consequences of failure in Iraq

[supercar]

Congressman Dana Rohrabacher

February 16,2007

All of us have been to heartbreaking wakes, funerals, burials; all of

us have gone to the bases to see off our Reservists and our National

Guardsmen and to wish them Godspeed; and all of us have been on the

tarmac to greet them when they return, sometimes having lost comrades,

killed or wounded. All of us want to do what is right for our defenders

and for the future of our country.

So we need to be extraordinarily careful. Whatever we do today honors

their efforts and their sacrifice. We should not be the authors of a

policy that ensures the lives of these American heroes have been lost

in vain. If at the end of this episode our country is at greater risk,

then indeed their lives will have been lost in vain.

I am supporting this last effort, this last chance, if you will, to

see that our commitment to Iraq will not result in failure. A failure

now will have consequences that are worse than the price that we are

now paying in blood and treasure. We do not have the option of walking

away without consequences. No amount of midwest corn pressed into

ethanol will allow us to ignore the Middle East.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/ge...cid=cr16fe07-46

[knott]

Are you just posting news?

[Terra8]

An article I read on topic.

Gold Star Dad Says Anti-War Dems 'Too Busy' to Meet Him

By Nathan Burchfiel

CNSNews.com Staff Writer

April 12, 2007

(CNSNews.com) - Leading Democratic proponents of setting a timetable for pulling troops out of Iraq have refused to meet with the father of a dead soldier who believes a withdrawal would mean his son's life was "wasted."

Army SSG Joshua Hager was wounded near Ramadi when an improvised explosive device blew up under his vehicle on Feb. 22, 2007. He died the next day from his injuries.

Hager's father, Kris Hager, wants opponents of the war to rethink their position because he believes ending U.S. involvement would mean his son's life was wasted there.

"How do I tell my grandson his father's life was wasted by Congress?" Hager said in an email.

Hager told Cybercast News Service that information he's received from his son's commanders led him to believe the bomb that killed Joshua originated in Iran. He believes withdrawing troops from Iraq will weaken the United States' ability to pressure Iran to stop supplying insurgent forces with weapons.

Hager said he feels entitled to meet with prominent opponents of the war, even if he is not one of their constituents, because "they have taken a national stance."

"They talk all the time about the people -- 70 percent of the Americans want them to get us out. They're not talking in the bounds of their constituency," he said. "People like Murtha and Kerry who have traded on their military records, they owe me a chance to at least talk. I deserve that."

"I've seen them embracing Cindy Sheehan," Hager added, referring to the prominent anti-war activist whose son was killed in Iraq. "They make themselves accessible to people who agree with them. I think it's a small enough club of fathers who have lost sons that I can get that access, at their convenience."

Full Article

[Bob26003]

3500 Dead Americans, Hundreds of Thousands of dead Iraqis, Biggest deficit in History, and Exxon's profits are through the roof.

That is the cost of the War in Iraq.

If we pulled out. I think it would calm the situation. The existing Iraqi Government would topple. The Iraqis would develope their own Government. And chances are, the Big Oil boys would lose access to the fields.

[Terra8]

We need to:

Make the needed investments in equipment and manpower so that we can project power to protect America wherever and whenever necessary.

Eliminate Osama Bin Laden, destroy terrorist networks like al Qaeda, finish the job in Afghanistan and end the threat posed by the Taliban.

Double the size of our Special Forces, increase our human intelligence capabilities, and ensure our intelligence is free from political pressure.

Eliminate terrorist breeding grounds by combating the economic, social, and political conditions that allow extremism to thrive; lead international efforts to uphold and defend human rights; and renew longstanding alliances that have advanced our national security objectives.

Insist that Iraqis make the political compromises necessary to unite their country and defeat the insurgency; promote regional diplomacy; and strongly encourage our allies and other nations to play a constructive role.

Secure by 2010 loose nuclear materials that terrorists could use to build nuclear weapons or "dirty bombs."

Redouble efforts to stop nuclear weapons development in Iran and North Korea.

Not cut and run.

[glorybebe]

3500 Dead Americans, Hundreds of Thousands of dead Iraqis, Biggest deficit in History, and Exxon's profits are through the roof.

