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__Kratos__

No safe way for U.S. to leave Iraq,

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__Kratos__

(CNN) -- Pulling U.S. forces from Iraq could trigger catastrophe, CNN analysts and other observers warn, affecting not just Iraq but its neighbors in the Middle East, with far-reaching global implications.

Sectarian violence could erupt on a scale never seen before in Iraq if coalition troops leave before Iraq's security forces are ready. Supporters of al Qaeda could develop an international hub of terror from which to threaten the West. And the likely civil war could draw countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran into a broader conflict.

More of the article here...

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Not many people seem to care what the problems are in Iraq now.

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Bob26003

Your right Kratos. Seems to me that people don't really care about the consequences.

But can you blame them.....

I mean most people believe we were misled into this War and that it is a waste.

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__Kratos__
Your right Kratos. Seems to me that people don't really care about the consequences.

But can you blame them.....

I mean most people believe we were misled into this War and that it is a waste.

Misled then... That alone doesn't fix the mess we as a country made. It doesn't matter anymore that we were misled on WMD and terrorist links really. You just can't go into a country, blow it to hell, change it's entire government, make promises, take charge of security and training and then a few years later say "Opps, sorry... Bye." There are also more problems in Iraq now then before we invaded... One of them being Al Qaeda. Break you buy... Somewhat... Only in this case... Break you fix. It's our responsibility as a country.

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Aztec Warrior

The liberal main stream media has done an outstanding job in duping the public into thinking it's George Bush's War or it's a civil war................and completely neglected the fact that a majority of the violence and terror is committed by non-Iraqis. Al Qaeda knows if it can sway public opinion they will win. They probably will with the idiotic liberals in charge.

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Bob26003
Misled then... That alone doesn't fix the mess we as a country made. It doesn't matter anymore that we were misled on WMD and terrorist links really. You just can't go into a country, blow it to hell, change it's entire government, make promises, take charge of security and training and then a few years later say "Opps, sorry... Bye." There are also more problems in Iraq now then before we invaded... One of them being Al Qaeda. Break you buy... Somewhat... Only in this case... Break you fix. It's our responsibility as a country.

Exactly, there ARE more problems now. That is precisely why everyone is against the War. 80% of the reconstruction money has been spent, and don't quote me here but I believe 60-70% of Iraqis dont have access to clean drinking water. Electricity is below Prewar levels, and down from what it was last year even.

The vast majority of Iraqis want us to leave and say they would be safer with us gone.

By staying we are going against the will of the Iraqi people and the American people.

I think people see this as a bottomless hole............ Only the Iraqis can fix their country. They have the resources and the manpower, but not the will. They do not want Iraq to look how we want Iraq to look.

This has got to end IMHO. It is a bottomless pit........ The longer we stay, the bigger the insurgency gets.

We have been there long enough. We have failed........... Period

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Ghost Ship

Before the U.S. was even in Irag the Middle East was a brewing cauldron of trouble. That's they way it is and thats the way it's going to be for a long while yet. The U.S. going into Irag was like the U.S.S. Enterprise breaking the Prime Directive Rule. Peace is there own choice and there having so much fun blowing things up over there that it has just become pathetic and to top that off U.S soldiers are losing there lives because of it, and also the lives of innocent Iraqies. I coudn't imagine being an ordinary civilian living in Iraq. Never knowing where and when the next suicide bomber is going to blow up something. That wall they built was a big mistake it seems and it's becoming clear that for the U.S to have gone into Iraq has caused more trouble and little good if any will come of it excpet for them to leave. But they will leave Iraq for the worse when they do.

My final thought on this is that the U.S. or not the Middle -East is just plain nuts over violence. :gun:

Take away there guns and other weapons and leave them with sticks and stones only. (impossible i know)Enough of the suicide bombers already.

