Basques. .TOCHARIANS. Guanches

[crystal sage]

Copy, yes, but remember you suggested they were /changing/ the VM too, or rather an Ur-VM. And this sort of change isn't like the skip a letter/add a letter/re-arrange a letter that happens in manuscript transmisssion.

suggested that they 'could' have altered it....the relative modernism of some of the sketches could have been done to please the King who is said to have commissioned a copy..

Look at all the bibles we have.. how close are the to the original editions?? We at home have the Morman's versions.. . they seem to like visiting us.. . the 'Good News Bible' taught at our schools..and various other versions..

I dunno. I see history up there pretty prominently, myself. But you're quite right -- or do you think you don't have to defend what you put out in discussion?

I just don't like being accused of deliberately misrepresenting anything... like as if I know the validity of any of these facts first hand.. Do you??? I can't claim to know anything here as total fact.. must rely on the information I get through searching the internet etc

You have quoted articles so grossly out of context as to be contrary to the point of the author. You have misquoted articles so that they seem to confirm the point you want to make. And I've caught you doing so on more than one occasion. And you know that. So do other visitors here. I'm happy to leave it at that.

And we've trod this ground at least three times before. I'm happy to let it rest and continue a discussion of the Basques.

I did not intend to misrepresent or misquote articles.. I just pointed out bits of interest.. like I said before on another thread.. accasionally I do not totally agree with some of the conclusions some of these authors have come to when gathering.. sorting out their facts.. information... or I just see the evidence .. ideas they pose as heading another way...so I just point out the bits that stand out for me..as worth looking at.. Is that wrong??? also I have been told off before for pasting too much of any article..

--Jaylemurph

Sure lets just share ideas.. thoughts... on this interesting topic...

Edited March 31, 2008 by crystal sage

[MARAB0D]

I remember once reading about Guanches that they possibly could be the survivors of Atlantis, which were living in the elevated areas, highlanders. It was mentioned in that book on Atlantis I read it is, that when the first Spaniards arrived to Canaras, they were surprised that the local population had literacy and architecture, but absolutely no shipbuilding and navigational skills, so they could not understand how these people got to the islands in first place. But if the islands are former mountain peaks of Atlantis, then this can be the reason.

[redhen]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-13...72SCw&hl=en

Interesting NOVA vid on the Tocharians.

[crystal sage]

I remember once reading about Guanches that they possibly could be the survivors of Atlantis, which were living in the elevated areas, highlanders. It was mentioned in that book on Atlantis I read it is, that when the first Spaniards arrived to Canaras, they were surprised that the local population had literacy and architecture, but absolutely no shipbuilding and navigational skills, so they could not understand how these people got to the islands in first place. But if the islands are former mountain peaks of Atlantis, then this can be the reason.

Reminds me of the Highlander movies... I love them...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091203/

and the series...

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=h...a=N&tab=wv#

http://scifipedia.scifi.com/index.php/Highlander:_The_Series

Edited July 30, 2008 by crystal sage

[HollyDolly]

No I never heard of the Mongol Spot. If I ever had one,my mother never mentioned it.My mother was Hungarian

and said I had the Magyar eyes,meaning i took after her side of the family,than my dad's side which is German.

[HollyDolly]

I know little about the Basques etc. However, it just floors me how scientists refuse to face the facts.

There is nothing to say ancient man did not travel and move around the world, whether on horseback, wagons,boats,etc.

My mother was Hungarian. Her ancestors came from heaven knows where in the East,and moved westward as did Ghengis Khan and his Mongols.

Why couldn't Europeans have gone from west to east,regardless of their hair color?

That's like the Discovery Channel several years back had about how researchers found cocaine in some egyptian mummies.As far as I know the plant that produces cocaine isn't native to Africa.If true,then how did they get it?By trade of course.

I'm tired of the PC bunk.All cultures have contributed in one way or the other,for good or bad to the area in which they live.

