Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sherapy

spare the rod ..spoil the child

1,269 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Sherapy
When my mum used her tone, I knew it meant that I needed to give serious thought to something I'd said or done. As far back as I can remember, my mum and I had discussions about actions and possible reactions... the consequences of my actions, and why some actions brought about positive reactions and some brought about negative ones. Cause and effect. The tone wasn't intended to make me fearful of punishment, it was intended to make me think... and think I did. That tone alerted me to the fact that I had done or said something that may have hurt someone. It did not signify the possibility that I would suffer pain by my mother's hand if I did not stop... it signified the possibility that another would suffer pain caused by me if I did not stop. The pain I might cause was the deterrent... not the pain I might suffer.

Why hit a child to show her that others might suffer if you don't? Simpy explain that others might suffer.

exactly shadow... i have done the same the probables are covered and outocmes and effects, on the self and others how it plays out why how and how to live in this awareness ..not to bully my kids but to enrich their life experiecce and have them be effective thinkers and problem solvers, alot of variables come up i wnat the boys to be able to say no and why and solve conflict ect protect themsleves...punishing teaches none of that. how dose a kid beceom slef advocating if we dont' allow for it????......and they do now its smooth sailing my youngest is 9 and self correcting and handles himself with extraordianary maturity... its a breeze..i want to enjoy my kids and have fun alot and i wanted the most effective way to do this.....

sh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
( May God bless my mother and father souls I write this).

My father was an extremely abusive alcoholic. Raising us kids alone, after my mother attempted to kill us twice, and disappeared after her serving prison time to live her own life. We didn't see her for years- My mother was mentally ill I do believe, and suffered from severe drug abuse. Our father recieved custody of us kids after she was sent on and he made us pay for her actions psy/ment/phys/emotional. I being the eldest took more blunt force-- I was his scapegoat for his pain. ...... Next to me, was my smallest brother, he took a lot as well. My sis (middle) he seemed to favour and seem to have seen himself in her. Like I was my mother's child, and my sis was his & he resented everything having to do with my mother. We paid the price for being our mother's children. My father's abuse was so bad that the school once reported the severe cuts and bruises on my neck and back (not once, but twice)... The problem was my aunt (father's sister) was the Head Juvee Judge's secretary (authority over human resources).... She placed it upon herself to do the house check, and the report went in the trash in protecting her brother. I managed to escape at 15 pregnant scared to death, and had no other choice but to fight my father like a man..He hit me one too many times, and I really felt I had nothing to lose--& I gave it my all... I was on a bottom then. It only made me madder & stronger. I do NOT recall a time feeling secure, loved, cared for, important, even remotely respected as a human being in my childhood- From either of my parents....

My mother, after she was released, I took her in to live with me as I was established by that time (I was 21/22 at time). My heart truly wanted a relationship with my mother... I didn't seem to care if she tried to kill us, or was resentful to us kids.. I wanted desperately to be wanted, or accepted by my mother just loved is all -- very simple thing It would seem for her to love her own kids--Or so I thought... The relationship was extremely odd. I had became frustrated I couldnt get these things

from her, Strange it turned around that She was the child, I was the adult. I had began to give her all those things I was lookng for. That woman caused me a lot of pain, & I admit I let her.

One thing I have learned is this: there is no love greater than the love given to a child from its mother. A mother's love is the greatest, and it doesn't cost one thing. It's given as a birth right to all.

More though,

my parents taught me VERY WELL what NOT to do to my kids. They taught me well without knowing it. Because I know how deeply it hurts to be rejected by your own folks, I have always went out of my way to show my kids otherwise. This is consistant & this is key. Constistance on the discipline, regardlless the style (except abuse or neglect of course), rules, unconditional hugs (even when they do something wrong, let them know you love them anyway), conversations, etc..,

anywayzz, that's my few cents on it..

sunni you sound like my grandmsother she said exactly what you said all the time ... she said you can never go wrong by loving your kids and in the times when you are called upon to do this are the greatest gift you can give to your child and she said to learn form your childhood and not repeat it....taht is how you heal....... she was correct.... Love your kids everybody jsut love your kids..thanks my freind for sharing...(((HUGS)))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Radian
sunni you sound like my grandmsother she said exactly what you said all the time ... she said you can never go wrong by loving your kids and in the times when you are called upon to do this are the greatest gift you can give to your child and she said to learn form your childhood and not repeat it....taht is how you heal....... she was correct.... Love your kids everybody jsut love your kids..thanks my freind for sharing...(((HUGS)))

Your grandmother sounds like my kinda woman :tu:

Truth is, I had nothing else to go on, but I knew I didn't want my kids to hurt they same way we did. I understood the power given to us as parents because I know the pain they can place on you as the child.. & as we have such endless influence on them.

