spare the rod ..spoil the child

[+Sherapy]

QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ May 4 2007, 01:23 PM) *

It echoes the punishment/reward element of Christianity. A lot of the analogies used by Christians have the biblical god as the father and mankind as his children. We're all naughty children who must abide by his law... just as children must abide by their parents' law or face punishment.

Children brought up in fear.

excellent point Shadow and really that is the point of this thread.....this type of parenting permeates society whether one is religous on not..there was actually a study done on this.....

We have a parentiing style built on False beleifs, and not enough folks are really seeing that.. or interested in looking at it..

My childhood was extreme yet punishment of any kind is extreme and the point is its ineffective for preparing a child for life, theres tons of proof and yet ...what it does is just let the child know what mommy and daddys stress levels are and try to not cross them, for fear of retaliation...

what has a child learned when you take things from them how is this helping them in life???

why are apretns hititing and yelling and threatening is it laziness is it ignorance (jsut don't know )

how does punishment teach responsibility? these are serious questions ..parenting is the most serious thing we ever dio in our lives why so little preperation goes into it ????

As it seems i have read that self correcting is not even heard of only by a few and yet is been around for a long time since the writngs of . BF skinner although contriversial made some profound discoveries as did Piagets who to this day is a pioneer on understanding kids..........

waldorf philosphy notes the phases a child goes through and gears education around that to help utilize the growth in a way that is beneficail to the child.....its ingenious and it works.....

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[+Sherapy]

0 AM']Sheri, I'm so sorry your childhood was like this. That's horrible!

But no, my childhood was not like that at all. My father was strict with us, but he never even yelled at us, and although my Mom did yell at us (I remember just how exasperating we could be) and we got spanked on our bottoms and sometimes got our hands slapped (for hitting one of our brothers or friends), but we NEVER got beaten around the head or punched in any way! That's horrible!!! We were also NEVER starved or dragged out of our beds by the hair or anything like that. My parents treated us very very lovingly, but they were strict and they did teach us what was right and wrong, they taught us how to behave and let us know there would be consequences (spankings, groundings, lectures) for misbehavior, but because we loved them so much and because we knew hey were proud of us, probably the thing I and my sister and brothers feared the most was being a disappointment to them

I can see why you have such a disdain for discipline if that is how you were treated, but that was abuse, Sheri, not spanking, that was ridiculous, and you need to understand that when I or other parents around here talk about spanking, what we are talking about is nowhere near the abuse you received! I'm horrified to think you went through that! I am truly incensed that anyone would treat children like that!!

Son i feel that my deep understandings of children and punsihment came from my childhood, i have derived alot of wisdom and value from it i am not a victum nor are my parents villians they were parenting on false beleifs, they are since very sorry and are forgiven by me...they are very proud of me...we can't go back but we can learn and that is what we have done as a family........ We are at peace,, see for them they didn't want kids after all it turned out to be not for them but what do you do???? this hapepns alot.

.......... the point is it doesn't work to prepare you for life..... no mattter how you slice it, what it does do is make you good at taking a fall or taking your medicine or being a scape goat staying in things you dont' want to ..... It doesn't help you problem solve or self correct or value yourself or others, it does create varying degrees of violence which is observable we have a issue in humainty ..... many have hit thier kids... punished them ...actually those that don't are considered lepers yet they have few issues none that warrants punishment.....and this world is so dangerous and full of issues....

the issue is the way we parent as a whole its not working its creating the issues.....thats what i'm driving at...

ex. little Johnny din't do his homework ...mom says you better do it or else little johnny dosen't do it mom takes away somethng he does his homework.. mom feels a success in parenting the next night little johnny dosen't do his homework, mom never connects that she hasn't taught anythig of value .......... this is how most parent.... a problem solved is an asset ..once it solved its end of problem...

and LJ learns how to problem solve, .... ... .... who decides when its extreme punsihment certainly not the child.... ?????

