spare the rod ..spoil the child

[texasgirlheather]

WOW talk about excellent service at the --> Southern UM Eatery LMAO ...........umm the beer, I dont like beer miss...can I please have a west coast cooler instead, heavy on the rocks...that will do nicely...cheers

The food sounds wonderful...but ummm don't laugh, but what on earth is a brisket??? is brisket all what you just described, with the homemade cheese sauce ect??? do you call that brisket??

*scratches head*

Yeah, c'mon in anytime, bring your mama. Where I live there is a lovely intersection of deep-South soul food, with Mexican food. So you will always be pleased with new flavors. And it's always home-cooked, none of that opening a can nonsense.

LOL! I'm sorry I just assumed everyone knows what a brisket is. It's a cut of beef, like a big roast, and something wonderful happens when you put it in a slow smoker.

No beer, ok... Got you covered. A wine cooler it is then, I think peach or strawberry? A lovely selection, Madame. I will bring you some hot biscuits and jelly while you wait. Now here comes the entertainment....

*Heather sings a country song on the karaoke "You don't have to call me Darlin, Darlin....."*

Wait, don't leave!!!!!! Take your fingers out of your ears, I stopped.. Er... I'll have the manager comp your meal... Sorry about that. Hope you can still digest your food..

[IamsSon]

heather, you're a riot and a half, girl!

Edited May 4, 2007 by IamsSon

[Purplos]

a serious tone to the voice is all that is ever needed if the parent has done an effective job of parenting... from the start..

punishing doesn't correct the undesired behavior that is what i am saying .... teaching the behavior you want is correcting the behavior...

I completely agree with this, though I know nothing about psychology or child development.

All of these things take time, however, and repetition. You can't say "Sit down at the table in the restaraunt" one time and expect your 2 year old to remember it forever. Before all else, good or acceptable behavior - that which is expected by you - must be taught.

I have 2 boys, one autistic. The autistic one requires different and more repetitive teaching than the other. I have actually had people ask if I had ever tried smacking my autistic son to get him to behave. I was aghast. He simply does not have the capacity to understand the bounds of appropriate behavior without extensive guidance. A 'normal' child may have the capacity, but still could not understand his boundaries unless they were taught to him to begin with.

[+Sherapy]

I completely agree with this, though I know nothing about psychology or child development.

All of these things take time, however, and repetition. You can't say "Sit down at the table in the restaraunt" one time and expect your 2 year old to remember it forever. Before all else, good or acceptable behavior - that which is expected by you - must be taught.

I have 2 boys, one autistic. The autistic one requires different and more repetitive teaching than the other. I have actually had people ask if I had ever tried smacking my autistic son to get him to behave. I was aghast. He simply does not have the capacity to understand the bounds of appropriate behavior without extensive guidance. A 'normal' child may have the capacity, but still could not understand his boundaries unless they were taught to him to begin with.

Exactly it takes time and repetion especialy when they are young, and as a parent we have to be reasonable as to what they can or cannot do....sometimes alot is expected out of the little ones...I agree parenting is about teaching not punishing.....

probably the biggest reason i opted for home school amoungst many was the reward punishment system was in place in the system too to the point of absurdity,( including signing a paper giving permission to punish your child and a little class on what that meant) I made other arrangements ..... such as a child asks a question , he was put in the corner, or one dropped a pencil also sent to the corner........One time and it probably was the determining factor a little girl didn't understand the directives the teacher explained once to the little 6 year olds and put her in the corner and she stood there silently crying i felt awful also kids that are punished alot at school are aliented from there peers , kids learn real fast who to avoid so they aren't the ones getting punished.....

I had great issue with the corner thing and spoke to other parents about it and one mom said if my daughter acts up as in asks a question or giggles with a girlfriend the teacher can do what she wants...many equate punishment with responsibility.. either tow the mark or take a fall like a man or woman whatever the case be..many feel this is real life..IMO this is very exaggerated. and really jsut cretes subservience and enviorments that take advantage of the employee......One should never teach one to just deal with crappy bosses or horrible teachers and call it respect....

gosh i gasped too when i read that , hitting your son good grief...i have had autistic clients over the years, one very figity his mom is a saint, i have never seen a mom so patient and kind to him and he responds very well to her too he is more work with his Dad, but his dad doesn't have the patience the mom does, and the child feels it.... thankyou for sharing Purplos...

