Was satan the chief musician in heaven?

[Omnaka]

MR Halfhand will do......

So what your saying is that it is disrespectful to attack anothers beliefs?...... maybe I do care about that .....SO if it seems like you are being singled out, please dont feel that way ....Mr Halfhand takes on the whole room .....B

Being disrespectful to one is something I my self would apologise for after learning that I have hurt another, and you saying You are -proud to disrespect others , or a whole room full, Is beyond anything, I would attempt, For trying to make my self feel good, simply because Hurting people or their feelings does not do it for me, Iam sorry this works for you.

Love Omnaka

[LoneConformist]

Sorry to be late to this forum; I've never heard this theory but it makes sense.

One of Lucifer's mantras is to, as John Lennon says, "Relax, turn off your mind, and float downstream." It's not music itself that's to blame, but music that makes you weak-willed and easily influenced. The Pied Piper is the classic archetype of this. There's a great scene from the movie La Vie Nouvelle by Phillipe Grandieux where a Luciferian figure seduces a woman with thumping techno music, turning her into a catatonic rag doll in a sort of dance of death. You can see the clip on YouTube.

I wonder if anyone here knows of the series of seven operas by Stockhausen, Licht, or Light. They are symbolic dramas about the battle of the hero, the Archangel Michael, versus Lucifer. However Stockhausen himself continually equates Michael with Osiris, with "Kristos," with Hermes Trismegistus, in a pantheistic blending of religions that is pure Blavatskyism. Stockhausen's music is powerful like no other. But there's no question that if anyone on earth right now is the devil himself, it's old Karlheinz. These operas are clearly intended to be seductive brainwashing spectacles in the New Eden, the post-Christian millenium. Michael will probably be worshipped in the place of Christ in this kingdom, and I say that with greater sorrow than you know. Because while Michael's a great guy/angel, he ain't Christ -- just Christ's messenger.

As Paul admonishes us to do, I always weigh in the balance whatever I watch or listen to. And you'd be surprised which musicians pass my ultra-rigorous test of orthodoxy! For instance, there is no more Christian band on earth than Slayer. Read the lyrics and you will see clearly that they are only playing devil's advocate so as to reveal his methods, as well as the shallowness of all acts of defiance. Another great Christian band that isn't known for being a Christian band is Oasis. In fact, what people don't realize is that Oasis are the Christianized, de-paganized Beatles. There's a rap artist named Z-Ro that I admire greatly. He's not well-known but has an almost archangel-like ability to portray a lonely, two-timed, battle-scarred Christian on the hard road to heaven.

The truly Satanic musicians who fascinate me, besides Stockhausen, and discounting various New Agers, are

( 1 ) Bob Dylan, that great clouder of minds, who was exposed a bit too subtly in Martin Scorsese's recent documentary

( 2 ) Tupac Shakur with his phony millenial revelations

( 3 ) John Lennon, prophet of false peace

( 4 ) Hans Werner Henze, Marxist composer

( 5 ) Richard Wagner, not because he was anti-Semitic ( that's good! ) but because his Christianity was all about King Arthur and the Holy Grail and that Merovingian B.S.

( 6 ) Ludwig van Beethoven, sorry to say, a true figure of the "Enlightenment" in that his pathetic public struggle to believe in Jesus was somehow misconstrued as profundity ( also remember the Eroica was dedicated to the Satanic dwarf Napoleon )

( 7 ) Bela Bartok, the Dracula of music, who wasn't from Hungary by chance and who leads people to the pit of despair and meaninglessness

( 8 ) Elliott Smith and Kurt Cobain, two troubadors leading fragile souls to suicide, etc.

