spare the rod ..spoil the child

[MissMelsWell]

the mother was jsut not paying attention is it right is it wrong NO it jsut was what it was....And it was what it was that you preferrred not to parent for her... but you did , you looked out for the child that is what i noted .... Texas is a working mother and that for whatever reasons tryed to help the mom..........

Heather can correct me if I'm wrong here... NO, she didn't "help" the mother. She took that child back to the booth to keep the kid from being a DANGER to other customers, wait staff and itself. That's not a help to the mother, that's looking out for the wealfare of everyone ELSE.

Does everyone remember the story from a few months ago about the family that was booted from a flight out of Florida to Boston because the child was pitching a fit and the pilot booted them from the flight? How did you feel about those parents? Were you mad at the airline for not giving the mother extra time to calm her SCREAMING 4 year old down?

[+Sherapy]

Ok, while I was posting, I did see something that caught my eye!

That's right, you don't take a 3 year old into a situation they can't handle. That's correct.

BUT sometimes you're forced to take them into a situation that they can't deal with. What then?

miss wells you aren't gonna get me to say punishing is ever okay....all of my kids at thre could sit still for an hour ..if they couldn't of hubbyand i would of figured something out....

[+Sherapy]

Heather can correct me if I'm wrong here... NO, she didn't "help" the mother. She took that child back to the booth to keep the kid from being a DANGER to other customers, wait staff and itself. That's not a help to the mother, that's looking out for the wealfare of everyone ELSE.

Does everyone remember the story from a few months ago about the family that was booted from a flight out of Florida to Boston because the child was pitching a fit and the pilot booted them from the flight? How did you feel about those parents? Were you mad at the airline for not giving the mother extra time to calm her SCREAMING 4 year old down?

mw i said for whatever resons she tryed to help the mom, meaning whatever that meant to her...to watch out for the welfare of others or the kid is helping the mom whether overtly or not...LOL.....

[+Sherapy]

Lord this is the truth- I wouldn't NEVER allow mine in places If I knew they act like bunch of wild heathens. If I knew they could behave they go, if not they stayed home.

thanks sunni...

[texasgirlheather]

the mother was jsut not paying attention is it right is it wrong NO it jsut was what it was....And it was what it was that you preferrred not to parent for her... but you did , you looked out for the child that is what i noted .... Texas is a working mother and that for whatever reasons tryed to help the mom..........

heather certainly speak your truth loud and clear so there is no msitake what you mean, how ever that is be it word or deed but don't seek to impose your ideas of right and wrong on others. or tell then how to live...then you jsut become righteous and in righteous ness we can lose sight of our humanity ..this is the time when we have to show compassion as hard as it is.... ....i doubt this is what you want to t hear but its my truth...(((HUGS))))

I already know what I think is correct and incorrect here. She was the one imposing herself on others. There is nothing self-righteous about forming judgements where something is obviously wrong. I formed the judgement that the woman made many mistakes. It is apparent that that child is in for a load of trouble. LOL!!!!!! How far are you going to take the "You can't tell other people how to live" thing? I am not telling her what to do in her house, I am observing that there were some definite wrong things going on here, in this common public place where there were other people whom she was imposing her parenting on. The child could have been hurt, the mom was telling ME how to live because she was having an effect on my ability to concentrate on my job. She was telling the other customers how to live, because she did not stop the child from trying to literally jump into their laps while they were eating. I am not imposing anything, I am observing. If I had tried to impose my way of thinking on her, I would have said, "Ma'am, you do not know what you are doing. A,B, and C things here are wrong, you need to change." No, I didn't do that, I intercepted the child's behavior as my time allowed, and where it crossed over into disturbing other people, or where it was immediately, potentially harmful.

The child is capable of sitting long enough to eat a meal. The mother has not nurtured this habit with a regular routine. The mother could have walked around with her, or walked around the perimeter of the building with her if she were particularly cranky and restless. But the child wasn't. She was just bored, and perceived no limits in just getting up and exploring. The mom could have done it with her. The mom could have talked with her, played games, brought a book, asked me for a piece of paper. In fact, the kid had a coloring paper and crayons on the table in front of her, and all she did was throw them on the ground (also uncorrected), because walking around and tipping over the salt shakers and eating sugar out of the little packets was more immediately exciting.

[Radian]

Ok, while I was posting, I did see something that caught my eye!

