spare the rod ..spoil the child

[MUM24/7]

EXACTLY..she has made it clear...

Saw it on the news myself

Cheer up everyone...its MOTHERS DAY...

Geri, you're the best.....

[MissMelsWell]

did you read post 1128

Yep, I did. I have no problem with it. You can't keep your kids swaddled in wool and silk their whole lives.

If my daughter had taken her shoes off at the park, honestly, I'd not have brought her her shoes like you do for your son. I would have told her to leave her shoes on, if she had removed them against my directions, she'd have been told to get them herself. If she got stung, we'd have dealt with it.

Perhaps my outlook is a little different, my daughter was raised in a lifestyle that was dangerous for kids in a way. Her young life we lived on the beach, and beach safety was paramount, letting her get into a little trouble around the beach was essential, otherwise she'd just be taking my word for it. We traveled extensively, letting my hand go while in a market in Hong Kong or an airport in Bangkok or Singapore could have been disasterous. In short, she had to learn my word and my direction was the final word. But I couldn't have done that without her finding out on her own (under my watchful eye when she was very young) that "mother is always right". Because of that, she became a very self-sufficient, street smart, kid at a very young age, one I could trust enough to get on a plane alone at age 15 and fend for herself in Tokyo for several weeks.

Edited May 14, 2007 by MissMelsWell

[+Sherapy]

Yep, I did. I have no problem with it.

fair enough MW....

[Kazahel]

Not really the same thing but I wonder how many young children died in backyard swimming pools because their parents thought it was enough to tell them not to go near. I guess those kids and parents learned their lessons together. Thank God now days its compulsory to have fences.

And a child at 3yrs old is still young enough to be wrapped in cotton wool. Thats what you kinda do to kids until they are wise enough to understand certain things which can be dangerous. You protect them.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Kazahel

[IamsSon]

And a child at 3yrs old is still young enough to be wrapped in cotton wool. Thats what you kinda do to kids until they are wise enough to understand certain things which can be dangerous. You protect them.

And how do they become wise enough if they are always wrapped in wool being kept out of trouble only by you, not by anything they have learned and experienced on their own?

[MissMelsWell]

Not really the same thing but I wonder how many young children died in backyard swimming pools because their parents thought it was enough to tell them not to go near. I guess those kids and parents learned their lessons together. Thank God now days its compulsory to have fences.

And a child a 3yrs old is still young enough to be wrapped in cotton wool. Thats what you kinda do to kids until they are wise enough to understand certain things which can be dangerous. You protect them.

I also owned a home with a backyard pool.. thankfully it was never a problem (well, it was once, but no one died, but I did take an 11yo girl to the hospital because she took her face off on the concrete cantalever), HOWEVER, I cannot tell you how many times I argued with parents when I had parties. I INSISTED that children who could not swim wear a simple, lighweight, life vest. Those parents would argue with me up and down that there were so many people around that if one of the kids went in, 5 adults would jump in after them. Unfortunately, the most backyard pool accidents happen when there are tons of adults around, everyone thinks everyone else is watching.

If it was just me with one kid around the pool, ya, I'd probably let Jr. fall in and go in after him... that's how they learn.

I'm not saying I was wreckless, I was not, the above is an obvious example of that, however, kids DO need to be allowed to get into their scrapes. I refuse to coddle them, I don't think it's good for them.

[GoddessWhispers]

Not really the same thing but I wonder how many young children died in backyard swimming pools because their parents thought it was enough to tell them not to go near. I guess those kids and parents learned their lessons together. Thank God now days its compulsory to have fences.

And a child at 3yrs old is still young enough to be wrapped in cotton wool. Thats what you kinda do to kids until they are wise enough to understand certain things which can be dangerous. You protect them.