( 9 ) The aptly-named Donovan Leitch, whose songs are either about molesting young girls or about Lucifer, such as "Sunshine Superman" and

( 10 ) Gustav Mahler, who I believe honestly yearned for heaven but who, like Bob Dylan and many other two-faced Jews, confused the issue with lots of mixed-messages, for instance, moving from the Resurrection symphony straight into a nature-worshipping pagan symphony ( the 2nd and 3rd respectively. )

I could go on with this all day. Be careful out there! Unless your collection consists entirely of Monteverdi, Obrecht and Bach, there are lots of landmines to be avoided.

[ROGUE_HUNTER]

It is also said that Lucifer was the most beautiful angel of all. What I Don't understand is the relationship between Lucifer,Satan and the Devil. Are they the same entity(Demons) by different names or are they seperate entities. In Revelation 12:9 and revelation 20:2 the bible talks about the dragon, Satan and the Devil, that was defeated and bound for a 1000 years.

[draconic chronicler]

It is also said that Lucifer was the most beautiful angel of all. What I Don't understand is the relationship between Lucifer,Satan and the Devil. Are they the same entity(Demons) by different names or are they seperate entities. In Revelation 12:9 and revelation 20:2 the bible talks about the dragon, Satan and the Devil, that was defeated and bound for a 1000 years.

No they are not the same. Lucifer is a Christian invention some 400 years after Jesus walked the earth. Jesus never mentions Lucifer, becasue he wasn't invented by the Christian Chruch yet.

The Jews do not believe in Lucifer because they understand Hebrew and realize it is a Christian mistranslation of passages about the Prince of Tyre and King of Babylon.

In the Old Testament, Satan is the obedient servant of Yahweh and not connected with the Garden of Eden - another Christian invention.

The dragon who is bound by the angel and cast into the abyss for 1000 years is copied from Persian Zoroastrian mythology, only here the dragon is named Ahriman. John just changed his name and hoped none of his readers knew anything about Zoroastrianism, and catch his obvious plagiarism. Apparently nobody did. After 2000 years most Christians still haven't figured the deception out.

But the real, Biblical Satan may very well be a dragon, for this is what the word Seraphim actually means in Hebrew, a fiery flying serpent, and according to both Isaiah and Pslams, the Seraphim/dragons do sing praises to God. But this has nothing to do with the description of the Prince of Tyre who was mistranslated into the imaginary Lucifer by the Catholic Church.

[Moondoggy]

The context in question regarding the king of tyre indicates a heavenly being is being discussed. This is not at all rare as it is seen again in Daniel 10:7-13. Ephesian 2:2 and 2 Cor. 4:4. The concept of fallen angels ruling over geographical area and thusly given those titles is in Hebrew angelology and was not derived by Christians as the nitwit would have you to believe.

[draconic chronicler]

The context in question regarding the king of tyre indicates a heavenly being is being discussed. This is not at all rare as it is seen again in Daniel 10:7-13. Ephesian 2:2 and 2 Cor. 4:4. The concept of fallen angels ruling over geographical area and thusly given those titles is in Hebrew angelology and was not derived by Christians as the nitwit would have you to believe.

I believe that is a misunderstanding of the verse in Deuteronomy that Stated the Sons of Elohim were all alloted populations of humans to look after, and Yahweh (who it not Elohim) was the "Son of Elohim" that watched of the Hebrews.) This idea stems from the Sumerian origins of Hebrew theology in which each of the "great dragons" controlled a Sumerian city state. Anu is the same creator entity as Elohim, while the various Umshagal (great dragons of heaven), each had a city-state. Enki, who created the garden of Eden controlled the City of Eridu. Enlil, the storm dragon who flooded the world would become the patron God of the Hebrews, renamed Yahewh, and he and Elohim would evntually be melded into the same God, though in the earliest books it is clear they are different entities. Later translations would imply that the Sons of Elohim/Umshagall that looked after the other human population were demons and only Yahweh was authentic but this is clearly not the case in the earliest books. We find in the dead sea scrolls the earliest version which tells the truth, that Yahweh was one of many Umshagal all subservient to Elohim the creator. This may be why Jesus stated the Jews of his time were not worshipping God, indicating Jesus knew the difference between elohim, and the dragons servants enlil and enki who would become Yahweh and Satan.