These so called scientists need to get over it.

[Tann de Mae]

I was recently informed that the cocaine-egyptian connection might be faulty. I was told to read up on it, I have yet to do so.

Regarding West to East spread of civilization, one would do well to check out Irish Origins of Civlization. He discusses how the Irish myths claim that their ancestors came in boats from the West and discusses how many of them spread across the world to transfer knowledge and light in a time of chaos (after a catastrophe). He mentions the Tarim mummies and several other examples of red-headed, blue-eyed mummies. It's an interesting read.

[crystal sage]

I was recently informed that the cocaine-egyptian connection might be faulty. I was told to read up on it, I have yet to do so.

Regarding West to East spread of civilization, one would do well to check out Irish Origins of Civlization. He discusses how the Irish myths claim that their ancestors came in boats from the West and discusses how many of them spread across the world to transfer knowledge and light in a time of chaos (after a catastrophe). He mentions the Tarim mummies and several other examples of red-headed, blue-eyed mummies. It's an interesting read.

there is some interesting research mentioned in the disussion on this site...]

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/ind...-52269-p-2.html

there are 11 reasons to believe the British Israelite Theory—even without the DNA test results

then they mention the link to the Sea People...

Could they be the ancestors of Noah?

The 'pirate style' boat civilization left over from the great floods?

Or were the the Viking groups... the decendants of the 'Sea People'?

There are many references.. or hints to the ancient Sea people... Who were they...

Although it does not say so in this particular article, in 2001 the New York Times disclosed that the aboriginal Welsh and Irish share this same genetic marker. For reasons nobody seems to understand, all of these DNA strains originated back in the Orkney Islands.

We should note that 3,300 years ago was when the Sea People tried to gain access to Egypt—the same time this distinctive haplotype showed up in the Holy Land. Moses supposedly led the Jews to the Promised Land 3,300 years ago too.

If the Jews were really wandering in the desert for thousands of years, how come this DNA didn't show up until 3,300 years ago? Simultaneously with the arrival of the Sea People fleeing an environmental calamity back in the British Islands? The same time Stonehenge was abandoned as a religious center? The same time Atlantis disappeared beneath the waves? The same time that mining operations ended in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan? The same time the Bronze Age ended? The same time a Dark Age fell over Europe?

[jaylemurph]

then they mention the link to the Sea People...

Could they be the ancestors of Noah?

The 'pirate style' boat civilization left over from the great floods?

Or were the the Viking groups... the decendants of the 'Sea People'?

There are many references.. or hints to the ancient Sea people... Who were they...

Just because you refuse to do the research necessary doesn't mean there's not info out there to be had on these people, CS!

--Jaylemurph

[cormac mac airt]

there is some interesting research mentioned in the disussion on this site...]

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/ind...-52269-p-2.html

then they mention the link to the Sea People...

Could they be the ancestors of Noah?

The 'pirate style' boat civilization left over from the great floods?

Or were the the Viking groups... the decendants of the 'Sea People'?

There are many references.. or hints to the ancient Sea people... Who were they...

From you above Link:

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/ind...-52269-p-2.html

The origin of Jewish mtDNA Haplogroup K is unclear at this time.

Haplogroup K is NOT a Jewish haplogroup. There are some Jews that fall in that group, however. How do I know? Because I belong to Haplogroup K, specifically K1a + 195C.

A better understanding of British genetics can be found in Stephen Oppenheimer's book "The Origins of the British".

Also, for a better understanding of haplogroups in general and Haplogroup K specifically, I'd recommend these links.

mtDNA Haplogroup K

Ian Logan's website

Charles Kerchner's website

cormac

[crystal sage]

Pliny the Elder

Pliny the Elder a few decades later in his "Naturalis Historia" described the location of the Seres, going east from the Caspian Sea:

" Then, we again find tribes of Scythians, and again desert tracts occupied only by wild animals, till we come to that mountain chain overhanging the sea, which is called Tabis. Not till nearly half the length of the coast which looks north-east has been past, do you find inhabited country. The first race then encountered are the Seres, so famous for the fleecy product of their forests." (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XX "The Seres").