There was a family that lived about 7 miles from our family when I was a kid. They bought this huge corner lot on a very quiet country road, built their dream house and had their first child shortly after. Right about when little one was 3, they decided to install an in ground pool, so she could learn how to swim rather than join the local YMCA. The day the pool was ready to be unveiled at a pool party, and just before it started, baby girl drowned. Seems she'd figured out how to unlock the sliding glass doors to the patio around the pool, while mommy was finishing laying out the food for the buffet set out in the living room. The mother recounted how it was only moments that had passed. One moment baby girl is there handing her napkins for the table settings, the next she's gone. The mother said, to police and as was reported in the local papers, that she'd thought baby girl had tired of helping mommy set the tables, so she wandered off to play. The husband found baby girl, floating in the center of the pool, when he came through the gate from the driveway, with the bags of ice he'd just bought at the grocery.

Certainly children need to learn on their own, responsibility for their actions. However there is a reason a parent is (usually) far older than their child. The wisdom they've gained living through their experiences, has taught them to be who they are in knowing right from wrong. When deciding to be the first role model for the next generation one gives life to in any way, as a father or mother, it's incumbent on that parent to use that knowledge to teach their child what hard knock life taught them, without the knocks to go along with it, when ever possible. It's a sorry excuse to abdicate responsibility for making sure a child comes to no harm, because one can actually live with the excuse the child needed the experience to learn the lesson of what not to do next time. When there are so many times where something can go so tragically wrong that there never ever again, is a next time.

My parents and I attended the funeral of that baby girl all those years ago. In the midst of the shock and the grief, not one person there ever said she earned it, because mommy and daddy had told her repeatedly not to go to the pool without one of them with her. She went. And she died. One wonders, if experiential parenting models would think, as she was struggling in that water, she probably learned why mommy and daddy said that, right before she passed away. But that's not the point now, is it!?

[Kazahel]

And how do they become wise enough if they are always wrapped in wool being kept out of trouble only by you, not by anything they have learned and experienced on their own?

Well your only talking about a little kid... a 3 yr.. a toddler. Your suppose to protect them lots at that age because thats the age when they can hurt themselves the most(I guess). When they get older they listen more and become wiser themselvs with guidence from you. They dont have to learn not to do dangerous things from experiencing the outcome of it. Like a 3yr might be told to stay on the footpath and you dont let him experience what its like to run out in the traffic. You must protect them until they are old enough to understand for themselves.

And with the ants.. I wouldnt have them around at all. Like I went around a child proofed my whole house and made it as safe as I could, and bugs were included in that. I sprayed for redback spiders and stuff like that because I wouldnt risk having anything bite my toddler. So while I was telling my 3 yr son about spiders and the dangers I was spraying to get rid of them. Because I sure wouldnt want him to play with one to find out as a lesson later. Him being a 3 yr and all. And now that he is older I dont worry about anything like that because he just knows they are dangerous.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Kazahel

[MUM24/7]

I have no doubt in my mind that every damn one of you are fit parents...geesh. I've avoided posting on this subject as I believe it's none of my business to tell someone else how to raise their children. Nobody here is wrong!!! Drama, drama, drama!!! How 'bout calling a truce...after almost 80 pages, you guys have made nooooo progress! Time to kiss...make-up, and move on.

InnerSpace, how do you get those little kissy-kissy smiley faces ??

Edited May 14, 2007 by MUM24/7

[MissMelsWell]

Do you really think 3 year olds are that incapable?

My neice is three. I have her in my care quite a bit. At her age, she's fully comunicative, she understands when I say no, she understands TONS of things. She's also a very physical child (3 years old and she's 3'7" now already, taller than most 5 year olds). She's an extremely agile little Billy Goat as I like to call her.

At the playground by her house, there's a jungle gym with a rope ladder that goes up about 7'... she can scramble to the top of that ladder in no time flat. It's HIGH up there, and I let her do it, so does her mother. Could she potentially fall and knock herself out cold? You bet. It hasn't happened yet, but it could. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop her from doing it... she's done it hundreds of times, she's capable.

No, I won't even coddle a three year old, they're thinking little beings at that point in their lives, much more rational than most people give them credit for, obviously.