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Bob26003
The liberal main stream media has done an outstanding job in duping the public into thinking it's George Bush's War or it's a civil war................and completely neglected the fact that a majority of the violence and terror is committed by non-Iraqis. Al Qaeda knows if it can sway public opinion they will win. They probably will with the idiotic liberals in charge.

the majority of violence is committed by non-iraqis? I think that is another right wing lie. And has pretty much been discredited.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issue...28fallacies.htm

. Foreign fighters, especially jihadis, are fueling the violence. This was largely discredited but is making a comeback as Washington's search for scapegoats intensifies. By most estimates, including the Pentagon's, foreign fighters make up a small fraction of violent actors in Iraq -- perhaps 10 percent overall. (This is based on identifying people arrested as fighters.) Some of the more spectacular attacks have been carried out by al Qaeda or its imitators, but overall the violence is due to three forces: U.S. military, Iraqi Sunni Arab insurgents, and Shia militia, with minor parts played by Kurdish peshmerga in Kirkuk and the foreign bad boys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_insurgen...eign_insurgents

While it is not known how many of those resisting the U.S. occupation in Iraq are from outside the country, it is generally agreed that foreign fighters make up a very small percentage of the insurgency. Major General Joseph Taluto, head of the 42nd Infantry Division, said that "99.9 per cent" of captured insurgents are Iraqi.[20] The estimate has been confirmed by the Pentagon's own figures; in one analysis of over 1000 insurgents captured in Fallujah, only 15 were non-Iraqi.[4] According to the Daily Telegraph, information from military commanders engaging in battles around Ramadi exposed the fact that out of 1300 suspected insurgents arrested in five months of 2005, none were non-Iraqi, although Colonel John Gronski stated that foreigners provided money and logistical support: "The foreign fighters are staying north of the [Euphrates] river, training and advising, like the Soviets were doing in Vietnam"[5] In September 2006, the Christian Science Monitor reported, "It's true that foreign fighters are in Iraq, such as the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. But they are a small minority of the insurgent force, say administration critics. Most Iraqi mujahideen are Sunnis who fear their interests will be ignored under Iraq's Shia-dominated government. They are fighting for concrete, local political goals - not the destruction of America." The paper quoted University of Michigan history professor Juan Cole: "If the Iraqi Sunni nationalists could take over their own territory, they would not put up with the few hundred foreign volunteers blowing things up, and would send them away or slit their throats."[21]

Despite the low numbers of foreign fighters their presence has been confirmed in several ways and coalition forces believe the majority of suicide bombings are believed to be carried out by non-Iraqi foreigners. Kenneth Katzman, a Middle East expert with the Congressional Research Service, stated in June 2005: "I still think 80 percent of the insurgency, the day to day activity, is Iraqi - the roadside bombings, mortars, direct weapons fire, rifle fire, automatic weapons fire...[but] the foreign fighters attract the headlines with the suicide bombings, no question."[6][7]

Edited by Bob26003

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Cinders

You know.. whether we leave TOMORROW, or leave in 25 or 50 years -- the RESULT is going to be the same: HELL

Bush just can't except that our troops HAVE accomplished the MISSIONS- M I S S I O N S that BUSH has told them to do ... ie: Take out Iraq's Regime, verify no WMD's, rid of Sadam.. (he's long gone now!) We've stuck it out for this excuse or that excuse.. Jeeeez! Come on!

Bush fricked up! AND HE SHOULD ADMIT THAT and quit making up excuses and other reasons why we should stay there! He's just playing this as long as he can so HE can pass off this problem (and MORE DEATHS) to the NEXT PRESIDENT!!!

Progress my @ss! What a MISERABLE MISSION this man has plunged our country into! AND Bush is hurting his OWN sad p*** ant legacy. He's either very STUPID or just does not GIVE A D@MN!

Please listen to this video.. Olbermann sums it up pretty d@mn well.

Bush VETO MAY 1 2007

Edited by Cinders

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Ashigaru

I never get tired of the liberals "emotion over logic" policies.

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Lord Umbarger
Bush just can't except that our troops HAVE accomplished the MISSIONS- M I S S I O N S that BUSH has told them to do ... ie: Take out Iraq's Regime, verify no WMD's, rid of Sadam.. (he's long gone now!) We've stuck it out for this excuse or that excuse.. Jeeeez! Come on!
I kind of agree with asome of what you've got there. The "Mission" was accomplished. We defeated Saddams military in record time and overthrew his regime. That was the mission. That was the end of the "war". Now, we are left with a destablized nation that Iran is trying to fiddle with. Bushs fault? Maybe. Lack of forsight? Probably. Unfortunately, no one can predict the future course of events. Maybe we should have seen Irans influence coming. None the less, we did not.