That's right, you don't take a 3 year old into a situation they can't handle. That's correct.

BUT sometimes you're forced to take them into a situation that they can't deal with. What then?

(I do NOT like these parenting topics.. Theyre all so universally opinionated, and NO one can seem to agree on everything.... one of those skiddish subjects for me.)

Some kids are not as hyper as others.. some are just more well behaved.. If I had a brat and I was forced to take them somewhere and they were acting out, I would take them outside... or Remove them from the area.. I was fortunate enough not to have too much of a problem with mine, but I've seen others that were simply hellions.

[MissMelsWell]

Thank you Sheri, I tend to think I did a pretty good job considering the fact that I was a teen parent, married to a jerk, and had a lot going against me (of my own making).

My kid isn't perfect, in fact, just 10 minutes ago I was yelling at her to get 4 of my good crystal drinking glasses OUT of her bedroom along with half the silverware. She still hasn't brought them back to the kitchen and I'm about to have a aneurism over it. She does that because she's 19, and it seem to be an affliction 1/2 the 19 year old girls I know suffer from. (along with their entire wardrobe on their bedroom floor). So, if she doesn't get my good glasses out of her room in the next 10 minutes, I'm going to unplug her internet connection from the router which is in my bedroom. That'll get her moving. I like to call it incentive.

I"m particularly uptight tonight anyway... I am getting ready to catch a flight to Nevada in a few hours and want things in order before I leave.

[Michelle]

miss wells i have outlined my parenting and I'm gonna leave it at that...

parenting without punishing if that engages you explore it....... i live it and many others do to, shadow, myself , GW etc...you see what you want to see. ...

by the way i think you have done a fine job with your daughter and talk very kindly of you .......

Good Lord, the scary thing is that you are home schooling your children and don't even know how to use caps and punctuation. You can't answer a direct question and your spelling is atrocious.

Transparent=honest by the way.

[texasgirlheather]

It was not in any way a situation of, the child could not sit, like she had some kind of rare condition which exempted her from being able to sit. She had never learned the behavior, seemingly, she had no idea it was expected of her.

She was a child of good temperament, IOW she wasn't having a tantrum, this just seemed to be normal for her. The mother was completely nonplussed, and looked confused and uncomfortable when I advised her to keep the child at her table. I can not prove this is the case, but I got the feeling she had never asserted herself in any way around the child.

I want to know how your theory would have had you handle that, Sheri.

The child was not self-correcting, indeed did not seem to be aware that there was anything to correct.

The child was fully capable of sitting. I saw her do it for a moment when I first put them at the table.

The mother was capable of speech, movement and other basic functions, she could have taken other actions, like engaging the child in an activity, among other things.

There is something that I really want to know, which is how would your theory and practice have you handle this situation? If you don't want to talk about it,I don't understand why you started a parenting thread?!

We have discussed what is wrong, namely discipline and punishment, which seem to be the cause of all the world's ills. Oh wait, we're not supposed to say anything is ever really wrong. OK, confused about that now.

From a proactive standpoint, what is the right way to deal with this, I am trying to find out about your ways of teaching.

I also agree the child's needs schedule should be handled in a timely way, don't take kids who are in need of a nap, overly hungry, or just plain acting up, etc.... but that was not the case here, the kid was cheerful and good-natured while she went about doing her damage. It just serves as a distraction to mention that you shouldn't bring kids who can't act right, in relation to this incident. But it is a good topic on it's own. This child was just not tended to or interfered with in any way. She was not angry or sad. There were no "off" factors for this child... besides the fact that she appeared to be accustomed to roaming around unrestricted for as long as she wanted to.

I want to know how the child could have self-corrected. Please.

[+Sherapy]

It was not in any way a situation of, the child could not sit, like she had some kind of rare condition which exempted her from being able to sit. She had never learned the behavior, seemingly, she had no idea it was expected of her.

She was a child of good temperament, IOW she wasn't having a tantrum, this just seemed to be normal for her. The mother was completely nonplussed, and looked confused and uncomfortable when I advised her to keep the child at her table. I can not prove this is the case, but I got the feeling she had never asserted herself in any way around the child.

I want to know how your theory would have had you handle that, Sheri.

The child was not self-correcting, indeed did not seem to be aware that there was anything to correct.

The child was fully capable of sitting. I saw her do it for a moment when I first put them at the table.

