Believers and Skeptics, Let's turn the tables

[Lt_Ripley]

why and what does religion offer hope for ? under that hope is fear . Fear is why hope exists.

lol I'm quoting myself.

I had asked a very spiritual friend of mine about hope and desire. How hope may cover something other than a fear based emotion . His reply was desire is fear based. you want and out of that want you hope for it , under that hope for it is the fear you may not get or acheive that desire. faith , love knows you have it or have what you need. a very strict adherence for sure . to falter is human however.

thanks Conservative - He was a great friend.

[brave_new_world]

I see no reason why we should believe in God -- the simplest answer is most often the best: why should God have always existed and then he created the universe rather than the universe always existing?

Take for an example the Hindu notion of God which they call Brahman. God and creation are one and the same. There is no creation because Brahman and the universe which are not distinct have always existed eternally.

[bornagainuhmanduh]

I see no reason why we should believe in God -- the simplest answer is most often the best: why should God have always existed and then he created the universe rather than the universe always existing? Not only that, but there is a severe lack of proof that any God figure exists, at best, it is subjective knowledge. Plus, seeing how many different interpretations of God(s) there are, it seems strange that, if true, God would not simply pick one form to manifest himself in--why would God want to trick everyone into fighting eachother (certainly religion has caused strife)?

P.S. I want to see SC argue from a Christian perspective

Oh and sorry about your dog ripley

Why would this be all there is? When we look at the order of the universe, and all of it's complexity, it becomes obvious that God created it. How could all of this come out of chaos?

To your point about different interpretations of gods: Out of all of the religions out there, Christianity makes the most sense. Look at Buddhism for a moment, one of their "hells" or "reincarnations" is to come back as a hungry ghost. As a hungry ghost, you would run around drinking puddles of water, or urine. This is simply a crude explanation for evaporation.

Also, God hasn't tricked people into fighting and killing one another, people have done that on their own. Why do we blame God for the actions of people?

Also, without religious guidance, how would we know wrong from right? How would we have a moral foundation to live by? Without law based on the principles taught by religion, people would be living in decadence, our society would fall as Rome did.

Edited March 26, 2007 by uhmanduh

[texasgirlheather]

I don't believe in god. There is no proof, if there were a god and it wanted us to know he/she/it was there, I'm sure it would find a way. I have all the information I need, within me, to live my life to the fullest. When I die, I will find out just like everybody else what the truth is. We'll all be standing in the same line to be judged. If there were such a thing as a god, that is. I've got about as good of a chance of anyone else, I reckon, to be judged good or bad. It's all a fairy tale, though, so I don't worry about it. It's kind of quaint, like just-so tales my third grade teacher used to read to me, the ones that earlier, uneducated cultures told to explain how things came about.

But if people want to believe in it, that's fine for them. I will never teach my kids that there is anything bigger than they in the universe. Who knows, all the aliens could be gods? Or probably there just isn't one. Really, the whole god idea is just one of the last remnants of our collective primitive self, trying to reconcile our fear of death with our ego. There is so much life has to offer, it is truly just backward to spend time worrying about it when nothing can be proven until we die anyway.

I used to wonder why everyone worried about it, but I read a lot and educated myself, and I finally realized that there are many things going on psycholgically for people who hold onto god theories as beliefs. They are usually suffering from low self-esteem, and so must worship something so as to not confront their own issues. Also, it gives people an excuse for their more base human expressions to be brought to the forefront and justified, such as hatred, oppression, and exclusivity. It is basic to the human ego to: One, feel superior to others, and two, need to prove to itself that it will indeed outlast death. Otherwise, the human mind might snap in some of these people who can not handle reality without their myths to cling to. Through education, advancement, and tolerance, these traits will eventually die out, when more people have been the product of an enlightened school system and culture. Right now, I think we are still just experiencing the tail end of more ignorant, less educated times.