Cutting and running as it's called is not the answer either. Firstly, it would give the relatively few insurgents a chance to say that they defeated the worlds last superpower. Encouragement pull other 9/11s. Simply declaring victory and running away will not suffice. That is what we did in Viet Nam and we all see how that turned out. The economy went all to hell as other countries began to see the U.S. as weak; as a nation that will not defend its allies. The Soviet Union began making plans to destabilize Afganistan. Most of the world started to think of the U.S. as a paper tiger.

Simply put, when it comes to "cut and run", we've been there. We saw the effects of it. It was an ugly place to be. Now, many on the left want us to revisit that time in American history.

To repeat the same actions over and over expecting a different outcome is a sign of insanity.

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EmpressStarXVII

So I guess it is safe to say no matter when we pull out, there will be 'dire' consequences.

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Lord Umbarger
no matter when we pull out, there will be 'dire' consequences.
I can't say that. What I do believe is that if we just up and leave, we will most certainly be making things worse. I believe that a gradual pull out is the better option. Region by region, as they become manageable, turn them over to the Iraqi government. Some areas are already under Iraqi authority. I think that this is the best of all outcomes. As an area becomes "quiet", let the Iraqis have it. If it suddenly gets out of hand, we will still have troops in country to come and assist. As time goes on, they will need us less and less. Eventually, taking care of their own problems will be more an issue of national pride.

Otherwise, we would basically be turning a chicken loose in a fox-pen. Few people would bet on the chicken.

Edited by Lord Umbarger

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AROCES
Exactly, there ARE more problems now. That is precisely why everyone is against the War. 80% of the reconstruction money has been spent, and don't quote me here but I believe 60-70% of Iraqis dont have access to clean drinking water. Electricity is below Prewar levels, and down from what it was last year even.

And how do you know how they were during the Saddam era, with all the embargoes and sanctions the UN imposed on Iraq?

The vast majority of Iraqis want us to leave and say they would be safer with us gone.

Yes, they want us to leave and so do we, when they think they can be secured enough against those who you are rooting for here.

By staying we are going against the will of the Iraqi people and the American people.

Then go to Iraq and lead a Mass protest that we leave now and let me see how many will join you.

I think people see this as a bottomless hole............ Only the Iraqis can fix their country. They have the resources and the manpower, but not the will. They do not want Iraq to look how we want Iraq to look.

YUP, so they are bombing those who voted for no way they want to give millions of Iraqis a different way of life.

This has got to end IMHO. It is a bottomless pit........ The longer we stay, the bigger the insurgency gets.

We have been there long enough. We have failed........... Period

Glum.... :cry:

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Bob26003

Nice try Aroces....... :lol:

Edited by Bob26003

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Bob26003

''''''''''''''''''''Simply put, when it comes to "cut and run", we've been there. We saw the effects of it. It was an ugly place to be. Now, many on the left want us to revisit that time in American history.

To repeat the same actions over and over expecting a different outcome is a sign of insanity.'''''''''''''''''''''

Umbarger, look at it like this: We HAVE seen the results of trying to fight a War of occupation that has no public support. We HAVE seen the results of trying to train an army to fight a localized insurgency. We HAVE seen the costs of staying in a bad situation way longer than we should have. We HAVE seen the cost of throwing blood and treasure down the drain. We HAVE seen the cost of trying to fight an immoral War.

Have we not learned?

I mean for God's sake, Vietnam tore this country apart. And not because we lost, because we did not need to be there. Because we were fighting a War that the Public knew was unnecessary and immoral.

You are right, doing the same thing over again is insane.

Luckily for us, ALOT of good things resulted from the Social upheaval that took place.

But we do not again need to be a Nation divided. The longer we stay, the more the insurgency will grow, the worse it will get, and the more the Public will be sick of it..........

For goodness sake, people allready want Bush's head on a pike. This War if it continues, WILL rip our Country apart even further.

It is bankrupting our Nation, Destroying our credibility, Destroying our morals, weakening our Military, and dividing the Country, and Ruining the lives of countless Iraqis, and American soldiers.

It is just not worth it.

If you care about America first , You will realize that their are problems at home ....... For every dollar we waste in Iraq, that is a dollar that could go into a School here at home. Or help pay for an old persons medications.

For God's sake, we could have eradicated homelessness and poverty in this country 10x over with the money being flushed down the toilet in Iraq.