[Shadow_Hill]

a serious tone to the voice is all that is ever needed if the parent has done an effective job of parenting... from the start..

punishing doesn't correct the undesired behavior that is what i am saying .... teaching the behavior you want is correcting the behavior...

This is so true.

In fact, my mum didn't even need a tone... even when she didn't say a word she just had a look about her, and I knew I needed to give some consideration to something I'd just done or said.

My mum has always talked to me a lot, and explained things. She said she wanted to teach me how to teach myself.

[+Sherapy]

This is so true.

In fact, my mum didn't even need a tone... even when she didn't say a word she just had a look about her, and I knew I needed to give some consideration to something I'd just done or said.

My mum has always talked to me a lot, and explained things. She said she wanted to teach me how to teach myself.

I like that shadow, my kids always say that their parents tell them everything and it makes it easier for them or they can come to us with anything no question is off limits no curiousity is let unexplored... was this the same with your mom???

You know S.... often the parent has allowed some thing to get to a problem to begin with , as a parent it is imperative to not establish the unwanted behaviror to begin with this can apply to husbands to freinds etc..you teach others how to treat you ..by what we allow or dont' allow... yet none of this ever requires punishing of any kind.....I see parents ground their kids repeatedly over the same things (school is the biggie) and it never addresses the issue, never changes anything,what it does do is create a parent that is doing things like tough love and camps and fighting all the time...... ...this is standard in most homes...

why do parents use the same ineffective methods over and over .....,

[Shadow_Hill]

I like that shadow, my kids always say that their parents tell them everything and it makes it easier for them or they can come to us with anything no question is off limits no curiousity is let unexplored... was this the same with your mom???

Yes it was. My mum always said she would have felt she'd failed if I'd not felt able to speak to her about whatever was on my mind. I asked a lot of questions as a kid... I don't know how my poor mum's head didn't explode.

I see parents ground their kids repeatedly over the same things (school is the biggie) and it never addresses the issue, never changes anything,what it does do is create a parent that is doing things like tough love and camps and fighting all the time...... ...this is standard in most homes...

It's the same with school discipline. When did a detention ever encourage a child not to act up again? It's always the same kids staying back after class, for the same reasons... always the same ones outside the headmaster's office.

You hear parents shout at their kids "how many times have I told you not to do that?" followed by the smack around the back of their heads. When will the parents learn that an effective solution is one that works, and an ineffective one - even if you use it repeatedly for ten years - is never going to?

[+Sherapy]

No I am not assuming there is no other way. I am just saying that there are so many outsiders butting their noses into other people's business nowadays, that it is getting ridiculous.

My own daughters are now aged 20 and almost 18, those are the two that I said I had smacked five times between them up until the age of two. What I am asking is if we cannot discipline our own kids - not even by shouting, what do we do.

Someone else mentioned about a kiddie putting something in an electrical socket - that is so true. Granted you could calmly walk over take the child gently by the hands and give him/her an ice-cream. However, will that stop them trying again when you are not around, perhaps because you have popped to the loo for instance - by then they could be dead . You cannot reason with a small kiddie, they do not understand. I would never want one of my kids to be hurt and least of all simply because I had followed the "new guidelines for parenting".

I am glad I will never have any more children, I sympathise with anyone that will have one in the future - especially if the Guidelines are against the own parent's natural way - and I don't mean beating them or sticking them in a cupboard under the stairs which is full of spiders all night either.

Too many kids running riot lead to too many adults going wild and when that happens, we really WILL have problems. Discipline will lead to respect for the kiddie themselves and for others, that doesn't mean, however, it has to be like the Army lol.