The mother was capable of speech, movement and other basic functions, she could have taken other actions, like engaging the child in an activity, among other things.

There is something that I really want to know, which is how would your theory and practice have you handle this situation? If you don't want to talk about it,I don't understand why you started a parenting thread?!

We have discussed what is wrong, namely discipline and punishment, which seem to be the cause of all the world's ills. Oh wait, we're not supposed to say anything is ever really wrong. OK, confused about that now.

From a proactive standpoint, what is the right way to deal with this, I am trying to find out about your ways of teaching.

I also agree the child's needs schedule should be handled in a timely way, don't take kids who are in need of a nap, overly hungry, or just plain acting up, etc.... but that was not the case here, the kid was cheerful and good-natured while she went about doing her damage. It just serves as a distraction to mention that you shouldn't bring kids who can't act right, in relation to this incident. But it is a good topic on it's own. This child was just not tended to or interfered with in any way. She was not angry or sad. There were no "off" factors for this child... besides the fact that she appeared to be accustomed to roaming around unrestricted for as long as she wanted to.

I want to know how the child could have self-corrected. Please.

heather how could she of the child i never said she could of self corrected i said in the right circumstances the child could as early as two age appropriate of course...... not touchig an object after mommy has asked is a form of self correcting... the little one goes to it and says no no... you get the idea....

I have talked about my parenting alot i limit he personal storys is all...

your assessment that the mom was just not engaged seems fair... you are taking it further saying she was wrong and inconsiderate etc... that is no longer observation. its judgement....

a serious tone to the voice is all that is ever needed if the parent has done an effective job of parenting... from the start..

punishing doesn't correct the undesired behavior that is what i am saying .... teaching the behavior you want is correcting the behavior...

you had alot of good ideas on what could of taught the child and eventually the child would of used one of the methods they model what we teach.......

[+Sherapy]

(I do NOT like these parenting topics.. Theyre all so universally opinionated, and NO one can seem to agree on everything.... one of those skiddish subjects for me.)

Some kids are not as hyper as others.. some are just more well behaved.. If I had a brat and I was forced to take them somewhere and they were acting out, I would take them outside... or Remove them from the area.. I was fortunate enough not to have too much of a problem with mine, but I've seen others that were simply hellions.

thanks for stopping in Sunni and sharing ....I'm glad to hear that , i think the 'brats' are not as abundant as some would like us to believe ...

[+Sherapy]

Thank you Sheri, I tend to think I did a pretty good job considering the fact that I was a teen parent, married to a jerk, and had a lot going against me (of my own making).

My kid isn't perfect, in fact, just 10 minutes ago I was yelling at her to get 4 of my good crystal drinking glasses OUT of her bedroom along with half the silverware. She still hasn't brought them back to the kitchen and I'm about to have a aneurism over it. She does that because she's 19, and it seem to be an affliction 1/2 the 19 year old girls I know suffer from. (along with their entire wardrobe on their bedroom floor). So, if she doesn't get my good glasses out of her room in the next 10 minutes, I'm going to unplug her internet connection from the router which is in my bedroom. That'll get her moving. I like to call it incentive.

I"m particularly uptight tonight anyway... I am getting ready to catch a flight to Nevada in a few hours and want things in order before I leave.

have a safe flight MW...

[Radian]

I would think self correct COULD ALSO include giving the child something to do such a puzzle to stop the bad behavior. Or also (could) include taking them outside until the child "self corrects" (blows off steam/energy) and can be brought inside....

& wouldn't necessarily mean that the child disciplines itself-- I wouldn't think... I'm no expert in child psychology neither, so..

[+Sherapy]

I would think self correct COULD ALSO include giving the child something to do such a puzzle to stop the bad behavior. Or also (could) include taking them outside until the child "self corrects" (blows off steam/energy) and can be brought inside....

& wouldn't necessarily mean that the child disciplines itself-- I wouldn't think... I'm no expert in child psychology neither, so..

yep....

[MUM24/7]

Actually MUM, if I read right, this is your fifth... Woman YOU ARE A SUPERHERO. haha.

Yeah, no: 5 alright.....I definitely need nerves of steel that's for sure.......My mum thinks I'm a glutton for punishment.......

Dang woman i can remember the home stretch are you huge?? are you sleeping have you gotten the nesting urge yet and do you know what you are having???