That is the cost of the War in Iraq.

If we pulled out. I think it would calm the situation. The existing Iraqi Government would topple. The Iraqis would develope their own Government. And chances are, the Big Oil boys would lose access to the fields.

Exactly....$$$$$$$$$$$

[Bob26003]

So how long should we stay Terra? 20, 30 years.

This is just like Nam. The Iraqi Gov. forces are never going to be able to do their job, just like the South Vietnamese werent able to. And as soon as we left, they toppled. Same deal.

[glorybebe]

So how long should we stay Terra? 20, 30 years.

This is just like Nam. The Iraqi Gov. forces are never going to be able to do their job, just like the South Vietnamese werent able to. And as soon as we left, they toppled. Same deal.

Let them topple, then it's up to them to catch up to the rest of the world in technology. If they really wanted help, they could ask for it.

[Lord Umbarger]

So how long should we stay Terra? 20, 30 years.

Until the job is done. If you are building a house, when do you quit? When the work gets hard or when you have finished it?

This is just like Nam.

In a sence, it kind of is. Our soldiers are in harms way and the left is trying to cut funding to the troops. Yet again they are in favor of just running away. Yet again, they neglect to think about what our other allies in the area will say when they see us running away. (How can we expect the U.S. to protect us after the way the dropped Iraq?). Yep, just like VN, we will be forced to leave another friendly nation high and dry while we wonder why we are viewed as a paper tiger. Yeah, a lot of people think of the U.S. as a country that can't finish what we start. Were did they get that idea from? Yet again we are at war and yet again the left is siding with our enemies.

[EmpressStarXVII]

3500 Dead Americans, Hundreds of Thousands of dead Iraqis, Biggest deficit in History, and Exxon's profits are through the roof.

That is the cost of the War in Iraq.

If we pulled out. I think it would calm the situation. The existing Iraqi Government would topple. The Iraqis would develope their own Government. And chances are, the Big Oil boys would lose access to the fields.

I agree with everything you said except the last part. You're in a dream world if you think the US government would allow anything to happen to our hands being taken out of the oil fields.

[Fluffybunny]

Until the job is done. If you are building a house, when do you quit? When the work gets hard or when you have finished it?

Well, a good contractor knows a money pit when he works on one, and knows when to stop when he is behind.

This is a money pit.

Not cut and run.

I love when this term is used. It is like "stay the course" and all of the other cliched material presented by bush and buddies and overused to the point that they make my skin crawl like some businessperson that uses "Think outside of the box" like they are the first one to use it. "Cut and run" is the same kind of banal "two minute hate" material that this government seems to run on. Anytime anyone offers any plan that includes American soldiers leaving iraq at any timeframe or benchmark other than whatever magical mystery goals that bush has, they are accused of the famous "cut and run" as if somebody in a striped shirt is supposed to throw a yellow flag and penalize them for having a differing opinion on the matter... it is just silly.

Bush had 4 years. He blew it to a point that it can't be fixed by military means, and bush is not exactly known for his foreign policy finess so I doubt he is going to run in there is fix the rift between the shia and the sunnis.

If anyone here has spent any time in Vegas(or chose your local gambling establishment), you have probably seen the guy sitting in front of the slot machine in a cold sweat, white knuckles on the machines arm throwing away his rent money because he "knows the machine is due to payoff". It doesn't work that way...another dollar into the machine doesn't make the chances of winning any better on the next pull, and another soldier in a coffin doesn't close the rift between religous sects that have been ignored from the getgo.

You can use whatever lingo you choose(or the president chooses for you), but the bottom line is that this war has been bungled by our dear leader and his buddies to the tune of so many billions of wasted dollars that we will be paying off debt for the rest of our lifetimes. We cannot continue to throw more soldiers at iraq knowing that sooner or later we will become to glorious liberators that we were told we would be received as.

I would invite anyone who feels so strongly about the war that they are willing to send young men and women to die for it to help spread the load out; help where it matters. If all of the war supports joined the military, then something might happen... (My guess would be that the support for the war would finally drop to zero, but that is another thread...)