Someone ought to ban you Moondog if you insist on calling people names here.

[Moondoggy]

I believe that is a misunderstanding of the verse in Deuteronomy that Stated the Sons of Elohim were all alloted populations of humans to look after, and Yahweh (who it not Elohim) was the "Son of Elohim" that watched of the Hebrews.) This idea stems from the Sumerian origins of Hebrew theology in which each of the "great dragons" controlled a Sumerian city state. Anu is the same creator entity as Elohim, while the various Umshagal (great dragons of heaven), each had a city-state. Enki, who created the garden of Eden controlled the City of Eridu. Enlil, the storm dragon who flooded the world would become the patron God of the Hebrews, renamed Yahewh, and he and Elohim would evntually be melded into the same God, though in the earliest books it is clear they are different entities. Later translations would imply that the Sons of Elohim/Umshagall that looked after the other human population were demons and only Yahweh was authentic but this is clearly not the case in the earliest books. We find in the dead sea scrolls the earliest version which tells the truth, that Yahweh was one of many Umshagal all subservient to Elohim the creator. This may be why Jesus stated the Jews of his time were not worshipping God, indicating Jesus knew the difference between elohim, and the dragons servants enlil and enki who would become Yahweh and Satan.

Someone ought to ban you Moondog if you insist on calling people names here.

Calling who names? The term nitwit simply to not know. I addressed this to no one. If someone does not know something then the shoe may fit.

[draconic chronicler]

Calling who names? The term nitwit simply to not know. I addressed this to no one. If someone does not know something then the shoe may fit.

You were obviously referring to my post, and you have been singled out by moderators several times in the past for your childish name calling when you are unable to make your points in civil debate. You really don't know enough about any of this to discuss it intelligently, so you ought to just go away since you cannot behave like an adult.

[Moondoggy]

You were obviously referring to my post, and you have been singled out by moderators several times in the past for your childish name calling when you are unable to make your points in civil debate. You really don't know enough about any of this to discuss it intelligently, so you ought to just go away since you cannot behave like an adult.

The ONLY reason you want me to go away is because I am the only one who can totally debunk your Dragon fetish with sound and unbiased research. Let's start over shall we? I challenge you to prove from a "Hebrew" text of your chosing to show where "Saraph" is translated "Dragon". You cannot do it without relying on a bogus Greek-Pagan influenced Mss. Me being singled out by the Mod Squad? Funny how many people call you down on your arrogance. You are like a politician and never address direct questions. Your book will flop when the language department at TAU gets a chance to read it. I cannot wait!!!

[draconic chronicler]

The ONLY reason you want me to go away is because I am the only one who can totally debunk your Dragon fetish with sound and unbiased research. Let's start over shall we? I challenge you to prove from a "Hebrew" text of your chosing to show where "Saraph" is translated "Dragon". You cannot do it without relying on a bogus Greek-Pagan influenced Mss. Me being singled out by the Mod Squad? Funny how many people call you down on your arrogance. You are like a politician and never address direct questions. Your book will flop when the language department at TAU gets a chance to read it. I cannot wait!!!

How about the scriptures translated into Greek that are among the Dead Sea Scrolls?. Here the Seraphim are translated to Drakones. Maybe you have heard of these. They are the oldest original source documents of the Bible as well as other ancient Jewish Texts. If you want to call them heavenly giant snakes instead of dragons, that is your right, since the Greek word describes any large reptile but the Biblical ones have wings and hands and feet so dragon is probably a better description.In previous discussions I have shown that the Jewish Enclylopedia, a dozen other respectable encylcopedias and dictionaries, and even the modern Israeli Defense forces, all acknowledge the Seraphim to mean fiery flying serpents in Hebrew. There is even an ancient Egyptian winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph to remove all doubt. The oldest of all surviving Jewish scriptures prove I am correct. Your modern, Christian concordances written by Sunday School teachers who are amateurs in the Hebrew language, and who edited out anything that violates their Christian sensibilities (like heavenly dragons) are absolutely worthless. The Hebrew Scholars that wrote the Jewish encyclopedia know far more about this than you, and evidently the Language Department at TAU if they actually agree with you, which I doubt. Why would all of the dictionaries and encylopedias, including the Jewish encyclopedia say the word means fiery flying serpents if it doesn't?