Edited May 14, 2007 by MissMelsWell

[The Puzzler]

There was a family that lived about 7 miles from our family when I was a kid. They bought this huge corner lot on a very quiet country road, built their dream house and had their first child shortly after. Right about when little one was 3, they decided to install an in ground pool, so she could learn how to swim rather than join the local YMCA. The day the pool was ready to be unveiled at a pool party, and just before it started, baby girl drowned. Seems she'd figured out how to unlock the sliding glass doors to the patio around the pool, while mommy was finishing laying out the food for the buffet set out in the living room. The mother recounted how it was only moments that had passed. One moment baby girl is there handing her napkins for the table settings, the next she's gone. The mother said, to police and as was reported in the local papers, that she'd thought baby girl had tired of helping mommy set the tables, so she wandered off to play. The husband found baby girl, floating in the center of the pool, when he came through the gate from the driveway, with the bags of ice he'd just bought at the grocery.

Certainly children need to learn on their own, responsibility for their actions. However there is a reason a parent is (usually) far older than their child. The wisdom they've gained living through their experiences, has taught them to be who they are in knowing right from wrong. When deciding to be the first role model for the next generation one gives life to in any way, as a father or mother, it's incumbent on that parent to use that knowledge to teach their child what hard knock life taught them, without the knocks to go along with it, when ever possible. It's a sorry excuse to abdicate responsibility for making sure a child comes to no harm, because one can actually live with the excuse the child needed the experience to learn the lesson of what not to do next time. When there are so many times where something can go so tragically wrong that there never ever again, is a next time.

My parents and I attended the funeral of that baby girl all those years ago. In the midst of the shock and the grief, not one person there ever said she earned it, because mommy and daddy had told her repeatedly not to go to the pool without one of them with her. She went. And she died. One wonders, if experiential parenting models would think, as she was struggling in that water, she probably learned why mommy and daddy said that, right before she passed away. But that's not the point now, is it!?

It wouldn't have mattered how many times that little girl had been smacked or told not to go near it, 3 year olds have no real conception of danger, that's why they run on the road after a ball and get run over, small children cannot grasp it. The only thing that may have stopped this tragedy would have been a pool fence. I think many parents think they are grasping it but in a childs mind they are not. Stranger danger is another, we tell them and tell them not to go with strangers because it's dangerous, what what is the meaning of dangerous to a young child, do they even comprehend the word? Even as adults we get told don't smoke it will kill you, but I still smoke, why? (Because I'm stupid I know many are saying) I'm being warned but am not grasping the full reality of it, until I get lung cancer then I might learn my lesson. The only way I see anyone learning anything is dangerous is to learn the lesson the hard way. If adults still don't get the message how can anyone expect kids to? Unfortunately it usually involves a tragedy.

[GoddessWhispers]

Do you really think 3 year olds are that incapable?

My niece is three. I have her in my care quite a bit. At her age, she's fully communicative, she understands when I say no, she understands TONS of things. She's also a very physical child (3 years old and she's 3'7" now already, taller than most 5 year olds). She's an extremely agile little Billy Goat as I like to call her.

At the playground by her house, there's a jungle gym with a rope ladder that goes up about 7'... she can scramble to the top of that ladder in no time flat. It's HIGH up there, and I let her do it, so does her mother. Could she potentially fall and knock herself out cold? You bet. It hasn't happened yet, but it could. It doesn't mean I'm going to stop her from doing it... she's done it hundreds of times, she's capable.

No, I won't even coddle a three year old, they're thinking little beings at that point in their lives, much more rational than most people give them credit for, obviously.

You sound angry people have had other experiences than the ones you claim to have with a three year old. And that drowned little three year old is less rational than you would give credit to most three year olds, obviously. And there are a slew of children in their graves because leaving everything to the thought that little children as young as three are wholly rational, is nonsense. Their death proved that one.

[The Puzzler]

And there are a slew of children in their graves because leaving everything to the thought that little children as young as three are wholly rational, is nonsense.