He also describes the silk manufacture of the Seres:

"The Seres are famous for the woolen substance obtained from their forests; after a soaking in water they comb off the white down of the leaves... So manifold is the labour employed, and so distant is the region of the globe drawn upon, to enable the Roman maiden to flaunt transparent clothing in public" (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XX "The Seres").

Pliny also reports a curious description of the Seres made by an embassy from Taprobane to Emperor Claudius, suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin, such as the Tocharians:

"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; that the father of Rachias (the ambassador) had frequently visited their country, and that the Seræ always came to meet them on their arrival. These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the purpose of communicating their thoughts. The rest of their information (on the Serae) was of a similar nature to that communicated by our merchants. It was to the effect that the merchandize on sale was left by them upon the opposite bank of a river on their coast, and it was then removed by the natives, if they thought proper to deal on terms of exchange. On no grounds ought luxury with greater reason to be detested by us, than if we only transport our thoughts to these scenes, and then reflect, what are its demands, to what distant spots it sends in order to satisfy them, and for how mean and how unworthy an end!" (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")

My link

??? Taprobane >>>> Ceylon.. or Sumatra?

Ancient India as Described in Classical Literature...

My link

My link

but then the gutteral language.. could have been the ancient Scotts who were later shipped off to New Zealand???

Ancient Celtic New Zealand.(

My link

Tibetan influences on Tocharians

My link

[Abramelin]

The Guanches were closely related to the Berbers, as has been proven by genetics.

No surprise to anyone, really.

Unless you believe in all those "Atlantis" fantasies.

As an extra: Berbers, on avarage, are very 'white', or 'Caucasian' looking.

And it appears to me THAT is the real topic.

.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Abramelin

[crystal sage]

As the Greco-Bactrians fought amongst themselves, events in distant lands set a "domino effect" in motion that would soon reach Bactria. Near Mongolia in 174 BC, an Indo-European people called the Tocharians by the Greeks (or Yuezhi by the Chinese), were defeated by the Xiongnu and fled west. The Tocharians defeated a related tribe, the Issedones (called Wusun by the Chinese), then invaded Dzungaria and evicted the Northern Sakas (called Sai Wang by the Chinese). These Northern Sakas fled south and settled in Ki'pin (near Kashmir), shortly after Eucratides seized power in Bactria.

After less than a generation in Dzungaria, the Tocharians were attacked by the Issedones and again forced to flee. They moved through Ferghana (which possibly belonged to a rising power known as "Kangju" (Kang-chu in Chinese), into Sogdiana where they attacked Scythian tribes known as Sakas, (probably descendents of the Massagetae). These Sakas fled in what became a massive invasion towards Bactria and Parthia, while the Tocharians settled in Sogdiana.

In the early 1st century BC, the Parthian Empire expanded eastward, defeating the Tocharians and subjugating the Sakas. Sakastan became a Parthian province ruled by the Suren family. By 20 AD, one of the Suren by the name of Gondophares became independent from the Parthians and founded the Pahlava or Indo-Parthian Empire. The Pahlava Empire barely outlasted Gondophares' death in 45 AD, as the Tocharians were then united into the expanding Kushan Empire.

My link

""the Chiefest [nation that settled in Ireland] I Suppose to be Scithians ... which firste inhabitinge and afterwarde stretchinge themselves forthe into the lande as theire numbers increased named it all of themselues Scuttenlande which more brieflye is Called Scuttlande or Scotlande" (A View of the Present State of Ireland, c. 1596).

Citing many ancient sources, Turner identified the Scythians ("Sakai") as the ancestors of the Anglo Saxons. However, that conclusion remains controversial.

Traditions of the Turkic Kazakhs and Yakuts (whose endoethnonym is "Sakha"); and the Pashtuns of Afghanistan connect these peoples to Scythians. Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.