Edited May 28, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[Agent. Mulder]

ok, so this went from 'was satan the cheif musician in heaven?' to a debate about dragons? and whether or not a translated word means flying serpent?

this may have gone a little off topic.

[draconic chronicler]

ok, so this went from 'was satan the cheif musician in heaven?' to a debate about dragons? and whether or not a translated word means flying serpent?

this may have gone a little off topic.

Actually mulder, if you were more familiar with the Bible you would know that the only creatures that "sing" in that book are the Seraphim who sing praises to God in Isaiah, and the dragons and "Sons of God" who do in Pslams. And they are all the same thing, and Satan is one of these creatures. And since the accounts of Lucifer and his pipes has nothing to do with Satan, but the human prince of Tyre, this is the only evidence we have of Satan's musical talents.

So in fact, the "singing dragons" , and their altenate names of Seraphim and Sons of God, is a critical aspect of this discussion.

[Agent. Mulder]

Actually mulder, if you were more familiar with the Bible you would know that the only creatures that "sing" in that book are the Seraphim who sing praises to God in Isaiah, and the dragons and "Sons of God" who do in Pslams. And they are all the same thing, and Satan is one of these creatures. And since the accounts of Lucifer and his pipes has nothing to do with Satan, but the human prince of Tyre, this is the only evidence we have of Satan's musical talents.

So in fact, the "singing dragons" , and their altenate names of Seraphim and Sons of God, is a critical aspect of this discussion.

well you are correct, im not that familiar with the bible. seeing as its somewhat fictional (wait....k, that should mean id want to read it) and super long. but anyways, you two were arguing about dragons and whether or not a word translated into flying serpent. so i got confused by looking at the name of the thread here.....my bad i guess.

so this critical aspect of singing dragons relates to satan being the cheif musician because, he was one? im honestly lost, i should have never stepped out of crytpo/ufo forums lol

[Moondoggy]

I do my own research and do consult other "professionals" for a second opinion. 122 times the word "Saraph" is translated fiery or burning. The only reason the word "Seraphim" is applied is because we are now describing "fiery beings", not fiery dragons. According to accurate biblical usage the word has absolutely nothing to do with dragons. In fact I do not believe the word "Saraph" nor "Tannim" is ever used in conjuction biblically. Nice try DC, but your theory does not hold up against the Hebrew language.

[draconic chronicler]

I do my own research and do consult other "professionals" for a second opinion. 122 times the word "Saraph" is translated fiery or burning. The only reason the word "Seraphim" is applied is because we are now describing "fiery beings", not fiery dragons. According to accurate biblical usage the word has absolutely nothing to do with dragons. In fact I do not believe the word "Saraph" nor "Tannim" is ever used in conjuction biblically. Nice try DC, but your theory does not hold up against the Hebrew language.

Unfortunately guy, every major encyclopedia, including the JEWISH encylcopedia all say Seraphim means fiery flying serpents. So who shold we believe, you, or all of these enyclopedias, including a Jewish one written by fluent, expert Hebrew speakers. Give it up guy. I suspect the Hebrews actually borrowed this word from the Egyptians, and since the word meant a fire spewing serpent-dragon, the word came to mean anything else associated with fire as well.

This is a common idea. Many Human artifacts associated with fire (lanterns, candstick holders, fire place grates, cast iron stoves, etc. all have been decorated with dragons because dragons spew fire.