By the way, I do not and would not take any advice from so called experts regarding bringing up my own kids as they are not the ones that were bringing up my children. If they were to carry on with their own parenting (presuming they actually have kids) and left everyone else alone, I figure many, many people would be a lot better off.

Even if I did have toddlers, I certainly would not want "new parenting guidelines" advice from such people, they are putting everyone into the same bracket and as we all know, life and people are simply not like that.

for the most part we have kids raising kids , few are ready to be parents in their 20's they haven't finished being parented themselves, truthfully one is ready to be a parent at 40 or 50 by then they have accrued some life experince...

actaully its a miracle so many get through childhood relatively unscathed as it is...Little effort is put into understading being a parent a person let alone how to understand child and this is fact.....so many fall back on what thier aprents did even though tey knnow deep down it doesn't work.....

how does one teach a small vulnerable child what it means to be human when they don't know themsleves????

and paretns know this so they attempt to fix it by teaching kids to deny their sexual essence which is the most unnatural thing to teach anyone.....this is not a plea for sexual promsicuity but the way humanity goes about protecting thier child is absurd and harmful and jsut adds to the problems.....IMO

[IamsSon]

Yes it was. My mum always said she would have felt she'd failed if I'd not felt able to speak to her about whatever was on my mind. I asked a lot of questions as a kid... I don't know how my poor mum's head didn't explode.

It's the same with school discipline. When did a detention ever encourage a child not to act up again? It's always the same kids staying back after class, for the same reasons... always the same ones outside the headmaster's office.

You hear parents shout at their kids "how many times have I told you not to do that?" followed by the smack around the back of their heads. When will the parents learn that an effective solution is one that works, and an ineffective one - even if you use it repeatedly for ten years - is never going to?

I think, in part this may be because these kids were never taught that it was WRONG to get detention. When I was growing up, I knew that if I ended up in detention or in the Principal's Office, I was going to be in HUGE trouble with my parents, so I made sure I behaved in the way my teachers expected and didn't do things that would land me in detention or the office. There was a HUGE element of shame attached to having to be disciplined at school. I saw it as a personal failure to act in a way that would require me to be disciplined, because that is what my parents taught me it was (shameful) so I didn't do it. I was able to see which actions got people in trouble and just avoided acting that way.

Kids who are constantly in detention I would wager, are also kids whose parents let them get away with whatever stupidities they do until the parent reaches a boiling point and then instead of disciplining their child they just beat them out of frustration. All these kids learn is that you can get away with stuff up and until mom or dad gets tired of it, they don't learn proper behavior, they learn that improper behavior is tolerated to a certain point... they learn to spend their time gauging how far they can push this activity or that behavior before they will get in trouble.

[MaiTino]

yes, things were very different 2000 years ago. there are influences on the bible from those times that i dont find relevant today. i will never spoit my children. i hate spoiled brats. they never appreciate anything, because theyve always had everything given to them as they see fit. they dont have the mental capacity to know whats good for them. im not saying they should do without, but you cant let your children boss you around.

Dont be so quick to judge. And please try not to hate spoilt brats, they cant choose their upbringing and things arnt always what they seem.

Someone else mentioned about a kiddie putting something in an electrical socket - that is so true. Granted you could calmly walk over take the child gently by the hands and give him/her an ice-cream. However, will that stop them trying again when you are not around, perhaps because you have popped to the loo for instance - by then they could be dead . You cannot reason with a small kiddie, they do not understand. I would never want one of my kids to be hurt and least of all simply because I had followed the "new guidelines for parenting".

A subjective experience

These memories are very clear indeed.

When i was about 3 (it was before i was aware of age, but i remember what i looked like, and i looked the same as i did in my 3rd birthday photos), my father took us (me, my brother, my sister) swimming every saturday, i went through this phase. I was fasinated with the plug socket and wanted to know what was inside the holes. Each time my dad drove us back from swimming, i would look at his work table in the garage when he parked the car and consider the uses of all his different tools, and pick out which one might be best to choose for my investigation with the plug socket. I eventually spotted the perfect screwdriver and waited until the right time to get it with out him watching to take on my private mission. I was not doing it secretly because i thought i was being bad, i was completely unaware, so there was no intention, i simply needed to find out what was in those holes.