We understand the way the world around us works now; and I do not need fanciful explanations of a god, that just made everything out of dirt, to placate me because the answers are there for you to discover with education.

I do not believe in any of the gods I have heard about because they all seem to be just too much like people, which makes me wonder: Hmm... that's a pretty big coincidence. If there were a god, I don't think he would have any of the qualities that I hear people ascribe to her/it.

Edited March 28, 2007 by texasgirlheather

[texasgirlheather]

Come on, Brave New World, role play with us. Being someone else is fun

Edited March 26, 2007 by texasgirlheather

[texasgirlheather]

Oh yes, the ever-present "C" word. Context. Whenever we post a passage to back up our claims it's automatically thrown out, because it's "out of context". Yet when you believers post a passage, it's automatically true and real and in context Am I the only one seeing double-standards here? When you find conclusive proof of the existence of the Bible-God, then you can come speak to me. Until then, leave me be, ok!!!!

~ PA

LOL, "context" is the go-to word when they don't really know what one of their bible verses means.

[Horus Christos]

Come on, Brave New World, role play with us. Being someone else is fun

uh ok I'll try. I believe that only Jesus Christ our Lord can redeem me from my sins. If I do not believe in Him or in everything written in the Bible which is the word of God and therefore absolutely true....God will justly cast me into hell and torture me for all eternity. It is my mission on earth therefore to try and convince everyone of the divinity of Christ and the truth of everything written in the bible so that they can be saved. Thank God Noah saved 2 of everything in the world....that must've been one big ship.....and of course, that means that millions of other beasts were killed due to the wickedness of man.

Nope, just can't do it and feel good about it. From what I can see it's not very fun being a fundamentalist.

[texasgirlheather]

PA,

We are limited in our capacity to understand what God was trying to teach us and many mistakes have been, and I'm sure will be, made in trying to fully understand this message.

The core of the teachings however, of love for all, love for God and tolerance towards those who have not realised the message, remain the same throughout. Yes, some people have perverted this message for their own ends but this does not make the message wrong - just as Einstein's discoveries which led, via others, to the development of nuclear weapons does not make them evil or wrong.

I don't have a problem with people saying that god teaches love for all, because that fits in with my beliefs, but what you are not taking into consideration is, that the "some people" that have perverted this "message" have killed huge numbers of people! It's fine to sit here on a forum and say, ok, some people have perverted the message, but you don't seem to be concerned with the particulars of it. That's not showing very much love. That's my problem with religious people, I hate to use the word, "hypocrite," because I am truly not a judgemental person, but in this case, I have to point out how wrong you are. This argument you are trying to use is just a veil for people being allowed to interpret their "message" from their "god" however they want. I'm sorry, but it doesn't wash with me, it's incredibly damaging if you happen to be on the wrong end of whatever god it is that YOU follow. But, to each their own.

[texasgirlheather]

This is like that "Bizarro World" episode of Seinfeld.

Great idea, uhmanduh.

[bornagainuhmanduh]

I don't have a problem with people saying that god teaches love for all, because that fits in with my beliefs, but what you are not taking into consideration is, that the "some people" that have perverted this "message" have killed huge numbers of people! It's fine to sit here on a forum and say, ok, some people have perverted the message, but you don't seem to be concerned with the particulars of it. That's not showing very much love. That's my problem with religious people, I hate to use the word, "hypocrite," because I am truly not a judgemental person, but in this case, I have to point out how wrong you are. This argument you are trying to use is just a veil for people being allowed to interpret their "message" from their "god" however they want. I'm sorry, but it doesn't wash with me, it's incredibly damaging if you happen to be on the wrong end of whatever god it is that YOU follow. But, to each their own.

Exactly! It is people who have perverted that message and according to God's law, they will be judged accordingly. You can't blame God for the sins of people. Also, I keep getting the impression that many of the atheists/non-believers are implying that those of us who do believe in God are illogical. At this point in my life, I have come to my beliefs through logic. I look at the universe, I look at the world around me and I have kept up with science. If there is one thing that most people seem to agree on, it is that none of us can prove or disprove the existence of God. By that token, how could either choice be illogical or logical.