[hemet nesw weret]

Unfortunately guy, every major encyclopedia, including the JEWISH encylcopedia all say Seraphim means fiery flying serpents.

I suspect the Hebrews actually borrowed this word from the Egyptians, and since the word meant a fire spewing serpent-dragon, the word came to mean anything else associated with fire as well.

Ooooh what word would seraphim come from in ancient Egyptian?

[hemet nesw weret]

There is even an ancient Egyptian winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph to remove all doubt.

Mmmm, actually there isn't.

The closest I can find to 'seraph' is Serapis/Sarapis. This is a composite Kemetish/Hellenistic deity containing the personalities of osirus lord of the westerners and the bull-god apis in the form of Osorapis along with the principle aspects of the greek gods Zeus, Hades, Dionysos, Asklepios and Helios. First attested in the reign of Ptolemy I Soter, he was seen as a representation of the entire male pantheon of Alexandrian Egypt.

Serapis was often represented as the consort of Isis and the pair came to embody the natural forces of male and female fertility. In Alexandrian iconography the pair were shown as human headed cobras on door jambs, the bearded one being Serapis.

Again we turn up the greek influence.

Nowhere in Kemetish art does a dragon appear, serpents and cobras are common,(with and without wings) but you would have to be pushing a point pretty far to call them 'dragons'. The god Soker is much more dragon-like and even he is a crocodile.

[draconic chronicler]

Mmmm, actually there isn't.

The closest I can find to 'seraph' is Serapis/Sarapis. This is a composite Kemetish/Hellenistic deity containing the personalities of osirus lord of the westerners and the bull-god apis in the form of Osorapis along with the principle aspects of the greek gods Zeus, Hades, Dionysos, Asklepios and Helios. First attested in the reign of Ptolemy I Soter, he was seen as a representation of the entire male pantheon of Alexandrian Egypt.

Serapis was often represented as the consort of Isis and the pair came to embody the natural forces of male and female fertility. In Alexandrian iconography the pair were shown as human headed cobras on door jambs, the bearded one being Serapis.

Again we turn up the greek influence.

Nowhere in Kemetish art does a dragon appear, serpents and cobras are common,(with and without wings) but you would have to be pushing a point pretty far to call them 'dragons'. The god Soker is much more dragon-like and even he is a crocodile.

I can see that your knowledge in this is field is pretty basic and like most people you jump to the same false conclusion, but I assure you I am NOT referring to the Serapis bull. The Serrif is a magical serpent dragon of great power whose hymns are included in the famous pyramid texts that were the predecessor to the Book of the Dead, and much, much older than Ptolemaic Greek influence which I am sure you realize. It is actually much earlier than the exodus period which is why the idea that the Hebrews took this word from the Egyptians is highly probable, since the word meant the identical creature in both languages.. The hieroglyph of the Serrif looks like a quadrepel winged dragon, much like the mesopotamian mushushu dragons. Though rare, there is Egyptian art of winged crocodilian -dragonlike creatures which may be the serrif. Some people incorrectly refer to it as a gryphon, but this is becasue they have not read the pyramid texts that describe the Serrif as a fiery flying serpent, exactly as did the Hebrews.

This is all explained with the orignal egypitan artwork and hieroglyph in my book.

Edited May 29, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[hemet nesw weret]

I can see that your knowledge in this is field is pretty basic and like most people you jump to the same false conclusion, but I assure you I am NOT referring to the Serapis bull. The Serrif is a magical serpent dragon of great power whose hymns are included in the famous pyramid texts that were the predecessor to the Book of the Dead, and much, much older than Ptolemaic Greek influence which I am sure you realize. It is actually much earlier than the exodus period which is why the idea that the Hebrews took this word from the Egyptians is highly probable, since the word meant the identical creature in both languages.. The hieroglyph of the Serrif looks like a quadrepel winged dragon, much like the mesopotamian mushushu dragons. Though rare, there is Egyptian art of winged crocodilian -dragonlike creatures which may be the serrif. Some people incorrectly refer to it as a gryphon, but this is becasue they have not read the pyramid texts that describe the Serrif as a fiery flying serpent, exactly as did the Hebrews.