'

My link

[The_Spartan]

My link

My link

come on!

Now you get going identifying the Tocharians with the Scythians.

They are different.

Dust up your History!

[Abramelin]

My link

My link

Any connection between the ancient Irish and Scythians was concocted by Christian monks, and all that in their endevour to link the Irish with one of lost tribes of the Israelites, Bible thumpers as they most definately were.

There is no connection whatsover between the Irish people and the ancient Tocharians.

The only link is them both being Caucasians.

[SlimJim22]

Any connection between the ancient Irish and Scythians was concocted by Christian monks, and all that in their endevour to link the Irish with one of lost tribes of the Israelites, Bible thumpers as they most definately were.

There is no connection whatsover between the Irish people and the ancient Tocharians.

The only link is them both being Caucasians.

I really don't know about this one.

Like the Anatolian language family, the Tocharian family is extinct; also like Anatolian, Tocharian texts were deciphered in the early 20th century and their study has suggested major changes to theories about early Indo-European (IE) languages. Prominent among these is the fact that Tocharian exhibits some fundamental affinities to the more western language families, such as Celtic, Italic, Hellenic and especially Germanic, that distinguish it from the geographically much closer eastern language families, such as Indo-Iranian or even Balto-Slavic. This does not mean that Tocharian is particularly close to any western European language family, though many individual parallels have been drawn, but only that it seems closer to them as a group than to the eastern IE languages. How western European (?) Tocharian speakers came to live in the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, China, is a mystery yet unresolved. However, it is noteworthy that the Silk Road was established through that area around the same time Tocharian speakers seem to have arrived: the appearance of a highly mobile European people at the inception of a major Eurasian trade link might not be a coincidence.

It is by no means certain that western European affinities demonstrate a prior western European presence: sometimes similarities exist by chance; but if chance is ruled out, there may have been sufficient linguistic contact between Proto-Tocharian speakers and others destined to live in western Europe, before the IE break-up. It seems rather likely that Tocharian peoples migrated directly east from the PIE homeland and discovered exotic trade goods awaiting further exploitation. Tocharian, unattested, later evolved into two separate languages, conventionally denoted as Tocharian A (eastern, a.k.a. Turfanian) and Tocharian B (western, a.k.a. Kuchean), both located along the north rim of the Tarim Basin; in the 6th-8th century A.D. texts so far discovered, A seems to have been in liturgical use only, while B was yet a living vernacular. Evidence for yet a third offshoot, Tocharian C, somewhat older than the other two, has been unearthed along the southern rim of the Tarim Basin

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/general/IE.html

So there seems to at least a partial linguistic link between Tocharian and western european languages such as gaelic.

They may not have been identical to the Scythians but they probably had a lot in common. The Milesians were from Iberia but could have claimed descent from Miletus or Scythia. I don't know for sure but myth does seem to imply that they moved in despite the TDD already being there.

Anybody know who built the Silk Road?

[Abramelin]

I really don't know about this one.

Like the Anatolian language family, the Tocharian family is extinct; also like Anatolian, Tocharian texts were deciphered in the early 20th century and their study has suggested major changes to theories about early Indo-European (IE) languages. Prominent among these is the fact that Tocharian exhibits some fundamental affinities to the more western language families, such as Celtic, Italic, Hellenic and especially Germanic, that distinguish it from the geographically much closer eastern language families, such as Indo-Iranian or even Balto-Slavic. This does not mean that Tocharian is particularly close to any western European language family, though many individual parallels have been drawn, but only that it seems closer to them as a group than to the eastern IE languages. How western European (?) Tocharian speakers came to live in the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, China, is a mystery yet unresolved. However, it is noteworthy that the Silk Road was established through that area around the same time Tocharian speakers seem to have arrived: the appearance of a highly mobile European people at the inception of a major Eurasian trade link might not be a coincidence.