The day i picked up the screwdriver we walked back to the house and my father went into the kitchen as usual and prepared our fish fingers and chips. I was in the hall kneeling down next to the plug socket as i did every weekend until this event while he was in the kitchen cooking. Finally i would get to further my investigation. I stuck the screwdriver in...

GDZZZZZZZZZ SPARKS FLEW EVERYWHERE.

My immediate reaction? i turned my head in terror and immediatly lept up dashed to the downstairs toilet and hid behind the door although i could hear the inevitable loud thuds coming towards me, there was no escape. The door swung open and this huge figure with big wide eyes and dark pupils and a red contorted face picked me up by the arm and proceded to thump me five times while i screamed and cried.

There were various words spoken that i was unable to understand or hear through my wails of fear and heartbreak. i was thrown to the floor and he walked away as if nothing had happened.

The conclusion of my plug socket investigation? well, i concluded that if you stick a screwdriver in a plug socket then lots of uncontrolable sparks come out which make a loud noise, which means that the holes must contain something that is not controlable unless contained (i wouldnt of been able to word it in this way back then, but it was a recognition)...

The thumping taught me nothing. The fact that as soon as it happened i instinctively dashed to hide means that i had already learnt to fear my father before even this event. I was aware that the thumping was connected to my investigation of the plug socket, but it did not teach me that my investigation was dangerous, it taught me that if i was caught investigating then my father would hurt me, but seeing as i conducted it in secret, i think i already knew this.

There has been much emphasis on the different situations that the parants might be in that effect the way they react to their child. There has been little describing the feelings of terror a child can feel when a being who is three times taller than they are storms at them with any sort of aggression. A child may act cheakily in response, but when they know that its going to happen anyway, what have they got to lose?

I firmly believe that all a child learns from physical punishment is to fear the source of it. I find it ironic that the one safe house we are supposed to have in this life, the family, could end up being a place where we do not feel safe at all.

I am completely against violence towards a child, and i think that no matter what stress we are under, the control of ones anger in every situation in life is a top priority. Children will not learn to control their anger if their parents can not control their own. We are amazing animals, all the incredible discoveries that we have made throughout the ages yet we are not even able to find ways of supporting and educating our children without force.

I believe in a mutual respect but i do not believe in authority. If i feel that a child disrespects me then i create a communicative situation which allows them to explore the consequences. This method takes more time and attention than a quick shocking slap, but hey, arnt they worth it?

NICE ONE!!

nn23

Edited May 4, 2007 by nn23

[+Sherapy]

Yes it was. My mum always said she would have felt she'd failed if I'd not felt able to speak to her about whatever was on my mind. I asked a lot of questions as a kid... I don't know how my poor mum's head didn't explode.

It's the same with school discipline. When did a detention ever encourage a child not to act up again? It's always the same kids staying back after class, for the same reasons... always the same ones outside the headmaster's office.

You hear parents shout at their kids "how many times have I told you not to do that?" followed by the smack around the back of their heads. When will the parents learn that an effective solution is one that works, and an ineffective one - even if you use it repeatedly for ten years - is never going to?

ah yes I often feel as if i am a question mark not a mom LOL....

many parents deter ther children from asking questions i notice this too or the child dosent' feel comfortable with the parent and their hangups..these are the things i hear from kids, befor the mud starts slinging ...Kids are far more aware then the parents rearing them...

i want my kids getting the lowdown on life from me not there ignorant( not knowing kind) peers based on what they have jigsawed togehter here and there.. my son shares alot of absurd things that kids think....most come from the parents ...such as babys come from storks i'm not kidding imagine how that opens the door for future communication... or if you don't do this the canydyman will come out of the bathroom mirror and take you, (gee does the parents jsut wnt the child to be on prozac ) ..these are actual storys.....

how about all the kids put on anti depresents to "behave"

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[+Sherapy]

I think, in part this may be because these kids were never taught that it was WRONG to get detention. When I was growing up, I knew that if I ended up in detention or in the Principal's Office, I was going to be in HUGE trouble with my parents, so I made sure I behaved in the way my teachers expected and didn't do things that would land me in detention or the office. There was a HUGE element of shame attached to having to be disciplined at school. I saw it as a personal failure to act in a way that would require me to be disciplined, because that is what my parents taught me it was (shameful) so I didn't do it. I was able to see which actions got people in trouble and just avoided acting that way.