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[IamsSon]

Son i feel that my deep understandings of children and punsihment came from my childhood, i have derived alot of wisdom and value from it i am not a victum nor are my parents villians they were parenting on false beleifs, they are since very sorry and are forgiven by me...they are very proud of me...we can't go back but we can learn and that is what we have done as a family........ We are at peace,, see for them they didn't want kids after all it truned out ot be not for them but what tdo you do???? this hapepns alot........... the point is it doesn't work to prepare you for life..... no mattter how you slice it, what it does do is make you good at taking a fall or taking your medicine or being a scaoe boat staying in things you dont' want to ..... It doen't help you problem solve or self correct or value yourself or others, it does create varying degrees of violence which is observable we have a issue in humainty ,,, many have hit thier kids... punished them ...actually those that don

't are considered lepers yet they ahve no issues or very few none that wrrents punishment.....and this world is so dangerosu and full of issues....the issue is the way we parent as a whole its not working its creating the issues.....thats what i'm driving at... ex. little Johnny din't do his homework ...mom says you better do it or else little johnny dosen't do it mom takes away somethng he does his homework.. mom feels a success in parenting the next night little johnny dosen't do his homework, mom ner connects its that she hasn't taugh tof value a...nything .......... ths ivs how msot parent.... a problem solved is an asset ..once it solved its end of problem... and LJ learns how to problem solve, .... ... .... who decides when its extreme punsihment certainly not the child.... ????? pa

Like I said, Sheri, what your parents did was sick! And you're completely right, that kind of abuse doesn't prepare you for life, and you're completely correct that does only make you good at taking a fall or "taking your medicine" or being a scape goat, it certainly doesn't help you problem solve or self-correct, and that kind of horrible abuse certainly will not help you value yourself or others, and I'm glad you were able to forgive them for abusing you and your sister in that horrible way, but maybe you also need to take the time to understand that what your parents did was fantastically over the top and really DOES NOT reflect what spanking and corporal punishment mean.

A thinking, loving, caring, SANE adult decides what is and isn't abuse, Sheri, that's who decides. Your parents, at least at the time they were abusing you so horrible were not thinking, loving, caring or sane. You can't use them as valid examples of how parents spank and discipline.

[+Sherapy]

A thinking, loving, caring, SANE adult decides what is and isn't abuse, Sheri, that's who decides. Your parents, at least at the time they were abusing you so horrible were not thinking, loving, caring or sane. You can't use them as valid examples of how parents spank and discipline.

setting aside my childhood after the age of 7 i was with loviing guides i was never hit or punished in any way, never grounded etc...all my freinds were all the time...my grandparetns were older too and that makes a huge diffenrce in parenting they had the patience to take the time to teach not punish, they were paying attention........ so really we can set aside my childhood.... although .many kids in my day were parented as this it wasn' that uncommon, if you have been reading this is not so abnormal

how is opunishment sane ? there is no love in punsihment now i know this goes against what you have been taught but in fact love can't' be.. i know many feel this is love..my question is how is this love and what is loving about it ???

I'm just asking.... by now you can see i make no judgments i donot see in right or wrong , but i'd like to delve into this with you...

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

A thinking, loving, caring, SANE adult decides what is and isn't abuse, Sheri, that's who decides. Your parents, at least at the time they were abusing you so horrible were not thinking, loving, caring or sane. You can't use them as valid examples of how parents spank and discipline.

Exactly.

[Moondoggy]

Well, what can I say? It seems that once again that if we would take time to "research" the subject objectively we would see what is meant. Only and I mean ONLY can one understand the bible accurately if they understand customs and mannerisms of the east. The rod of correction to the eastern mind has nothing to do with beating your child with a ball bat for God's sake. The shepherd would use a "rod" to guide the sheep in a gentle manner when bringing them in and out to graze. This rod of correction has a meaning of guidance and not beating animals nor humans with it. Please! For the love of God do your homework before spouting off on a subject you know absolutely nothing about.