Texas, this is extremely Bizzare! I don't think I saw that episode yet! I'll have to keep my eye out for it.

(I hope you weren't implying that it's bad!)

[airika]

I don't believe in god. There is no proof, if there was a god and it wanted us to know he/she/it was there, I'm sure it would find a way. I have all the information I need, within me, to live my life to the fullest. When I die, I will find out just like everybody else what the truth is. We'll all be standing in the same line to be judged. If there were such a thing as a god, that is. I've got about as good of a chance of anyone else, I reckon, to be judged good or bad. It's all a fairy tale, though, so I don't worry about it. It's kind of quaint, like just-so tales my third grade teacher used to read to me, the ones that earlier, uneducated cultures told to explain how things came about.

But if people want to believe in it, that's fine for them. I will never teach my kids that there is anything bigger than they in the universe. Who knows, all the aliens could be gods? Or probably there just isn't one. Really, the whole god idea is just one of the last remnants of our collective primitive self, trying to reconcile our fear of death with our ego. There is so much life has to offer, it is truly just backward to spend time worrying about it when nothing can be proven until we die anyway.

I used to wonder why everyone worried about it, but I read a lot and educated myself, and I finally realized that there are many things going on psycholgically for people who hold onto god theories as beliefs. They are usually suffering from low self-esteem, and so must worship something so as to not confront their own issues. Also, it gives people an excuse for their more base human expressions to be brought to the forefront and justified, such as hatred, oppression, and exclusivity. It is basic to the human ego to: One, feel superior to others, and two, need to prove to itself that it will indeed outlast death. Otherwise, the human mind might snap in some of these people who can not handle reality without their myths to cling to. Through education, advancement, and tolerance, these traits will eventually die out, when more people have been the product of an enlightened school system and culture. Right now, I think we are still just experiencing the tail end of more ignorant, less educated times.

We understand the way the world around us works now; and I do not need fanciful explanations of a god, that just made everything out of dirt, to placate me because the answers are there for you to discover with education.

I do not believe in any of the gods I have heard about because they all seem to be just too much like people, which makes me wonder: Hmm... that's a pretty big coincidence. If there were a god, I don't think he would have any of the qualities that I hear people ascribe to her/it.

Heather, I feel your anger in your words. You seem as though you have much pain. I can't hand you proof that God exists, but I have seen, and I know in my heart that God is. I don't feel that I am superior to others, I'm just grateful that I know where my place is in heaven. There is an afterlife for everyone, mine will be basking in the glory that is God's love. I understand that the stories written in the bible all seem mythological, and I feel that most of them are. I feel that events were slightly exaggerated and misunderstood by the authors, but I can say with certainty, that God's love is shown all throughout the bible, and all throughout those who will open their hearts to him. God's love for you is so great, that he gave his son to die for our sins. "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever shall believeth in him, shall not perish, but have eternal life." -John 3:16-

My dear, I don't feel superior, I feel humbled to be loved by such a wonderful diety.

"But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever" -Psalm 52:8 I feel God's love in everything that I see, and I wish for everyone to feel the same love that I do. God didn't just make everything out of dirt, he made us from him.

[Horus Christos]

If there is one thing that most people seem to agree on, it is that none of us can prove or disprove the existence of God. By that token, how could either choice be illogical or logical.

Exactly right. I would like to add that each interpretation of god is equally invalid, for our limited human minds cannot grasp the concept of the true nature of God. I would agree that my incorrect conception of God is equally as false as the orthodox christian view of God, or the Bhuddist view, or Muslim view, etc.