Kids who are constantly in detention I would wager, are also kids whose parents let them get away with whatever stupidities they do until the parent reaches a boiling point and then instead of disciplining their child they just beat them out of frustration. All these kids learn is that you can get away with stuff up and until mom or dad gets tired of it, they don't learn proper behavior, they learn that improper behavior is tolerated to a certain point... they learn to spend their time gauging how far they can push this activity or that behavior before they will get in trouble.

son I'm not picking on you but you said you knew if you ended in 'detention' you would be in huge trouble at home....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the hair or starve us...... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i didnt' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened, i would have to lie because i was ashamed that we were so bad that we drove my parents to this....this is what we were told..........i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she would be on herion by the time she was 13....and dead by 26.

My granmother would jsut sit and hold me while i shook from a loud noise it took a few years to recover and if it wans't for my grandparents i would be dead now.....

as long as i live i will speak long and loud and hard on the effects of punsihment......

i can tell you exactly what punishing does to a child......

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[MaiTino]

son I'm not picking on you but you said you knew if you ended in 'detention' you would be in huge trouble at home....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the ahir... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i dint' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened.....i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she woudl be on herion bythe time she was 13.....

My granmother would jsut sit and hold me while i shook from a loud noise it took a few years to recover and if it wans't for my grandparents i would be dead now.....

i can tell you exactly waht punishing does to a child

Gosh Supra Sheri, i TOTALLY feel for you, i had similer experiences except just from my father because my mum was not around. mmm.

[+Sherapy]

Gosh Supra Sheri, i TOTALLY feel for you, i had similer experiences except just from my father because my mum was not around. mmm.

(((HUGS)))) My best freind had a similar exepricnce and killed herself in her adult hood... Few know what goes on behind closed doors.. in my day in the relgious communitys this was considered good parenting....

how have you fared if you don't mind sharing....

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

I believe in limited swats at an early age. Not full on spanking. After that, taking away of privelages or things seems to do the trick. I live in a high dollar area, and the majority of children or spoiled rotten. We are actually going to move because of it because of the influence on our 14 year old.

[Dark Arc]

Personally I was spanked many a time, and I have yet to do the same thing. Pain is the best motivation, and the best teacher. Heck my two year old cousin has seen his elder brothers paddled and when he gets out of line all we have to do is mention it and he stops instantly. Kids learn whats right and wrong, like you learn to walk through falling the pain reminds you that that isn't the right way so you try a new one and etc.

[MaiTino]

(((HUGS)))) My best freind had a similar exepricnce and killed herself in her adult hood... Few know what goes on behind closed doors.. in my day in the relgious communitys this was considered good parenting....

how have you fared if you don't mind sharing....

awww thanks *big squeeze back*

sorry, i did stick it in, but i got scared, yeah its been tough but i am doing well now

Edited May 4, 2007 by nn23

[eqgumby]

So many experts here. Nice.

This topic, at this point, has nothing to do with Christianity.

[texasgirlheather]

son I'm not picking on you but you said you knew if you ended in 'detention' you would be in huge trouble at home....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the hair or starve us...... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i didnt' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened, i would have to lie because i was ashamed that we were so bad that we drove my parents to this....this is what we were told..........i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she would be on herion by the time she was 13....and dead by 26.

My granmother would jsut sit and hold me while i shook from a loud noise it took a few years to recover and if it wans't for my grandparents i would be dead now.....

as long as i live i will speak long and loud and hard on the effects of punsihment......

i can tell you exactly what punishing does to a child......