[+Sherapy]

Well, what can I say? It seems that once again that if we would take time to "research" the subject objectively we would see what is meant. Only and I mean ONLY can one understand the bible accurately if they understand customs and mannerisms of the east. The rod of correction to the eastern mind has nothing to do with beating your child with a ball bat for God's sake. The shepherd would use a "rod" to guide the sheep in a gentle manner when bringing them in and out to graze. This rod of correction has a meaning of guidance and not beating animals nor humans with it. Please! For the love of God do your homework before spouting off on a subject you know absolutely nothing about.

this is interesting then why are so many punishing their kids??? when not only is it ineffective it isn't nesscecary at all not even once, not all these folks can have kids so heinous they need to be hit or punished????...yet post after post many are employing some form...its a cultural norm to punish and call it teaching.....that is what i am addressing and if the bible doesn't mean that then ther are a whole lots of relgious folks that have made a huge mistake...which i bet you aren't gonna get anyone to agree...can the behavioral sciences be in error.... there are laws in most states that do not allow children to be hit or yelled at now..Now unless you are turned in chances are you can smack your kids but if you get turned in you are looking at aprenting classes and therapy..its not considered loving behavior.....

i knew of a man that felt it was his right to hit his kid till CPS showed up and the man tryed ot deter them with a shot gun whcih just further showed his ineffective parentiing skills the man would not be able to be around his child for a year and had to do some intensive parenting and anger managment classes..for the naysayers that say its their right to punish... news flash child protective services says otherwise......

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[hyperactive]

A thinking, loving, caring, SANE adult decides what is and isn't abuse, Sheri, that's who decides. Your parents, at least at the time they were abusing you so horrible were not thinking, loving, caring or sane. You can't use them as valid examples of how parents spank and discipline.

setting aside my childhood after the age of 7 i was with loviing guides i was never hit or punished in any way, never grounded etc...all my freinds were all the time...my grandparetns were older too and that makes a huge diffenrce in parenting they had the patience to take the time to teach not punish, they were paying attention........ so really we can set aside my childhood.... although .many kids in my day were parented as this it wasn' that uncommon, if you have been reading this is not so abnormal

how is opunishment sane ? there is no love in punsihment now i know this goes against what you have been taught but in fact love can't' be.. i know many feel this is love..my question is how is this love and what is loving about it ???

I'm just asking.... by now you can see i make no judgments i donot see in right or wrong , but i'd like to delve into this with you...

how is punishment sane?

when having been punished, one needs to bring to terms the punishment, and the punisher. Does one deem the act "insane", "unjust"? How does that fit with the previous views of the punisher? In essence, to still uphold the authority figure in a positive light, the punished needs to justify the act of the punisher, casting the blame upon themselves. This in turn shapes how they view the world in general. If there is a justification for punishment for them, there is justification for punishment of others, and thus the cycle of punishment continues. Punishment is the shortsighted, reactionary approach to conditioning. Of course, son #1 will disagree .

[+Sherapy]

how is punishment sane?

when having been punished, one needs to bring to terms the punishment, and the punisher. Does one deem the act "insane", "unjust"? How does that fit with the previous views of the punisher? In essence, to still uphold the authority figure in a positive light, the punished needs to justify the act of the punisher, casting the blame upon themselves. This in turn shapes how they view the world in general. If there is a justification for punishment for them, there is justification for punishment of others, and thus the cycle of punishment continues. Punishment is the shortsighted, reactionary approach to conditioning. Of course, son #1 will disagree .

thanks doc... i asked the same thing....not to mention it dosen't teach all these things that so many think it does.....If my background in an abusive childhood and countless parenting classess and 20 years of parenting doesn't qualify me as versed your degree in physcology most likely won't fair any better Doc...LOL

[IamsSon]

how is punishment sane?

when having been punished, one needs to bring to terms the punishment, and the punisher. Does one deem the act "insane", "unjust"? How does that fit with the previous views of the punisher? In essence, to still uphold the authority figure in a positive light, the punished needs to justify the act of the punisher, casting the blame upon themselves. This in turn shapes how they view the world in general. If there is a justification for punishment for them, there is justification for punishment of others, and thus the cycle of punishment continues. Punishment is the shortsighted, reactionary approach to conditioning. Of course, son #1 will disagree .