Very big Sheri.....My babies are always 4 kg or over, my son was 4,910 grams, so I'm kinda worried how big this one will be..... Can't sleep and no nesting urge yet......The scan showed another girl but as long as it's healthy.......

5 weeks away WOW..i'll bet you can't wait...i recall when i had a few weeks left to go and i was yelling HURRY UP AND GET OUT OF ME LMAO

Good luck to you and please let us all know what you have had and how everything was

umm PM me 1st cuz im more important LMAO

oh ok then love

No worries sweetie.....I'll let everyone know all the gory details.....

[MUM24/7]

OK, I'm feeling left out... I wore some really tight pants that made my stomach hurt once... does that count?

[MUM24/7]

And BM, I am truly sorry for the pain that was caused you, it is not really adequate for me to say I wish it never happened, but I wish it hadn't. It is brave for you to open up here and all I can do is send you love and a hug, you went through some bad stuff but you have taken the highest possible number of positives out of I think. Good for you. You are always welcome to talk about it here, we are all supportive of you and have a great deal of affection and concern for you.

I second that Geri......

Heather has a lovely way of expressing her feelings so eloquently......

Edited May 4, 2007 by MUM24/7

[MUM24/7]

I want to hear your opinion on whether this was productive for the child, the mother, the other customers, or the other employees and myself. Was there any wrong or right here?

Thanks.

heather, I don't have any qualms about stating my thoughts in this scenario.....In my humble opinion, the mother was wrong in her attitude and behaviour....She showed indifference and total disregard for her child's behaviour and most importantly, safety......

Who was to prevent the toddler from accidentally bumping into a waiter and having hot food/drinks poured over her ? Who was to prevent her from venturing outside the restaurant and onto the busy road ? There are a numbers of things that could go wrong, as mums we're aware of the dangers constantly.....

As others have said, if your toddler can't handle being at a restaurant, don't bring her/him along.....The mother could have just as easily gone to a family fast food restaurant, where her girl can roam around freely in the enclosed kids' playground area.......

What next for this child ?? A trip to the local park or public swimming pool ?? Would her mother expect other mothers/adults to supervise her daughter ?? How ridiculous......heather, you come across as a very patient and polite person, if that was me I don't think I would have been able to hide my anger towards the mother......

[Beckys_Mom]

I'll hook you up right here. *fixes Geri a plate* Look here, you've got my special brisket, smoked in fresh, real mesquite in a real slow-smoker in my backyard (it is not possible for there to be any more authentic Texas-style brisket... my own marinade recipe, too, but I won't tell you what it is, you can't even get it out of me by tickling because I'm not ticklish *crosses fingers and hopes no one knows that was a lie* ), barracho beans, beer-battered onion rings, broccoli with my homemade cheese sauce. mmmmm.. and a mango tart. lol I love to cook for people.

*Yanks the wine list out of BM's hands* No, Miss, you drink Bud longnecks with this meal! Or Dos Equis is good, too.

Now put your feet up, you don't have to go anywhere or get anything for yourself.

But you do have to tell me it's good

WOW talk about excellent service at the --> Southern UM Eatery LMAO ...........umm the beer, I dont like beer miss...can I please have a west coast cooler instead, heavy on the rocks...that will do nicely...cheers

The food sounds wonderful...but ummm don't laugh, but what on earth is a brisket??? is brisket all what you just described, with the homemade cheese sauce ect??? do you call that brisket??

*scratches head*

Edited May 4, 2007 by Beckys_Mom

[InnerSpace]

IamsSon, the day you poop a 7.5lb football... let us know

OMG, my side is killing me from laughter. That's a classic MissMelsWell.

[Beckys_Mom]

I second that Geri......

Heather has a lovely way of expressing her feelings so eloquently......

Thanks MUM

[texasgirlheather]

heather how could she of the child i never said she could of self corrected i said in the right circumstances the child could as early as two age appropriate of course...... not touchig an object after mommy has asked is a form of self correcting... the little one goes to it and says no no... you get the idea....

So, if I may put it in heatherspeak to translate this in my brain, is it fair to say that: If the child had had limits laid down early on of acceptable vs. unacceptable, or permissible vs. not permissible behavior (what you might call beneficial vs. not beneficial? I don't know, just guessing), she could have integrated it, recognizing HERSELF what she may and may not do. It seems like you like the idea of the child being a participant in her correction, which I am all for, it is the optimum situation. But what if those conditions don't apply? What of especially disobedient children, or children who are going through an especially defiant, rebellious stage, whose goal is to be defiant, rather than to function for the good? Is there ever a time for you that the child must obey your limits?