Sheri, that wasn't punishment, that was abuse. I think the trouble at home referred to here, and the sickening torture that you endured are two completely different things. There is not even a relationship, but that is beside the point right now.

What is more important is the damage that was done to you, and the consequences it has had in your life. Sad doesn't even say it, Sheri. Gee, this put a tear in my eye, and it takes a lot for that to happen. I usually sympathize without taking emotions on, myself, but this did actually make me cry a little. I am so so so hugely tremendously sorry that your childhood was one of torture and abuse, you deserved so much better than that. This explains a lot to me. I begin to understand a little why you have what may seem to some to be over-reactions to some ideas. It is protection to your children, as your reasoning goes. Protection from them having to experience what you did, and it is done in love, I see that too. I am sorry if it was even more painful for you to exorcise this out in the open here with us, but sometimes pain can bring a little awareness. <----- Just my thoughts on it and not something I am going to push. I can see that you want to protect your kids from pain that to your knowledge is always caused by punishment/what I really call discipline, by avoiding the topic altogether, since that ensures that there is no danger of punishment being tainted by something more extremist (in your reasoning). I think you might view discipline as a milder form of abuse, with outright torture described above as simply the more extremist form of it? Like if we were to depict it as a line, you would place discipline or punishment at the beginning, as the formative stage, and abuse as the full-blown result? When most of us see these two ideas as two seperate animals.

I really would give you a big fat hug if I could, right now.

And I would like to praise you for sharing. You might feel vulnerable when you do, but we are looking for ways to understand and help you; not hurt you. Sometimes when you put something out in the open and let the air hit it, you feel vulnerable because you might have had the impression that hiding it was keeping you strong or safe, and you think that putting it out there will lead to an attack or exposure that will take away security, but it really just can begin a path to healing a hurt/weakness. <------- Sometimes the word pictures in my mind are difficult for me to explain in detail, and don't want to change; leading me to believe that it is best to put it out there in that form, for whatever purpose it may serve.

[Shadow_Hill]

This topic, at this point, has nothing to do with Christianity.

It echoes the punishment/reward element of Christianity. A lot of the analogies used by Christians have the biblical god as the father and mankind as his children. We're all naughty children who must abide by his law... just as children must abide by their parents' law or face punishment.

Children brought up in fear.

[eqgumby]

....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the hair or starve us...... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i didnt' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened, i would have to lie because i was ashamed that we were so bad that we drove my parents to this....this is what we were told..........i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she would be on herion by the time she was 13....and dead by 26.

I see that your personal experience was horribly negative. However, punishing is NOT inherently wrong. Being beaten by mentally ill adults who call it punishment IS wrong. My 15 year old getting a smack in the back of his head when he rolls his eyes at me after a lecture on his $200 cell phone bill, is a bit rough, but far from abuse. Of course, if he has a drug problem and is in therapy when he is 30, I'm sure he'll call that smack a beating. The fact that you were victimized is not a reason to turn any form of physical punishment into an abuse case. Poor people like you can unfortunately and unintentionally go too far in the other direction when it comes to discipline. I feel bad for you, don't misinterpret my criticism. It just seems that cases like yours polarize people so much.

I'll give an example. Years ago I was in California attending a lecture on spouse abuse. the speaker made a comment that any physical touching that was unwanted from a man to a woman was abuse. ANY! One man in the audience asked if it was OK to defend ones self from an attacking woman. I think he smelled blood in the water, and like a shark went in for the kill. The speaker said NO. It was not OK. This degraded into a free for all, and in the end she made it clear that ANY time a man touched a woman uninvited, even in defense, the man was guilty of abuse, and the woman was a victim. Many people got up and walked out. Why? What about equality? What about my friend who was beaten by his wife weekly for years? Was he guilty of abuse when he pushed her off of him and locked her out of the bedroom? He was according to her. Why would she think this? I'll tell you why. After women being oppressed for so long, for being beaten at will and treated like property for centuries, you are bound to get backlash. In her eyes, if you had a vagina, you were automatically a victim. That is what she was preaching.