Edited by Bob26003

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Mr Slayer

Before, it was Saddam (installed by Bush s.r.), now there are insurgents.

Whether they want it or not, the US have created a reason to linger in Iraq.

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Unlimited

Bush fulfilled his destiny of perpetual war for perpetual profits.....he made this mess ...all for a buck..people think he's incompetent. but his plan was to make this hellhole....and it worked...so the US is trapped forever.. and the coffers fill while the treasury goes bankrupt...he's no dummy he's a connecticut texan..

Edited by Unlimited

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BrucePrime
Before, it was Saddam (installed by Bush s.r.), now there are insurgents.

How did Bush Sr install Saddam Hussien? Hussien came to power during the 1968 coup, as Vice President under Ahmed Hassan al'Bakr. Even before the '68 coup, he was head of the Ba'ath party. He more or less ran the government until al'Bakr died in 1979, when he assumed formal power and title.

Bush was head of the CIA, yes; however, he director from 1976 to 1977.

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Unlimited
How did Bush Sr install Saddam Hussien? Hussien came to power during the 1968 coup, as Vice President under Ahmed Hassan al'Bakr. Even before the '68 coup, he was head of the Ba'ath party. He more or less ran the government until al'Bakr died in 1979, when he assumed formal power and title.

Bush was head of the CIA, yes; however, he director from 1976 to 1977.

saddam was a CIA operative built up by george sr and that class of CIA agents....I believe bush sr was a cia agent since the early 60s....what a great cover as ambassador to china...

Edited by Unlimited

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Anubi

So, your saying..in effect .. the usa is the greedy fay boy that discovered a mountain of cookies , no not discovered..went out of its way to obtain and to deliberately possess ..and still to this day disregards international law in the pursuit of this greed , a flagrant disregard for any kind of law ..in the pursuit of that cookie. we call it oil .. you would say a us government, in full backing of the people of the united states would go and do that, invade an innocent nation , and call it a war of democracy.. we'd do that ?

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Unlimited

would we?...we did....bush just instilled the people with fear, thru his lies and we fell for it....the congress fell for it..joe six pack fell for it..everyone did...well almost....

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Goblin-5
I agree that there is no way for the US to effectively pull out of Iraq. Best bet is to pead for some Arab League occupaton troops to take over the unwanted task of trying to stem secterian violence. The Iraq venture was an ill concieved and even more poorly executed operation ENTIRELY due to ploitical interference/ineptitude. The military (and some mikiia)is the only group which emerges from this debacle with any honour intact. Iraq is now a tar baby that Bush has attached to American foreign/domestic policy. Good thing the Dems will take over in the next electio. The blame for the ensuing holocaust when the troops are withdrawn will fall on them and not on the Republicans

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Unlimited
I agree that there is no way for the US to effectively pull out of Iraq. Best bet is to pead for some Arab League occupaton troops to take over the unwanted task of trying to stem secterian violence. The Iraq venture was an ill concieved and even more poorly executed operation ENTIRELY due to ploitical interference/ineptitude. The military (and some mikiia)is the only group which emerges from this debacle with any honour intact. Iraq is now a tar baby that Bush has attached to American foreign/domestic policy. Good thing the Dems will take over in the next electio. The blame for the ensuing holocaust when the troops are withdrawn will fall on them and not on the Republicans

thats why the dems want to end the war..I think everyones over dramatizing the situation if we pull out...we cause the chaos...if you just leave them alone they will take care of themselves...I keep hearing we will be fighting terrorists in the streets in the US if we fail....just more of that fear; they love to put forth...

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AROCES
saddam was a CIA operative built up by george sr and that class of CIA agents....I believe bush sr was a cia agent since the early 60s....what a great cover as ambassador to china...

Nope, we only took side of Iraq during the war with Iran, other than that we really have no business with him.

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Cinders
thats why the dems want to end the war..I think everyones over dramatizing the situation if we pull out...we cause the chaos...if you just leave them alone they will take care of themselves...I keep hearing we will be fighting terrorists in the streets in the US if we fail....just more of that fear; they love to put forth...

We'll probably hear more drear and fear in the Repubo's debate tonight.

It will air on MSNBC as well as a video stream of it here: http://www.politics.msnbc.com

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