Absolutely. The only way to stop something is to prevent it with action not words, don't have a swimming pool without a fence, don't let them play with a ball near a road...... don't sell cigarettes.

I have a gate that leads down to my creek but on the weekend my daughters friend left it open even though I have told them repeatedly to shut it and how important this is, I have a nearly 1 year old little boy - the answer, I've bolted the gate so no one can even open it anymore.....

[MissMelsWell]

You sound angry people have had other experiences than the ones you claim to have with a three year old. And that drowned little three year old is less rational than you would give credit to most three year olds, obviously. And there are a slew of children in their graves because leaving everything to the thought that little children as young as three are wholly rational, is nonsense. Their death proved that one.

No, I never said "wholly" rational, clearly they aren't. If my niece was an uncoordinated oaf I wouldn't let her climb the ladder. I let children take risks within their limits and capabilities, but on occasion they will get hurt.

People who put inground pools in then assume that kids won't fall in are completely errant. Like I said, I had a home with an inground pool, kids were required to wear lifevests around it if they could not swim the length of the pool by themselves. If their parents disagreed, they were asked to leave... I only had to ask someone to leave once. I also had an incredibly stuipd cocker spaniel when I lived in that house, he was allowed to run around the pool and fell in more than a few times and never could figure out how to get out at the stairs. I only let him run around when I was watching, otherwise, he was put into the dog run at the side of the house. It's the same way with kids. If I had a 3yo I was watching, and they continually ignored my warnings, I'd let them fall in and then haul them out by the collar if needed. But I'd NEVER do that unless my full attention was being paid to them. If I couldn't ensure that I could watch them, they wouldn't be in the situation to fall in. (my back slider on that house was fitted with not only a lock, but also a latch too high for a kid to reach, I was religious about ensuring that latch was in place).

Heck, my dad taught me to swim by pitching me off a dock into a lake while yelling "sink or swim kid!" (I did have some warning it was coming) I didn't do that with my own kid, I taught her to swim at 5 months (waterbabies), but being pitched off a dock with a parent ready to jump in after them gives the kid a healthy respect for water. I don't necessarily recommend doing this, it did scare the bejeebies out of me, but I did learn to swim.

[GoddessWhispers]

Absolutely. The only way to stop something is to prevent it with action not words, don't have a swimming pool without a fence, don't let them play with a ball near a road...... don't sell cigarettes.

I have a gate that leads down to my creek but on the weekend my daughters friend left it open even though I have told them repeatedly to shut it and how important this is, I have a nearly 1 year old little boy - the answer, I've bolted the gate so no one can even open it anymore.....

Yes, it's about responsibility. The parent raises the child, for a reason. If the child were capable of raising itself, it wouldn't need us from the moment one could walk on their own unencumbered. I'm still trying to fathom the visual rational 3 year old. Given children that young believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy.

[Michelle]

But, according to sheri, she would tell the child once and after that the child will automatically self correct, there is no need for more guidence and her child will be teaching others.

[MUM24/7]

Ant bite(s) are tell tale indicaters of NEGLECT in chld abuse cases, as ringworm, even infestations of lice,

Sunni, sorry for going off-topic sweetie but why is head lice considered child abuse in the US ??

Here in Australia, head lice is as common as a head cold in schools and child care centres.....We always have newsletters sent home to us advising us of a breakout and it normally occurs late summer/early autumn......I remember when my eldest girl started kindy and she got head lice and we had to cut her gorgeous long hair because of it...... Ever since, she's lost her curls but now she's grown it again......She recently got head lice again in 5th class but thankfully, after a couple of treatments, we got rid of it......

The first time though (in kindy), the little buggers were so stubborn, it practically took the whole school term before we could get rid of them....

As I said though, very common and an unfortunate part of school life, here in Australia anyway.......