I'm quoting a previous post of mine:

A friend of mine who is a chaplain in the U.S. Army teaches a class on child rearing. He tells this story every time:

One day walking out of church, he and his wife were busy making sure they had the diaper bag, bottles, etc. and fell a bit behind their kids (they had 5 boys, and at this time the youngest was not quite 2 years old). He looked up to see where the rest of the boys were and he saw the second youngest, who was 3, had gotten away from his older brothers and had stepped off the curb into the street between two parked cars and was about to walk out right in front of a fast moving car. There was no way he could reach his son in time to stop him! So, using his DAD VOICE (you know the one), he barked out the boy's name. All of his kids knew that when Dad used that tone, they were expected to immediately stop what they were doing and give him their full attention or they would get spanked immediately, not after two or three warnings, but immediately. The boy turned to face his dad, and not only avoided getting run over, but he never even saw how close he came to being hit. His point: Teaching your kids discipline is not for your benefit, it's for theirs.

If this kid had been raised with no discipline... he would also be dead... but you're right: "Punishment is the shortsighted, reactionary approach to conditioning." pffft!

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

i knew of a man that felt it was his right to hit his kid till CPS showed up and the man tryed ot deter them with a shot gun whcih just further showed his ineffective parentiing skills the man would not be able to be around his child for a year and had to do some intensive parenting and anger managment classes..for the naysayers that say its their right to punish... news flash child protective services says otherwise......

Extreme cases don't make your point. Swats on the bottom are not going to hurt a child's psyche. I understand a little why you are out there on your beliefs after your abuse. My abuse by my mentally ill mother did not effect my ability to reason or raise my own children. Once again, like all your posts. Just because you believe something does not make it right. You being a vegan does not make it right for everyone. You homeschooling your children does not make it right for everyone. You not spanking your children does not mean you are right. These are just your beliefs not universal truths. Stop being so judgemental. You are not god.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Eric Raven The Skeptic

[+Sherapy]

Extreme cases don't make your point. Swats on the bottom are not going to hurt a child's psyche. I understand a little why you are out there on your beliefs after your abuse. My abuse by my mentally ill mother did not effect my ability to reason or raise my own children. Once again, like all your posts. Just because you believe something does not make it right. You being a vegan does not make it right for everyone. You homeschooling your children does not make it right for everyone. You not spanking your children does not mean you are right. These are just your beliefs not universal truths. Stop being so judgemental. You are not god.

Eric, these are the wisdoms of the behavioral sciences... LOL.....

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Eric, these are the wisdoms of the behavioral sciences... LOL.....

LoL all you want. It doesn't make you right or funny. They are your wisdoms brought on by a bad childhood. Nothing more. My mother chased me with a knife when I was 10. I don't push my beliefs on people like you do. Your way or the highway should be your motto.

[+Sherapy]

I'm quoting a previous post of mine:

If this kid had been raised with no discipline... he would also be dead... but you're right: "Punishment is the shortsighted, reactionary approach to conditioning." pffft!

son LOL we have all said myself , hyper and shadow and purplos that all that is ever needed to parent is a firm tone in the voice, for those moments .thankyou for proving our point.....I will bookmark this page i have a feeling i will be using it alot.......

so then what are you advocating punishing as a means of parenting ???

a effective parent NEVER EVeR has to hit punish ,take things, ground, punish scare threaten beat, no light taps on the hand, or but or isolation or verbal critism, yank yell, etc..that is what we are saying.....

these methods you are not effectively/sane ......a parernt teaches, guides, talks, explains, models understands, a childs physche and phases of the child.. and models . the behaviors they want to pass on..........they never shame or guilt the child..you have posted guilt is a staple of parenting...and good for the kid....