The failure already happened some 4 years ago when folks were busy planning "Shock and Awe" bombing sessions with perfectly placed news cameras to catch all of the explosions, but ignoring the effect those explosions would have the citizens, and what kind of political problems were already in place in the region for far longer than our country has even been around.

If you want to destroy a country, "Shock and Awe" is a great thing to plan. If you want to build a democracy, you might want to figure out if that is what the citizens want and if there are any little problems that might occur in the power vaccuum that will follow the bombings...like the civil war we have now. Oh, right, it isn't a civil war...

We blew it. We killed thousands that didn't need to die and have sent our economy into ruin...yet people still believe it can be fixed...

[Terra8]

So how long should we stay Terra? 20, 30 years.

How long should we stay? Well the fight to defeat communism took us 45 years and included the Korean and Vietnam wars. I view the Vietnam war as a success. We commited troops to Vietnam to prevent the domino theory of southeast asian countries falling to communism. The Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia stayed free of communism because of our commitment in Vietnam.

(Vietnam currently has one of the strongest growing CAPITOLISTIC economies )

The Iraqi Gov. forces are never going to be able to do their job, just like the South Vietnamese werent able to. And as soon as we left, they toppled. Same deal.

Bob ... NEVER?? You are one of the most negative people. Have some faith.

And as for "as soon as we left" Vietnam 2 million more Cambodians were killed or starved to death.

If we leave ... Iran doubles it's realestate and oil revenues

Yeah, a lot of people think of the U.S. as a country that can't finish what we start. Were did they get that idea from? Yet again we are at war and yet again the left is siding with our enemies.

Lord ... you are correct sir!

I know I fully understood what we were getting into after September 11th.

On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion.

Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Finding Abu Abbas living just outside of Bagdad constitutes harboring a terrorist correct?

The only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows.

I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.

Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future.

We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain.

All of the above quotes are from President Bush's address to a joint session of Congress and the American People 9/20/2001

When President Bush made this speech we were United ... (90% I believe)

Right now we are the Un-United States. I can only imagine where we would be if there weren't so many Turncoats.

[Caesar]

I think the job for the Military is done (the war aspect) but I think we should stay to help train the Iraqi police and army no more then a year. I think while this may look like a a cival war, in the long run it will probly be much better without Saddam Hussein in power. I believe it was just a matter of time when he would start his programs of WMD as soon as the U.N. weapons inspectors left. I also think with the money he had, it made him much more worst then some believe.

There are many examples of Saddam Hussein's regime planned terrorist attacks against the United States and connections with terrorist groups, people like Abu Nidal and Zarqawi.

Russia's warning

Al-Qaida in Iraq's al-Zarqawi 'terminated'

Abu Nidal Organization (Iraq, extremists)

To say its all Bushs fault or he lied for oil is nonsense here is a quote from Hillary Clinton

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security."

clinton.senate.gov

Transcript: Clinton defends U.S. attack on Iraq

Bill Clinton defends U.S. attack on Iraq (Thursday, December 17, 1998)

There are many other Democrates that claimed there were wmd before Bush was elected

statements made by Democratic leaders about Saddam Hussein's acquisition or possession of weapons of mass destruction

I believe time will show if this is a success or failer. I also think that the attacks of 9/11 has made the U.S. look at threats like these more seriously. just look at whats been said about these Bush coverup pre-9/11 knowledge nonsense!

[Fluffybunny]

Right now we are the Un-United States. I can only imagine where we would be if there weren't so many Turncoats.

How do you define a "turncoat"?

[AROCES]

So how long should we stay Terra? 20, 30 years.

This is just like Nam. The Iraqi Gov. forces are never going to be able to do their job, just like the South Vietnamese werent able to. And as soon as we left, they toppled. Same deal.

Should we had set a timetable then on Western Europe? South Korea?

[Unlimited]

Should we had set a timetable then on Western Europe? South Korea?

30 years later vietnam is a prosperous country...If we leave iraq maybe in 30 years it can heal?....