The parallel I am trying to draw is that one extreme case does not mean all cases are extreme. It's way to easy to label all punishment abuse, when that is not the case, just like all abuse is not punishment.

Edited May 4, 2007 by eqgumby

[Zartia]

I exercised my right to spare the rod spoil the child fairly recently and as a person who was brought up under the spare the rod spoil the child rule I find it absoutely necessary to rear a child properly.

I am not talking about child abuse at all that is totally different and most def uncalled for.

Talking about my situation where I had to use this tactic I talked to my child countless of times about acting out in school and we both agreed that she wouldn't do it again we had several Talks through the school year in spite of our talks she chose to let her peers reactions at school be the more influential reactions on her, she got in a fight not once but twice in the same day with the same person and made the little girl cry why peers cheered he on, I let that go and talked to her because afterall from what I here the little girl hit her first. Since her fights in school her behaviour got worse because now the kids made her fill like the big man on campus so she started talking back to her teacher to show how big and bad she is so I talked to her about her behavior again she promised me she wouldn't do it again, but oneday her teacher told her she couldn't go to the store in school so she took her shoe off an threw it at the teacher.

Her teacher called me and me starting to feel like she was taking my talks and my nice form of discipline as a joke decided it was time for me to let her know she was gonna reap consequences for her actions so I got her home and tore her stanking but up because she was an attitutde problem about to explode and me as the mother had to bring her down a notch, being disrespectful is not cute so at that point I was thru talking to her about it.

I spared the rod on her but and then made her do house chores, she didn't like it but you know what she will respect it, and later on that day when she did what she had to do she came in the room and apologized to me for her behavior and told me she was gonna apologize to her teacher and that she loved me.

Since that happened I have not heard about her being anything less than a perfect angel at school. The problem with this nation and the youth now is we discarded this rule on too many times with our children and they are to a point that they don't fair the parents or anyone else but I tell you what if I don't discipline my child now the system will have no problem with doing it once they get older so to avoid having to go through the torture of you child being in prison why not bring out the belt evey once in a while when we see a problem arising in our children.

Unfotunately we are living in the times of described by the following scriptures:2 Timothy 3:1-4: (KJV) "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God."

Proverbs 30:11-14: "There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Isaiah 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward."

It is time for adults to put the fear of The Heavenly Father back in these children and not feel sorry for staigtening them up when they get outta line.

[IamsSon]

son I'm not picking on you but you said you knew if you ended in 'detention' you would be in huge trouble at home....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the hair or starve us...... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i didnt' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened, i would have to lie because i was ashamed that we were so bad that we drove my parents to this....this is what we were told..........i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she would be on herion by the time she was 13....and dead by 26.

My granmother would jsut sit and hold me while i shook from a loud noise it took a few years to recover and if it wans't for my grandparents i would be dead now.....

as long as i live i will speak long and loud and hard on the effects of punsihment......

i can tell you exactly what punishing does to a child......

also son you may find this hard to beleive but I would lay awake at night praying to god to help me and do you know i felt he did when my grandma came for me....

she told me she was having dreams , my real dad had died when i was three and my grandmother felt he came in her dreams and told her to go get me I was in trouble ..she did..i really beleived god told her......( okay I was seven)

Sheri, I'm so sorry your childhood was like this. That's horrible!

But no, my childhood was not like that at all. My father was strict with us, but he never even yelled at us, and although my Mom did yell at us (I remember just how exasperating we could be) and we got spanked on our bottoms and sometimes got our hands slapped (for hitting one of our brothers or friends), but we NEVER got beaten around the head or punched in any way! That's horrible!!! We were also NEVER starved or dragged out of our beds by the hair or anything like that. My parents treated us very very lovingly, but they were strict and they did teach us what was right and wrong, they taught us how to behave and let us know there would be consequences (spankings, groundings, lectures) for misbehavior, but because we loved them so much and because we knew they were proud of us, probably the thing I and my sister and brothers feared the most was being a disappointment to them

I can see why you have such a disdain for discipline if that is how you were treated, but that was abuse, Sheri, not spanking, that was ridiculous, and you need to understand that when I or other parents around here talk about spanking, what we are talking about is nowhere near the abuse you received! I'm horrified to think you went through that! I am truly incensed that anyone would treat children like that!!

