did 3 years ago. Now the British has published the GPS coordenates, and it basicly rubs Irans nose in it. But with no progress, the location of the Royal Marines and Sailors needed to be shown to the international community.

ADDENDA: The BBC website that I referenced, is the one on Cinders post #203

Edited by Birmingham

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Stardrive
But there was hope the 15 people would be let go after 3 days, as Iran did 3 years ago.

In light of Iran's track record on holding hotages and belligerent posturing as of late, I would say the chances of that are slim to none and slims outta town.

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m. Moe

*sigh* It's a war just waiting to happen.

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Spurious George

Thanks for the clarification.

In my own irrelevant opinion I dont trust either side to tell the story straight, each side will try and demonize the other. If both sides story keeps changing like they have, it indicates to me that both sides are hiding something. It is very easy for the military to hide what actually happened and very plausible that Iran is just being belligerent. I dont trust either side to tell the truth.

Just like with the Israel/Lebanon war, it started with soldiers being captured. At the beginning the story was all over the place... captured inside Israel, an Israeli official saying it happened across the border in Lebanon, then the story changes again, then the war starts to rescue the soldiers, then the reason for going to war changes from rescuing the prisoners to eliminating a threat, then war ends and we never hear about the captured soldiers again.

Basically both sides will tell their story and the people will agree with the story that makes their bad guys look like... the bad guys. To me its all just politics(lies).

Anyways thats my $0.02 but thanks again, I dont watch tv so I dont see all the video footage the news shows.

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KingTomis

Didn't Iran release GPS coordinates that they thought would "prove" it happened in Iranian waters, and the coordinates was still in Iraqi waters, so they supplied another set a day later?

Some people were posting about it on another forum I frequent.

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Birmingham
In light of Iran's track record on holding hotages and belligerent posturing as of late, I would say the chances of that are slim to none and slims outta town.

Very true. I think everyone had hopes that this would end up as in 2004. But now as a week approches, that hope is going downhill fast now. I suspect that this could drag out for weeks and months, depending on the Iranians. But the longer this goes on, the more danger Iran faces.

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Birmingham

Your welcomed Catch22. Even if you do not watch TV, you can still see the British side by way of the link provided in Cinders post #203 on the preceading page

There is one way that the location can be validated. And that is by neutral partys in the Gulf. Even the upper part of the Gulf is heavily trafficed by foreign ships, especially tankers. And modern radar has a recording feature. So that a collision at sea can be recorded. And the newest radar had a digitial recording, so that if there is an incident, it can be downloaded later (say in the case of a collision or grounding and the ship is 20 miles from the incident. But has recorded the radar image, then its record can be used to recreate the accident or incident). And the British would not put out bad coordenates if that could be exposed by a French fraighter or a South Korean tanker who have the real location on its radar recorder.

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thecreeper

Why Doesn't Iran just release The Hostages, Its not like The UN will be nicer and remove the snactions(sp?) over There nuclear Program so Iran As nothing to gain and everything to loss by holding these Sailors Hostage

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Nietze

I don't think you can blame them. What would USA do if it saw armed forces of another nation in the gulf of mexico .. arrest them ,exactly the same as iran has done . It's naive to think the uk and usa can threaten iran subversively and put troops right up on their borders like this. USA and UK wouldn't stand for it if it happened to them , so I believe Iran has every right to hold these soldiers. Either they were stupid or provocative or surveillance to be in the area they were caught and i doubt the british troops are stupid .

Edited by Nietze

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Birmingham

Actually both the UK and the USA have had foreign naval ships near and sometimes in their terratorial waters. Britain had a long history of Russian spy "fishing boats" off the coast (you know the type, lots of electronic gear but no fishing nets). Sometimes moving inside the 12 mile limit. Specially when a nuclear missile submarine was going on patrol. And during the Cold War, Russian spy ships camped out outside of the Polaris missile base in Guam. Russian warships patroled the Gulf of Mexico. Even the Cuban Navy saw service in the Gulf of Mexico.

Once when traveling in the States, I went salmon fishing (and yes I got seasick :angry2: ) off the Pacific coast. And right at the very edge of the 12 mile limit was a "civilian" Russian "fishing boat". I asked the charter boat captain if he thought if the Soviet ship was inside the 12 mile limits. And he said he thought so. I asked if he was going to radio the US Coast Guard. And he said no, the USCG would log the report, maybe check its radar position - but that was it. The Russian so aggresivly patroled the 12 mile limits, and sometimes drifted inside US waters. But that it had to be 2 - 4 miles inside the limits before the Coast Guard would send a 50 foot boat to escort it back outside the limits. According to the skipper.

But unless the foreign navy ships entered inside the 12 mile limit, there was nothing that the US was going to do about it. Russian Airforce transports and Aeroflot passengers several times flying from Russia to Cuba flew over American water. And on two or more times even flew over American land. All the US Airforce did was drive the Russian planes back outside the 12 mile limit. Thats drove the plane back over the 12 mile limit - not shoot them down.

The Royal Navy would just fly a Nimrod over foreign warships. Their main concern was drug and human traficing. And fisheries protection inshore. The British, Americans and the Soviet Union had an informal arrangement. Do not do anything hostile and we wont bother you if you made an attempt to stay outside of the 12 mile limit. Because the British and Americans, unlike the present Iranian government, did not want to create an international incident if it could be resolved peacefully

So I will contend that the British and American are not as trigger happy as your personal politics believe.

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Lottie

Update:

Iran offers UK access to sailors

Iran has offered to let UK officials visit the 15 Royal Navy personnel who were captured in the Gulf on Friday.

Iran's foreign minister also said the only woman being held, Faye Turney, who has been interviewed on Iranian state television, could be released.

However, he added the stand-off would be resolved only if the UK stated that the sailors and marines had been in Iranian waters, which it denies.

For more read here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6505453.stm

Playing games? I think so....

Edited by Lottie
corrected error.

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Lottie

Update:

Seized sailor's release in doubt

Iran may delay its plan to release the only woman among 15 captured Royal Navy crew because of the UK's "incorrect attitude", an official has said.

Iran's insistence the group was in its waters last Friday saw the UK release GPS evidence to back up its denials.

Tony Blair's official spokesman said the UK was not seeking a confrontation.

But he said footage of Faye Turney and the others on Iranian TV was wrong in terms of "basic humanity". The UK is hoping for a statement from the UN.

Foreign office sources have confirmed the UK is circulating a draft statement it would like to see endorsed by the UN Security Council, to support the call for the immediate release of the 15.

Here for more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6506361.stm

UK's "incorrect attitude",

They really are looking for a fight aren't they. Playing and toying with us like this... Pathetic.

Edited by Lottie
cause I can.

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