It is by no means certain that western European affinities demonstrate a prior western European presence: sometimes similarities exist by chance; but if chance is ruled out, there may have been sufficient linguistic contact between Proto-Tocharian speakers and others destined to live in western Europe, before the IE break-up. It seems rather likely that Tocharian peoples migrated directly east from the PIE homeland and discovered exotic trade goods awaiting further exploitation. Tocharian, unattested, later evolved into two separate languages, conventionally denoted as Tocharian A (eastern, a.k.a. Turfanian) and Tocharian B (western, a.k.a. Kuchean), both located along the north rim of the Tarim Basin; in the 6th-8th century A.D. texts so far discovered, A seems to have been in liturgical use only, while B was yet a living vernacular. Evidence for yet a third offshoot, Tocharian C, somewhat older than the other two, has been unearthed along the southern rim of the Tarim Basin

http://www.utexas.ed...general/IE.html

So there seems to at least a partial linguistic link between Tocharian and western european languages such as gaelic.

They may not have been identical to the Scythians but they probably had a lot in common. The Milesians were from Iberia but could have claimed descent from Miletus or Scythia. I don't know for sure but myth does seem to imply that they moved in despite the TDD already being there.

Anybody know who built the Silk Road?

The link is called "Indo-European.

And that is all.

All the rest has been fabricated by 'good Christians'.

.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

The link is called "Indo-European.

And that is all.

All the rest has been fabricated by 'good Christians'.

.

Why do you think 'good christians' twisted history to meet their ends? When do you think this occured?

[Abramelin]

Why do you think 'good christians' twisted history to meet their ends? When do you think this occured?

The 'good Christians' want/wanted to twist historic facts to prove their socalled 'Holy Book' right.

And it occurred as early as 800 (or before) BC.

[SlimJim22]

The 'good Christians' want/wanted to twist historic facts to prove their socalled 'Holy Book' right.

And it occurred as early as 800 (or before) BC.

So who are these guys? Uncommon christians I presume... They cooked up a story and chucked us in a meat grinder. Sorry I couldn't help but think of that Predator line. They come to Ireland as TDD or Milesians and fabricate that folk lore so as to create a link to a global populace as hebrews or scythians. If that is what happenned then Icke is a flaming genius because that is more or less what he claims. The 'good christians' paint whoever they want as the devil then burn the enemy and feel no remorse. Very clever really.

[cormac mac airt]

It is by no means certain that western European affinities demonstrate a prior western European presence: sometimes similarities exist by chance; but if chance is ruled out, there may have been sufficient linguistic contact between Proto-Tocharian speakers and others destined to live in western Europe, before the IE break-up.

The idea of "let's ignore similarities that exist by chance and rule it out completely" would not appear to be a valid argument, IMHO. Particularly with the linguistic timeline involved.

1. Anatolian languages, earliest attested branch. Isolated terms in Old Assyrian sources from the 19th century BC, Hittite texts from about the 16th century BC; extinct by Late Antiquity.

2. Hellenic languages, fragmentary records in Mycenaean Greek from the late 15th - early 14th century BC; Homeric traditions date to the 8th century BC. (See Proto-Greek language, History of the Greek language.)

3. Indo-Iranian languages, born from a common ancestor, Proto-Indo-Iranian (dated to the late 3rd millenium BC)

...Iranian languages, attested from roughly 1000 BC in the form of Avestan. Epigraphically from 520 BC in the form of Old Persian (Behistun inscription).

...Indo-Aryan languages, attested from the late 15th - early 14th century BC in Mitanni texts showing traces of Indo-Aryan. Epigraphically from the 3rd century BC in the form of Prakrit (Edicts of Ashoka). The Rigveda is assumed to preserve intact records via oral tradition dating from about the mid-2nd millennium BC in the form of Vedic Sanskrit.