[airika]

I don't have a problem with people saying that god teaches love for all, because that fits in with my beliefs, but what you are not taking into consideration is, that the "some people" that have perverted this "message" have killed huge numbers of people! It's fine to sit here on a forum and say, ok, some people have perverted the message, but you don't seem to be concerned with the particulars of it. That's not showing very much love. That's my problem with religious people, I hate to use the word, "hypocrite," because I am truly not a judgemental person, but in this case, I have to point out how wrong you are. This argument you are trying to use is just a veil for people being allowed to interpret their "message" from their "god" however they want. I'm sorry, but it doesn't wash with me, it's incredibly damaging if you happen to be on the wrong end of whatever god it is that YOU follow. But, to each their own.

My dear, for someone that is not a hypocrit, or judgemental, it seems to flow extremely easily from you. You don't get to know people for who they are, or what they believe, You seem to just attack. I understand that you have had a bad experience, maybe more, concerning religion, but Faith and forgiveness will never harm, only help. I don't believe that you need to have faith in organized religion, but faith in the fact the God loves you, is far better then faith in nothing. One that holds onto their anger and hatred as you have, uses that to fill other voids in their life.

[AtlantisRises]

ParanoidAndroid... You claim that context is a dodge used by we Christians to invalidate the arguments of Aethiests, yet when you get right down to it Context IS incredibly important.

The most important thing to remember is that the bible was written a LONG time ago. It was written in a style familiar to the people of these days. Andd to those who point to the Old Testiment as proof of the barbarity of God I remind you that the new Testement Invalidates much of that.

Though indeed many of the ancient laws seem barbaric to us they were appropriate for the time, and whats more today they are all less then the greater law of grace that our Lord Jesus died to bring to our world.

One problem that many Non-believers seem to have is seperating the Old Testiment and the New Testiment. The fact is that the Old Testiment was appropriate for the time in which it was written, however today it is no longer so.

[airika]

ParanoidAndroid... You claim that context is a dodge used by we Christians to invalidate the arguments of Aethiests, yet when you get right down to it Context IS incredibly important.

The most important thing to remember is that the bible was written a LONG time ago. It was written in a style familiar to the people of these days. Andd to those who point to the Old Testiment as proof of the barbarity of God I remind you that the new Testement Invalidates much of that.

Though indeed many of the ancient laws seem barbaric to us they were appropriate for the time, and whats more today they are all less then the greater law of grace that our Lord Jesus died to bring to our world.

One problem that many Non-believers seem to have is seperating the Old Testiment and the New Testiment. The fact is that the Old Testiment was appropriate for the time in which it was written, however today it is no longer so.

I think you worded that beautifully!

[texasgirlheather]

Texas, this is extremely Bizzare! I don't think I saw that episode yet! I'll have to keep my eye out for it.

(I hope you weren't implying that it's bad!)

Oh no, not at all, it's eye-opening and fun. I think it was a brilliant idea. 'Twas getting kind of stuffy on the old boards, we all needed to spice up our life with a little role playing. Haha, but seriously it is good for really living in the other person's shoes for a while. Helps you think of things you wouldn't think of ordinarily, usually most people look at others from their own pov, look at someone else's thoughts just long enough to pick up what they don't like and then run off again, we very rarely try to get into the other person's mind and live in their thoughts/beliefs long enough to use the other person's thinking, like really dwelling there quietly for a minute and getting the whole thought process, not just the one thing about it that we disagree with. I just meant, disorienting and different, but beneficial, not really bad. Like we're all being stood on our ear by living in the other person's mind for a bit.

Edited March 26, 2007 by texasgirlheather

[texasgirlheather]

uh ok I'll try. I believe that only Jesus Christ our Lord can redeem me from my sins. If I do not believe in Him or in everything written in the Bible which is the word of God and therefore absolutely true....God will justly cast me into hell and torture me for all eternity. It is my mission on earth therefore to try and convince everyone of the divinity of Christ and the truth of everything written in the bible so that they can be saved. Thank God Noah saved 2 of everything in the world....that must've been one big ship.....and of course, that means that millions of other beasts were killed due to the wickedness of man.