This is all explained with the orignal egypitan artwork and hieroglyph in my book.

My knowledge is far from basic, unless you judge nearly 20 years study in this field to be basic.

I have never jumped to a conclusion. I read the original sources myself wherever possible and go where the evidence leads.

You start at the answer YOU want, then work back DC, but unlike you I'm not pushing a book that may or may not get published. Just a tip with that - learn how to read Kemetish yourself before using 'egyptian' evidence' in said book. Too many of the old translations are weighted towards a edwardian style biblical agenda and have since been translated correctly.

Serapis is NOT a bull any more than he is a solar disc or mumiform king. You are thinking of APIS, who is only a tiny aspect of Osoirapis, who himself is a tiny part of Serapis.

Just because something looks like a 'mushushu' does not mean it's a dragon.

I've got a copy of the text found in Pepi I's pyramid at Saqqara. The texts are spells and instructions not hymns. The contents include the 'opening of the mouth'and protection utterences along with a symbolic journey of the tomb owner through the trials of the underworld. No dragons ....plenty of sphinx tho'.

Whether or not the Hebrews took a word from the Kemet or not is by the by anyway, it could just as easily be Mesopotamian or Babylonian.

This is all semantics and has nothing to do with the OP. I will leave you to your petty squabbling.

Maybe you should start your own thread on this and leave this one to get back OT.

Edited May 30, 2007 by meritaten

[draconic chronicler]

My knowledge is far from basic, unless you judge nearly 20 years study in this field to be basic.

I have never jumped to a conclusion. I read the original sources myself wherever possible and go where the evidence leads.

You start at the answer YOU want, then work back DC, but unlike you I'm not pushing a book that may or may not get published. Just a tip with that - learn how to read Kemetish yourself before using 'egyptian' evidence' in said book. Too many of the old translations are weighted towards a edwardian style biblical agenda and have since been translated correctly.

Serapis is NOT a bull any more than he is a solar disc or mumiform king. You are thinking of APIS, who is only a tiny aspect of Osoirapis, who himself is a tiny part of Serapis.

Just because something looks like a 'mushushu' does not mean it's a dragon.

I've got a copy of the text found in Pepi I's pyramid at Saqqara. The texts are spells and instructions not hymns. The contents include the 'opening of the mouth'and protection utterences along with a symbolic journey of the tomb owner through the trials of the underworld. No dragons ....plenty of sphinx tho'.

Whether or not the Hebrews took a word from the Kemet or not is by the by anyway, it could just as easily be Mesopotamian or Babylonian.

This is all semantics and has nothing to do with the OP. I will leave you to your petty squabbling.

Maybe you should start your own thread on this and leave this one to get back OT.

Serapis is also connected to the Apis bull as the Encyclpedia Britanica article confirms. You were the one who confused the Seraphim with Serapis, not me.

Serapis

(West Asian mythology)

The state god of Ptolemaic Egypt, the period of Macedonian rule (305–30 BC). Portrayed as a man with curly hair and beard, wearing a basket upon his head. Derived from the cult of the Apis Bull at Memphis, the main centre of Serapis worship was Alexandria, a centre of learning and commerce under the Ptolemies. The Serapeum there, accounted one of the wonders of the world, drew pilgrims from far and wide seeking miraculous cures. Serapis was primarily a healer of the sick, a deity who was superior to fate and who retained from Osiris the character of a god of the underworld. He had enormous influence among the Romans until his cult was overshadowed by that of the goddess Isis. Finally, the pious emperor Theodosius I (379–95) congratulated the Christians of Alexandria on their destruction of the Serapeum at the instigation of the patriarch Theophilus.