[KingDrakethe3rd]

I have no problem with discipline used in parenting, it's a common and effective part of parenting. What's not ok is parenting with anger in their heart. Parents need to take time to think about the situation before taking appropriate action. acting on their immediate anger may lead to the parent abusing the child.

[The Puzzler]

Sunni, sorry for going off-topic sweetie but why is head lice considered child abuse in the US ??

Here in Australia, head lice is as common as a head cold in schools and child care centres.....We always have newsletters sent home to us advising us of a breakout and it normally occurs late summer/early autumn......I remember when my eldest girl started kindy and she got head lice and we had to cut her gorgeous long hair because of it...... Ever since, she's lost her curls but now she's grown it again......She recently got head lice again in 5th class but thankfully, after a couple of treatments, we got rid of it......

The first time though (in kindy), the little buggers were so stubborn, it practically took the whole school term before we could get rid of them....

As I said though, very common and an unfortunate part of school life, here in Australia anyway.......

Tell me about it Mum, up here in Nth Queensland its rampant! Even if you get rid of them the next day they reappear like magic. Nits! I am so over them!

[MUM24/7]

Tell me about it Mum, up here in Nth Queensland its rampant! Even if you get rid of them the next day they reappear like magic. Nits! I am so over them!

And I'll have three girls who still aren't in kindy yet........

[+Paranoid Android]

As a pre-service teacher who has undertaken child protection training, I can say for certain that insect bites will NOT be considered in reporting cases of neglect, UNLESS the bites are not being treated in a hygenic manner, ie - no medication, no swabbing, festering sores, infections etc.

[GoddessWhispers]

Correct me if I'm wrong PA, but your understanding of that system regarding child neglect and insect bites, would be relative to Australian laws, yes?

With regard to lice, (forget the SN that asked about why that is considered child neglect), this link may assist.

Excerpt: These operational definitions of neglect are highly dependent upon the standards of the local community and of the caseworker who investigates reports of neglect. However, infants and very young children left without adult supervision for hours, children who are not fed regularly, children who are not taken for necessary medical treatment when ill, chronically dirty, lice-infested children, or chronically truant children are consistently accepted as having experienced neglect

[MUM24/7]

Correct me if I'm wrong PA, but your understanding of that system regarding child neglect and insect bites, would be relative to Australian laws, yes?

With regard to lice, (forget the SN that asked about why that is considered child neglect), this link may assist.

Excerpt: These operational definitions of neglect are highly dependent upon the standards of the local community and of the caseworker who investigates reports of neglect. However, infants and very young children left without adult supervision for hours, children who are not fed regularly, children who are not taken for necessary medical treatment when ill, chronically dirty, lice-infested children, or chronically truant children are consistently accepted as having experienced neglect

Thanks for the link Goddess......I would imagine this applies to Australia as well.......

You can't imagine the terror head lice strikes in the heart of mums here and everywhere.......

[+Paranoid Android]

Correct me if I'm wrong PA, but your understanding of that system regarding child neglect and insect bites, would be relative to Australian laws, yes?

Considering that I am training under the New South Wales Department of Education and Training, that is a valid assumption to make, GW Signs of neglect can include: malnutrition, insufficient clothing for the weather, poor hygene, insufficient treatment of wounds. If a case is referred to the Department of Community Services (DoCS), they may view insect bites as signs of neglect (I'm not certain if their criteria differs from ours), but as a teacher, I am not generally asked to look for such a sign. Though if I did see multiple bites continuously, I might take the view that something is wrong, but a single bite holds no worry for me (or even a few bites - it would have to be continuous, and debilitating, and most likely accompanied by other signs of neglect for me to consider taking action). Edited May 14, 2007 by Paranoid Android

[GoddessWhispers]

Well, you didn't clarify what agency was training you so all I had to go on was the recall, and your saying you lived in Australia. Love Australia! Besides the roo's it has one of the largest populations of venomous snakes on Earth. Humbling, when something hardly 6 inches off the ground can strike and kill a grown man, over 6 feet tall, before he takes three steps. I gotta respect that, no doubt.