Nope, just can't do it and feel good about it. From what I can see it's not very fun being a fundamentalist.

I was being smarmy, it's not really fun like wheee! It is good brain exercise, though. When you be the other person for a while, you get a chance to understand them a little more. I'm not trying to make you agree with anything. It's just a communication game. I promise the Christian won't be permanent; it'll wash off when you're done. ~k~

[airika]

I was being smarmy, it's not really fun like wheee! It is good brain exercise, though. When you be the other person for a while, you get a chance to understand them a little more. I'm not trying to make you agree with anything. It's just a communication game. I promise the Christian won't be permanent; it'll wash off when you're done. ~k~

I have to agree with you. It's not fun as in a thrill ride, but it's fun trying to understand how and why other's think the way they do. Being closed minded and calling people names isn't a nice way to live.

[texasgirlheather]

uh ok I'll try. I believe that only Jesus Christ our Lord can redeem me from my sins. If I do not believe in Him or in everything written in the Bible which is the word of God and therefore absolutely true....God will justly cast me into hell and torture me for all eternity. It is my mission on earth therefore to try and convince everyone of the divinity of Christ and the truth of everything written in the bible so that they can be saved. Thank God Noah saved 2 of everything in the world....that must've been one big ship.....and of course, that means that millions of other beasts were killed due to the wickedness of man.

Nope, just can't do it and feel good about it. From what I can see it's not very fun being a fundamentalist.

Why do you believe you are a sinner? What if people don't want to be convinced that they are sinners? Um, yes that ship of yours must have been big, indeed.

[texasgirlheather]

Exactly! It is people who have perverted that message and according to God's law, they will be judged accordingly. You can't blame God for the sins of people. Also, I keep getting the impression that many of the atheists/non-believers are implying that those of us who do believe in God are illogical. At this point in my life, I have come to my beliefs through logic. I look at the universe, I look at the world around me and I have kept up with science. If there is one thing that most people seem to agree on, it is that none of us can prove or disprove the existence of God. By that token, how could either choice be illogical or logical.

Texas, this is extremely Bizzare! I don't think I saw that episode yet! I'll have to keep my eye out for it.

(I hope you weren't implying that it's bad!)

Okay, great, I can reassure all the people who have been harassed/murdered/raped in the name of "god," that after we're all dead, some imaginary being is going to judge the person that did that to them! I'm sure we'll all rest easier knowing that. I don't mean to be cynical, but it's kind of hard not to be. If god made the people, then why can't I blame him for their sins? And why do you call god a him? Do you know something everyone else doesn't?

You see a god when you look at the world because that's what you want to see. So, on the other hand, you seem to be saying that neither you nor science can prove a god. I think if it really makes you happy to believe in one, that's fine. But does it ever bother you that you believe in something literally, that can't be proven when just about everything else can be proven? I mean, is it a phase for you, do you think? People go through so many phases, belief systems, I really think if you ride this one out, you will grow from it somehow. That is just human nature to take the best out of every experience.

Edited March 26, 2007 by texasgirlheather

[texasgirlheather]

Heather, I feel your anger in your words. You seem as though you have much pain. I can't hand you proof that God exists, but I have seen, and I know in my heart that God is. I don't feel that I am superior to others, I'm just grateful that I know where my place is in heaven. There is an afterlife for everyone, mine will be basking in the glory that is God's love. I understand that the stories written in the bible all seem mythological, and I feel that most of them are. I feel that events were slightly exaggerated and misunderstood by the authors, but I can say with certainty, that God's love is shown all throughout the bible, and all throughout those who will open their hearts to him. God's love for you is so great, that he gave his son to die for our sins. "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever shall believeth in him, shall not perish, but have eternal life." -John 3:16-

My dear, I don't feel superior, I feel humbled to be loved by such a wonderful diety.

"But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever" -Psalm 52:8 I feel God's love in everything that I see, and I wish for everyone to feel the same love that I do. God didn't just make everything out of dirt, he made us from him.