Edited May 4, 2007 by IamsSon

[eqgumby]

It echoes the punishment/reward element of Christianity. A lot of the analogies used by Christians have the biblical god as the father and mankind as his children. We're all naughty children who must abide by his law... just as children must abide by their parents' law or face punishment.

Children brought up in fear.

Your above statement gets us back on topic!

Unfortunately it's so mired in perception, and so hard to validate or verify the intent of the original authors of these bible passages (related to discipline). It's almost futile to discuss the past unless it's in relation to what we as humanity can do to get beyond the negative aspects of our shared history and religions. That's not what happens in these threads, nor is it the OP's intent as far as I can tell. Rather, it appears to be an open invitation to relate any and all negative Christian experiences, and to then sit around and agree that Christianity is bad and the cause of *insert crime against humanity here*. I feel like I'm trapped in a hen house when I start reading one of these threads that's DESIGNED to inflame and incite. It's a trap, laid for "believers" like IamsSon.

[glorybebe]

Sheri, I'm so sorry your childhood was like this. That's horrible!

But no, my childhood was not like that at all. My father was strict with us, but he never even yelled at us, and although my Mom did yell at us (I remember just how exasperating we could be) and we got spanked on our bottoms and sometimes got our hands slapped (for hitting one of our brothers or friends), but we NEVER got beaten around the head or punched in any way! That's horrible!!! We were also NEVER starved or dragged out of our beds by the hair or anything like that. My parents treated us very very lovingly, but they were strict and they did teach us what was right and wrong, they taught us how to behave and let us know there would be consequences (spankings, groundings, lectures) for misbehavior, but because we loved them so much and because we knew hey were proud of us, probably the thing I and my sister and brothers feared the most was being a disappointment to them

I can see why you have such a disdain for discipline if that is how you were treated, but that was abuse, Sheri, not spanking, that was ridiculous, and you need to understand that when I or other parents around here talk about spanking, what we are talking about is nowhere near the abuse you received! I'm horrified to think you went through that! I am truly incensed that anyone would treat children like that!!

I totally agree with you. It is because we loved our parents and didn't want to disappoint them that we behaved. We did get a swat on the but once in a while, but NEVER were we beaten. And out of four children, not one was EVER in trouble with the law. I have given my daughter a swat when she really was out of line and endangering herself and others, yet her dad yells at her when she goes to visit him and she shakes. She tells me that he absolutely scares the crap out of her when he yells. I told her that I spank her once in a while, what is the difference, she says that he scares her because she worries that if he ever loses his temper he will REALLY hurt her. She is scared to even disagree with him or tell him she doesn't feel like talking to him on the phone, because eh will keep hanging up on her and making her feel absolutely guilty for not doing what he wants her to. SO, when you compare the two, which does more harm? The swat which will be forgotten within an hour or the emotional abuse that is dished out to a little girl? She feel comfortable and secure with me to tell me these things and to look to me for protection. ( And I do what I can, but unfortunately the law protects the dads, even when they do things like this to their children. )

Now, Sheri, I was reading your posts and wondering where you were coming from. When you stated how your childhood was, I got teary eyed, for NO child should ever go through what you did. And for your sister to be left in that environment, the system totally failed her. You have my heartfelt sympathy and understanding for what you believe in. But remember going too far the other way can damage your children too. Loving them isn't enough these days. As long as children understand that doing something that they know isn't right is going to result in some sort of punishment, they should be alright. When my daughter does something that she KNOWS is wrong, I ask her why and then say what would happen to an adult who did something they know is wrong? She knows that adults will go to jail or lose their job. Terre are rules for a reason, they are supposed to protect us. So, to protect our children, they need to know what rules are. That is our JOB as parents to teach our children, let's hope it's teaching them what they really need to know.