Dardic languages

Nuristani languages

4. Italic languages, including Latin and its descendants (the Romance languages), attested from the 7th century BC.

5. Celtic languages, descended from Proto-Celtic. Gaulish inscriptions date as early as the 6th century BC; Celtiberian from the 2nd century BC; Old Irish manuscript tradition from about the 8th century AD, and there are inscriptions in Old Welsh from the same period.

6. Germanic languages (from Proto-Germanic), earliest testimonies in runic inscriptions from around the 2nd century AD, earliest coherent texts in Gothic, 4th century AD. Old English manuscript tradition from about the 8th century AD.

7. Armenian language, alphabet writings known from the beginning of the 5th century AD.

8. Tocharian languages, extant in two dialects, attested from roughly the 6th to the 9th century AD. Marginalized by the Old Turkic Uyghur Khaganate and probably extinct by the 10th century.

9. Balto-Slavic languages, believed by most Indo-Europeanists[9] to form a phylogenetic unit, while a minority ascribes similarities to prolonged language contact.

...Slavic languages (from Proto-Slavic), attested from the 9th century AD (possibly earlier; see Slavic runes), earliest texts in Old Church Slavonic.

...Baltic languages, attested from the 14th century AD, and, for languages attested that late, they retain unusually many archaic features attributed to Proto-Indo-European (PIE).

10. Albanian language, attested from the 14th century AD; Proto-Albanian likely emerged from Paleo-Balkan predecessors.

Indo-European Languages

Based on written usage, Tocharian would only appear around the 6th century AD as one of the newer language groups while most other language groups would have been around for better than 1000 years prior. That's not exactly helpful in linking it with gaelic.

cormac

[Abramelin]

So who are these guys? Uncommon christians I presume... They cooked up a story and chucked us in a meat grinder. Sorry I couldn't help but think of that Predator line. They come to Ireland as TDD or Milesians and fabricate that folk lore so as to create a link to a global populace as hebrews or scythians. If that is what happenned then Icke is a flaming genius because that is more or less what he claims. The 'good christians' paint whoever they want as the devil then burn the enemy and feel no remorse. Very clever really.

Icke is not a genius at all, maybe he just repeated what we all know: Christian missionaries and monks distorted native myths to make them fit into their Bibical history, and thus make it easier to convert the 'heathens'.

[Indiogene]

There has been inquiry reports of a newly constructed linguistic group spanning nearly all the 6 continents known as the "Basque-Nadene-Caucasian" mega-family, the languages mentioned includes Basque, Georgian of the Caucasus mountains between Europe and Asia, and the Na-Dene (Navajo) Indians in North America.

The academic linguists came upon this radical but feasible theory of the connection of very distant and "unrelated" languages from westernmost Europe to northern Asia to the Americas, and to configure any links to the Turanian (Altaic, Turkic and Uralic) peoples of Central Asia and the Middle East.

Language is one thing, but ethnicity and genomes/haplotypes is what bioscientists and ethnologists sought for, because language and religion alike are culturally adapted traits by unrelated peoples. For example, Christianity is not native to Mexico and Islam is not native to Indonesia, but no doubt these countries' peoples converted to them to become virtual majorities.

[Abramelin]

Don't tell me... it's about Edo Nyland, right?

It's a good thing Jaylemurph has left this place, or he would get a heart attack.

[crystal sage]

The Guanches were closely related to the Berbers, as has been proven by genetics.

No surprise to anyone, really.

Unless you believe in all those "Atlantis" fantasies.

As an extra: Berbers, on avarage, are very 'white', or 'Caucasian' looking.

And it appears to me THAT is the real topic.

.

Yes... I heard some have the most amazing blue eyes or green eyes...

Hey I see 'Atlantis' as a generic term for the many prehistoric super civilizations.. (by this I mean suprisingly more advanced politically, spiritually technologically, at the times when most historians think there was nothing but some club weilding and fur clothed cavemen about who had barely invented the fire...aqnd could only converse in grunts and crude sign language ) nothing supernatural.