I'm really not angry at you; I don't know what pain you may be speaking of. I don't understand why your god would have to give its son for me. Not the most loving thing I can think of, killing your own son. So, what do you think is MY eternal afterlife? How can you know! That is ridiculous. There is no proof, no one will know until they die.

[Cadetak]

I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of any god. I don't like to assume things like that. If a god does exist I would never worship it, no matter how good a deity he or she is.

I question everything and assume nothing. The lost arts of probability and reason are the tools of my belief.

As the sig says I'm half skeptic and half believer, I have all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses. I'm the only one who can walk on both worlds.(hehe)

[+Link of Hyrule]

I don't believe in god. There is no proof, if there was a god and it wanted us to know he/she/it was there, I'm sure it would find a way. I have all the information I need, within me, to live my life to the fullest. When I die, I will find out just like everybody else what the truth is. We'll all be standing in the same line to be judged. If there were such a thing as a god, that is. I've got about as good of a chance of anyone else, I reckon, to be judged good or bad. It's all a fairy tale, though, so I don't worry about it. It's kind of quaint, like just-so tales my third grade teacher used to read to me, the ones that earlier, uneducated cultures told to explain how things came about.

But if people want to believe in it, that's fine for them. I will never teach my kids that there is anything bigger than they in the universe. Who knows, all the aliens could be gods? Or probably there just isn't one. Really, the whole god idea is just one of the last remnants of our collective primitive self, trying to reconcile our fear of death with our ego. There is so much life has to offer, it is truly just backward to spend time worrying about it when nothing can be proven until we die anyway.

I used to wonder why everyone worried about it, but I read a lot and educated myself, and I finally realized that there are many things going on psycholgically for people who hold onto god theories as beliefs. They are usually suffering from low self-esteem, and so must worship something so as to not confront their own issues. Also, it gives people an excuse for their more base human expressions to be brought to the forefront and justified, such as hatred, oppression, and exclusivity. It is basic to the human ego to: One, feel superior to others, and two, need to prove to itself that it will indeed outlast death. Otherwise, the human mind might snap in some of these people who can not handle reality without their myths to cling to. Through education, advancement, and tolerance, these traits will eventually die out, when more people have been the product of an enlightened school system and culture. Right now, I think we are still just experiencing the tail end of more ignorant, less educated times.

We understand the way the world around us works now; and I do not need fanciful explanations of a god, that just made everything out of dirt, to placate me because the answers are there for you to discover with education.

I do not believe in any of the gods I have heard about because they all seem to be just too much like people, which makes me wonder: Hmm... that's a pretty big coincidence. If there were a god, I don't think he would have any of the qualities that I hear people ascribe to her/it.

Well said, texas :clap: :tsu: :clap:

Besides, if the God of the Bible is the real God, i'd rather die than follow such a blatantly evil creature (mass murder/genocide, rape, slavery, and that's just touching the tip of the ice-berg). If the Bible-God exists, it is clearly insane.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Paranoid Android

[texasgirlheather]

I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of any god. I don't like to assume things like that. If a god does exist I would never worship it, no matter how good a deity he or she is.

I question everything and assume nothing. The lost arts of probability and reason are the tools of my belief.

As the sig says I'm half skeptic and half believer, I have all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses. I'm the only one who can walk on both worlds.(hehe)

So, are you comfortable participating in this game in some guise or another?

[airika]

I'm really not angry at you; I don't know what pain you may be speaking of. I don't understand why your god would have to give its son for me. Not the most loving thing I can think of, killing your own son. So, what do you think is MY eternal afterlife? How can you know! That is ridiculous. There is no proof, no one will know until they die.

My dear, you don't understand, he didn't HAVE to give his son, he did it to show his love for all of us. He loves us all so much, and to prove it, he gave the life of his son. I don't know your eternal afterlife, I only know my own.