Like I said before, you seem to know very little about Egyptian mythology beyond the very mainstream, grade school stuff. Here is some material relating to the Seraph serpent dragon of ancient Egypt that you were evidently unaware of:

From an essay by John Goertzman. You should know who Archibald Sayce is.

"Saraph JrW may be related to the cuneiform word for a "serpent;" siru. Archibald H. Sayce says that the Egyptian word seref means "flying serpent." An Egyptian origin for the word appears plausible since there is archaeological evidence and ancient accounts of the presence of flying reptiles there. Since the Israelites had lived there for many years, it is not surprising that they adopted the Egyptian name for them."

Currid says that the Egyptians revered the serpent for both the danger and protection it represented. An Egyptian coronation hymn, found in a Pyramid text, reads:

The doors of the horizon are opened, their bolts are slipped.

He (the king) comes to thee, O Red Crown; he comes to thee, O Fiery One (saraph).

and another hymn:

O Red Crown, O Inu, O Great One,

O Magician, O Fiery Snake! (saraph)

Let there be terror of me like the terror of thee.

Let there be fear of me like the fear of thee.

Let there be awe of me like the awe of thee.

As you can see, real Egyptologists consider these to be hymns, though I agree that many of the Pyramid texts are spells.

Any good book on Egyptian hieroglyphs mentions and illustrate the Serrif, a fiery flying serpent-dragon with four feet, wings, tail much like the Mushushu dragons. Some sources incorrectly call it a gryphon, becasue they are unaware of these hymns where it is clearly identified as a flying reptile, exactly as the Hebrew Seraph. This can hardly be a coincidence.

Oh, and if you get my book you will get to see original ancient Egyptian art of WINGED crocodile dragons, that may be the Seraph. If you ever visit Egypt you will see a lot more than what is in the mainstream books.

Care to tell me I am "mistaken" again?

Edited May 31, 2007 by draconic chronicler

[The Gremlin]

as far as i know about this off topic stuff: nehebkau usually is depicted as a serpent, sometimes winged, sometimes with legs......doesnt look like a mushushu though.

also the israeli apache helicopter is called saraph....but its not its only name...

Boeing AH-64 ApacheHebrew nickname: 'Peten' ('Adder'), 'Saraph'

this seems to indicate a link to fiery serpent in the sense of 'poisonous snake' rather than mushushu. fierce poisonous snake motifs are often adopted for strike aircraft.

here are some pics of them, cant see any dragon insignia tho...

this is not to say that none of the saraph helicopters have a saraph or peten pictured on them though...perhaps you could prove a point dc by posting a pic.

as far as i can see here there is no reason to link these 'copters with mushushu, or quadrapedal dragons.

***

back on topic, satan is depicted in many ways, from satyr-like to dragon and also inbetween, serpent, black dog, beautiful angel...he is said to choose to appear in any form he wishes. Since he doesnt really exist his appearance is entirely subjective, and reflects more upon the observer. Some see him as a king, a man in a suit, a hobgoblin, a great dragon.

there are many pics online.

Edit: sorry wrong topic.. lol, they all seem to turn into dragon ones....anyway back on topic (the right one this time)

ya satan was chief musician in heaven, he played lead guitar, he got kicked out of the band because his lead breaks were always too long and self indulgent.

Edited May 31, 2007 by lil gremlin

[Moondoggy]

It aint easy playing a fender strat with hooves.

[draconic chronicler]

as far as i know about this off topic stuff: nehebkau usually is depicted as a serpent, sometimes winged, sometimes with legs......doesnt look like a mushushu though.

also the israeli apache helicopter is called saraph....but its not its only name...

Boeing AH-64 ApacheHebrew nickname: 'Peten' ('Adder'), 'Saraph'

this seems to indicate a link to fiery serpent in the sense of 'poisonous snake' rather than mushushu. fierce poisonous snake motifs are often adopted for strike aircraft.

here are some pics of them, cant see any dragon insignia tho...

this is not to say that none of the saraph helicopters have a saraph or peten pictured on them though...perhaps you could prove a point dc by posting a pic.

as far as i can see here there is no reason to link these 'copters with mushushu, or quadrapedal dragons.