Edited May 4, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[+Sherapy]

LoL all you want. It doesn't make you right or funny. They are your wisdoms brought on by a bad childhood. Nothing more. My mother chased me with a knife when I was 10. I don't push my beliefs on people like you do. Your way or the highway should be your motto.

did someone put sand in your hamburger ???? LOL

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

a effective parent NEVER EVeR has to hit punish ,take things, ground, punish scare threaten beat, no light taps on the hand, or but or isolation or verbal critism, yank yell, etc..that is what we are saying.....

if you are using these methods you are not parenting effectively/sanely your words......a parernt teaches, guides, talks, explains, models undrestands a childs physche and pahses of then child.. and models . the behaviors they want......they never shame or guilt the child..you have psoted guilt is a staple of parenting...and good forthe kid....

This is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. You have gone totally over the edge.

[+Sherapy]

This is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. You have gone totally over the edge.

this doesn' teach and this is what this thread is about ..the effects of punishment in parenting is it teaching a child about life??? i get that you see this as an oppourtunity to be disrespectful becasue you don't agree..sorry pal but this is my opinion like it or not and you don't like my opinons oh well.....don't come on here is what i'd suggest....do you have anything to contribute to the thread ??? if i didn't like you i wouldn't go around you simple as that ...

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

this doesn' teach and this is what this thread is about ..the effects of punishment in parenting is it teaching a child about life??? i get that you see this as an oppourtunity to be disrespectful becasue you don't agree..sorry pal but this is my opinion like it or not and you don't like my opinons oh well.....don't come on here is what i'd suggest....do you have anything to contribute to the thread ??? if i didn't like you i wouldn't go around you simple as that ...

It is my opinon and just as you I will state it. Thankyou. I come around because your opinions are unbelievable. Have a good day.

[IamsSon]

son LOL we have all said myself , hyper and shadow and purplos that all that is ever needed to parent is a firm tone in the voice, for those moments .thankyou for proving our point.....I will bookmark this page i have a feeling i will be using it alot.......

so then what are you advocating punishing as a means of parenting ???

a effective parent NEVER EVeR has to hit punish ,take things, ground, punish scare threaten beat, no light taps on the hand, or but or isolation or verbal critism, yank yell, etc..that is what we are saying.....

these methods you are not effectively/sane ......a parernt teaches, guides, talks, explains, models understands, a childs physche and phases of the child.. and models . the behaviors they want to pass on..........they never shame or guilt the child..you have posted guilt is a staple of parenting...and good for the kid....

Obviously, you AGAIN did not read the post correctly.

I mentioned that:

All of his kids knew that when Dad used that tone, they were expected to immediately stop what they were doing and give him their full attention or they would get spanked immediately,

The firm tone, what I and my kids refer to as the "Dad Tone" works because the child knows there are IMMEDIATE repercussions to NOT listening.

[+Sherapy]

It is my opinon and just as you I will state it. Thankyou. I come around because your opinions are unbelievable. Have a good day.

you can state your opinons all you want i want you too and you can do it without insulting anyone.. because you don't agree ... who cares its jsut a debate, you take it way to serious...

[+Sherapy]

Obviously, you AGAIN did not read the post correctly.

I mentioned that:

The firm tone, what I and my kids refer to as the "Dad Tone" works because the child knows there are IMMEDIATE repercussions to NOT listening.

well i have used the tone too and it carrys no consequence its used to keep my child safe and they know that if it is used ....

Edited May 5, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[IamsSon]

well i have used the tone too and it carrys no consequence its used to keep my child safe and they know that if it is used ....

...What? What happens if it's used by you, Sheri? What do your children know will or won't happen if you use this tone?

and this you would call Sane????

your words....

YES! It saved a child, because the child knew the importance of absolute obedience to that tone.

[+Sherapy]

...What? What happens if it's used by you, Sheri? What do your children know will or won't happen if you use this tone?