If you don't want to give personal examples that's fine, I won't either, not from my own life.

What if she had been raised in everything you described but still didn't self-correct? Does it mean that the child has to agree with you that something needs to be corrected, before self-correcting? That assumes that the child and parent are of the same mind about what needs correcting. What if that were ever not the case, regardless of what was taught? What if the child had naturally, wholly different opinions than you about what is in need of correcting, if anything?

I'm not trying to antagonize you, but the only way for me to pin this down is to continue asking questions. For me, the more I exclude non-neccesary factors in a situation, the more I can stick my finger on the essence of the point. Thanks.

[texasgirlheather]

I second that Geri......

Heather has a lovely way of expressing her feelings so eloquently......

Thanks.

[Lotus Flower]

lotus you don't need to do any of it why is it that its assumed there is no other way?? my gosh there are so many alternatives..i agree with the new laws 100 percent and the no yelling also, i feel its about time , it doesn't work to harm our kids and call it teaching......for every two kids that is hit one is abused ... its serious and its putting violent adults in society.... on the sin thread there are some good storys of teaching kids by myself, shadow, ( she has wonderful suggestions) and miss wells....

No I am not assuming there is no other way. I am just saying that there are so many outsiders butting their noses into other people's business nowadays, that it is getting ridiculous.

My own daughters are now aged 20 and almost 18, those are the two that I said I had smacked five times between them up until the age of two. What I am asking is if we cannot discipline our own kids - not even by shouting, what do we do.

Someone else mentioned about a kiddie putting something in an electrical socket - that is so true. Granted you could calmly walk over take the child gently by the hands and give him/her an ice-cream. However, will that stop them trying again when you are not around, perhaps because you have popped to the loo for instance - by then they could be dead . You cannot reason with a small kiddie, they do not understand. I would never want one of my kids to be hurt and least of all simply because I had followed the "new guidelines for parenting".

I am glad I will never have any more children, I sympathise with anyone that will have one in the future - especially if the Guidelines are against the own parent's natural way - and I don't mean beating them or sticking them in a cupboard under the stairs which is full of spiders all night either.

Too many kids running riot lead to too many adults going wild and when that happens, we really WILL have problems. Discipline will lead to respect for the kiddie themselves and for others, that doesn't mean, however, it has to be like the Army lol.

By the way, I do not and would not take any advice from so called experts regarding bringing up my own kids as they are not the ones that were bringing up my children. If they were to carry on with their own parenting (presuming they actually have kids) and left everyone else alone, I figure many, many people would be a lot better off.

Even if I did have toddlers, I certainly would not want "new parenting guidelines" advice from such people, they are putting everyone into the same bracket and as we all know, life and people are simply not like that.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Lotus Flower

[texasgirlheather]

Heather can correct me if I'm wrong here... NO, she didn't "help" the mother. She took that child back to the booth to keep the kid from being a DANGER to other customers, wait staff and itself. That's not a help to the mother, that's looking out for the wealfare of everyone ELSE.

Does everyone remember the story from a few months ago about the family that was booted from a flight out of Florida to Boston because the child was pitching a fit and the pilot booted them from the flight? How did you feel about those parents? Were you mad at the airline for not giving the mother extra time to calm her SCREAMING 4 year old down?

In a way you and Sheri are both right, the mother received help from me, help is the actual value of what happened. However, it was not my intention, my intention was indeed to keep the child's behavior from interfering with everyone else's time. I only addressed it when it went outside of only affecting the mom, and crossed over into "bugging everyone else and kid being in potential danger" territory. In another situation I would have addressed it more aggresively, as in, "Mom, you really need to keep your child from climbing all over the place, I'm not going to tolerate it." But I had to balance my desire to be forthright with the fact that I was an employee and should only address the situation in the respect that it had an effect on the business. In my personal capacity, I still would have been polite, but would have nipped it in the bud sooner. I have no problem with visiting with kids from the table next to me, if I am eating out, I enjoy it and my kids do, too. Friendly visiting is not what I'm talking about.

I am not familiar with that story, so I can't comment on it. But there are too many people needing to get to places on time, and too many other flights that would have been made late and people missing connections, for anyone to postpone a flight to let a mom calm her kid down.