***

back on topic, satan is depicted in many ways, from satyr-like to dragon and also inbetween, serpent, black dog, beautiful angel...he is said to choose to appear in any form he wishes. Since he doesnt really exist his appearance is entirely subjective, and reflects more upon the observer. Some see him as a king, a man in a suit, a hobgoblin, a great dragon.

there are many pics online.

Edit: sorry wrong topic.. lol, they all seem to turn into dragon ones....anyway back on topic (the right one this time)

ya satan was chief musician in heaven, he played lead guitar, he got kicked out of the band because his lead breaks were always too long and self indulgent.

Yes wrong topic, and no one yet has provided any evidence of Satan being depicted as anything but a serpent or dragons in ancient times. I saw the winged serpent dragon insignia on a decal sheet for models of the Seraph attack helicopter. It may have been a specfic squadron. It is common knowledgte in Israel that the Seraph is the Biblicalv Fiery Flying Serpent. You need not go any further than the Jewish Encyclopedia to prove this.

I suppose modern people can imagine Satan as a Hellenistic Satyr, but this has absolutely nothing to do with ancient Christian theology, it was simply a Renaissance artistic convention to make Satan seem more human than a snake or dragon. But this is no dfferent than atheists depicting God as the flying spagetti monster.

The "guy in the suit" Satan became very popular with low budget shows like the Twilight Zone. But the people closest to the times of Jesus ONLY depicted Satan as a serpent or a dragon. That's just the way it is.

[Adcox]

My knowledge is far from basic, unless you judge nearly 20 years study in this field to be basic.

I have never jumped to a conclusion. I read the original sources myself wherever possible and go where the evidence leads.

You start at the answer YOU want, then work back DC, but unlike you I'm not pushing a book that may or may not get published. Just a tip with that - learn how to read Kemetish yourself before using 'egyptian' evidence' in said book. Too many of the old translations are weighted towards a edwardian style biblical agenda and have since been translated correctly.

Serapis is NOT a bull any more than he is a solar disc or mumiform king. You are thinking of APIS, who is only a tiny aspect of Osoirapis, who himself is a tiny part of Serapis.

Just because something looks like a 'mushushu' does not mean it's a dragon.

I've got a copy of the text found in Pepi I's pyramid at Saqqara. The texts are spells and instructions not hymns. The contents include the 'opening of the mouth'and protection utterences along with a symbolic journey of the tomb owner through the trials of the underworld. No dragons ....plenty of sphinx tho'.

Whether or not the Hebrews took a word from the Kemet or not is by the by anyway, it could just as easily be Mesopotamian or Babylonian.

This is all semantics and has nothing to do with the OP. I will leave you to your petty squabbling.

Maybe you should start your own thread on this and leave this one to get back OT.

Don't worry abut this draaconic guy in every topic he's in he always has to be right

[hemet nesw weret]

Don't worry abut this draaconic guy in every topic he's in he always has to be right

It looks like it doesn't it?

DC, I already told you . I'm NOT going to hijack this thread any longer, so if you want to discuss this START A NEW THREAD.

Oh and a transliteration of the hieroglyphs would be better than a translation - that way I can read the plain prose, NOT someone else's interpretation. Thanks.

You could try reading these too; FAULKNER, R.O. 'The ancient Egyptian pyramid texts',(Oxford,1969)

ALLEN, J.P. 'The Pyramid Texts of Queens Ipwt and Wdbt-m. (i)',JARCE23(1986), 1-25.

Oldies but goodies!

Back to the topic.

@Moondoggy, I think you'll find it's a Dean Dimebag Satan plays now.( and he looks suspiciously like Dave Grohl.)

Edited May 31, 2007 by hemet nesw weret