YES! It saved a child, because the child knew the importance of absolute obedience to that tone.

both my husband and i have the firm voice and have used it on occasion, to protect our kids the main thing as parents is our kids are safe, they are fuly aware of this a we have told them ..simply told them i or hubby rarely have to use it and it would only be used in the event of a emergency... once it was used when a little boy was hit by a car in front of our house and we needed our son now., he was on it and kknew why it was used.. we teach not punish........ i have no issues with my kids listening i do not need punishments at all..that is what i am saying....my husband and i share the parenting equally.... you dont' need created consequences to get your kids to resepct you ... they nataurally will and do... .....you may have got some bogus info son...

Edited May 5, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[Shadow_Hill]

...What? What happens if it's used by you, Sheri? What do your children know will or won't happen if you use this tone?

When my mum used her tone, I knew it meant that I needed to give serious thought to something I'd said or done. As far back as I can remember, my mum and I had discussions about actions and possible reactions... the consequences of my actions, and why some actions brought about positive reactions and some brought about negative ones. Cause and effect. The tone wasn't intended to make me fearful of punishment, it was intended to make me think... and think I did. That tone alerted me to the fact that I had done or said something that may have hurt someone. It did not signify the possibility that I would suffer pain by my mother's hand if I did not stop... it signified the possibility that another would suffer pain caused by me if I did not stop. The pain I might cause was the deterrent... not the pain I might suffer.

Why hit a child to show her that others might suffer if you don't? Simpy explain that others might suffer.

[Radian]

( May God bless my mother and father souls I write this).

My father was an extremely abusive alcoholic. Raising us kids alone, after my mother attempted to kill us twice, and disappeared after her serving prison time to live her own life. We didn't see her for years- My mother was mentally ill I do believe, and suffered from severe drug abuse. Our father recieved custody of us kids after she was sent on and he made us pay for her actions psy/ment/phys/emotional. I being the eldest took more blunt force-- I was his scapegoat for his pain. ...... Next to me, was my smallest brother, he took a lot as well. My sis (middle) he seemed to favour and seem to have seen himself in her. Like I was my mother's child, and my sis was his & he resented everything having to do with my mother. We paid the price for being our mother's children. My father's abuse was so bad that the school once reported the severe cuts and bruises on my neck and back (not once, but twice)... The problem was my aunt (father's sister) was the Head Juvee Judge's secretary (authority over human resources).... She placed it upon herself to do the house check, and the report went in the trash in protecting her brother. I managed to escape at 15 pregnant scared to death, and had no other choice but to fight my father like a man..He hit me one too many times, and I really felt I had nothing to lose--& I gave it my all... I was on a bottom then. It only made me madder & stronger. I do NOT recall a time feeling secure, loved, cared for, important, even remotely respected as a human being in my childhood- From either of my parents....

My mother, after she was released, I took her in to live with me as I was established by that time (I was 21/22 at time). My heart truly wanted a relationship with my mother... I didn't seem to care if she tried to kill us, or was resentful to us kids.. I wanted desperately to be wanted, or accepted by my mother just loved is all -- very simple thing It would seem for her to love her own kids--Or so I thought... The relationship was extremely odd. I had became frustrated I couldnt get these things

from her, Strange it turned around that She was the child, I was the adult. I had began to give her all those things I was lookng for. That woman caused me a lot of pain, & I admit I let her.

One thing I have learned is this: there is no love greater than the love given to a child from its mother. A mother's love is the greatest, and it doesn't cost one thing. It's given as a birth right to all.

More though,

my parents taught me VERY WELL what NOT to do to my kids. They taught me well without knowing it. Because I know how deeply it hurts to be rejected by your own folks, I have always went out of my way to show my kids otherwise. This is consistant & this is key. Constistance on the discipline, regardlless the style (except abuse or neglect of course), rules, unconditional hugs (even when they do something wrong, let them know you love them anyway), conversations, etc..,

anywayzz, that's my few cents on it..

Edited May 5, 2007 by Sunni