[supercar]

John McCain made some interesting remarks about the war yesterday:

'I understand the frustration caused by our mistakes in this war. I sympathize with the fatigue of the American people ... but I also know the toll a lost war takes on an army and a country'.

'A defeat for the United States is a cause for mourning, not celebrating,' McCain said. 'And determining how the United States can avert such a disaster should encourage the most sober, public-spirited reasoning among our elected leaders, not the giddy anticipation of the next election'.

http://www.aina.org/news/2007041292539.htm

[Unlimited]

how do you guage a win or a loss...2 more big bombings today....saddams gone we won the war....and mccains claim they will follow us home is nuts... ..If the US wants to win the war?...I would pull out of the troubled citys, then pattern bomb them into rubble....handing out candy didnt work...you've killed approx 600,000 people...and you lost?..whats another million?; to a guy like mccain who only has his eye on the oval office he will never reach...

Edited April 14, 2007 by limited

[Terra8]

How do you define a "turncoat"?

The way it is defined

Noun 1. turncoat - a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc.

apostate, deserter, ratter, recreant, renegade

quitter - a person who gives up too easily

If we were to "CUT AND RUN" (sorry it's just easier to type than "Refuse to fund, Demand the withdrawal of our troops to leave the government that the Iraqi people Elected to dangle in the wind and watch the slaughter of any person that supported the effort and to negate the sacrifice of any who has been killed or wounded" ) Iran's realestate and oil revenue would double.

Please finish this comment: "When the going gets tough the left _______________________________."

[Unlimited]

The way it is defined

If we were to "CUT AND RUN" (sorry it's just easier to type than "Refuse to fund, Demand the withdrawal of our troops to leave the government that the Iraqi people Elected to dangle in the wind and watch the slaughter of any person that supported the effort and to negate the sacrifice of any who has been killed or wounded" ) Iran's realestate and oil revenue would double.

Please finish this comment: "When the going gets tough the left _______________________________."

save their own country?....from out of control spending; on maintaining a civil war half way around the world...

[Siara]

(CNSNews.com) - Leading Democratic proponents of setting a timetable for pulling troops out of Iraq have refused to meet with the father of a dead soldier who believes a withdrawal would mean his son's life was "wasted."

The brutal reality is that his son's life was wasted. It's so sad, it's hard to know what to say. Everyone (myself included) reaches for some euphemism to brush this horrible truth aside.

[Unlimited]

The brutal reality is that his son's life was wasted. It's so sad, it's hard to know what to say. Everyone (myself included) reaches for some euphemism to brush this horrible truth aside.

his life wasnt wasted ....he died with his buddies...serving his country....

[Siara]

his life wasnt wasted ....he died with his buddies...serving his country....

That's true. He lived fully as an extremely admirable person and probably impacted everyone around him in a positive way. I didn't mean to be disrespectful.

But each soldier's death is a seperate tragedy and the terrible amount of tragedy that a war generates should make us very hesitant to engage in war.

I'll try to think of a better way to say this but... the fact that this guy's kid died heroically doesn't justify the cause for which he died. I think everyone in America should be absolutely sick over the amount of death this has caused.

[Unlimited]

That's true. He lived fully as an extremely admirable person and probably impacted everyone around him in a positive way. I didn't mean to be disrespectful.

But each soldier's death is a seperate tragedy and the terrible amount of tragedy that a war generates should make us very hesitant to engage in war.

I'll try to think of a better way to say this but... the fact that this guy's kid died heroically doesn't justify the cause for which he died. I think everyone in America should be absolutely sick over the amount of death this has caused.

good post...I agree; everytime I hear of another kid dying for the lies...it hurts.

[AROCES]

30 years later vietnam is a prosperous country...If we leave iraq maybe in 30 years it can heal?....

What we did in Vietnam is made it known that we will not stand by and watch the communist expansion on the Far East.

Should we then have just allow Cambodia, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, The Philippines to fall to the communist and waited 30 years in hope of it will be properous? Should we then have left Kuwait alone and hope in 30 years it would be free again from Saddam? Should we wait 30 years before the world withdrew it's sanction, embargo, no fly zone and Resolutions on Iraq? Basically you are saying we do nothing and just hope for the best.