<hugs backatcha>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7
son I'm not picking on you but you said you knew if you ended in 'detention' you would be in huge trouble at home....my early years were like this i was literally scared stiff my childhood consited of not making a move, not breathing if i could help it i literally jumped at the drop of a pin my parents had all kinds of does and don't . my mom used to hit me so hard in the ears that now i think i can't hear as well because of it and my dad broke my thumb and beat us with belts all the time or punched my sister repeatedly in the face ( she was 6 years old) for getting a B on her report card......my mom often freaked out and woudl rip us out of bed by the hair or starve us...... i often took beatings for my sister the reason is becasue i didnt' bruise and at school they woudl ask us what happened, i would have to lie because i was ashamed that we were so bad that we drove my parents to this....this is what we were told..........i had a lucky break i was removed and went to my grandparents my sister didnt' get that break, she would be on herion by the time she was 13....and dead by 26.

My granmother would jsut sit and hold me while i shook from a loud noise it took a few years to recover and if it wans't for my grandparents i would be dead now.....

as long as i live i will speak long and loud and hard on the effects of punsihment......

i can tell you exactly what punishing does to a child......

OMG Sheri, I never knew what kind of an upbringing you had :( ......It's very brave of you to open up about it on this forum......I'm so sorry for what your parents put you and your sister through.......No wonder you feel like this about punishment......

But please you must know now that they were actually physically and emotionally abusing their kids...... Parents doing this sort of thing now are reported to authorities Sheri.....This is criminal behaviour as far as I'm concerned........You can't equate an occasional smack/spank on the bottom (when the child can't be reasoned with ie toddlers) with what your parents did to you :no: My heart goes out to you regarding your sister's death.....How tragic and very sad......

It's wonderful to see you come through this as a loving and devoted person that I know you are Sheri....It's a true indication of your strength and courage, I applaud you for that :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7
( May God bless my mother and father souls I write this).

My father was an extremely abusive alcoholic. Raising us kids alone, after my mother attempted to kill us twice, and disappeared after her serving prison time to live her own life.

Sunni, I'm so sorry to hear about your childhood as well......I can't even imagine the horror of your mother attempting to kill her own children.... :(

My God, what you and Sheri have experienced are severe cases of child abuse and neglect......My parents would hit us 4 kids as well but to be honest I only remember my dad hitting me and my sister once with his belt across our legs.....Mostly it was mum slapping our arms or legs but only till we were about 10......

Needless to say, we were afraid of dad and all he had to do was look at us funny and we knew he meant business...... :yes:

While being on UM, I have read many people's personal experiences and I realise now, what a sheltered and uneventful childhood I had.....At the time, I felt mollycoddled (is that a word?) but now looking back, I appreciate the stability and security that my parents provided us.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
Sunni, I'm so sorry to hear about your childhood as well......I can't even imagine the horror of your mother attempting to kill her own children.... :(

My God, what you and Sheri have experienced are severe cases of child abuse and neglect......My parents would hit us 4 kids as well but to be honest I only remember my dad hitting me and my sister once with his belt across our legs.....Mostly it was mum slapping our arms or legs but only till we were about 10......

Needless to say, we were afraid of dad and all he had to do was look at us funny and we knew he meant business...... :yes:

While being on UM, I have read many people's personal experiences and I realise now, what a sheltered and uneventful childhood I had.....At the time, I felt mollycoddled (is that a word?) but now looking back, I appreciate the stability and security that my parents provided us.........

I agree with you MUM, until I became an adult and started dealing with other people outside my family and my parents' circle of friends, I was unaware there were kids who grew up being so horribly abused and it just makes me sick!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bumblesue
Your above statement gets us back on topic!

Unfortunately it's so mired in perception, and so hard to validate or verify the intent of the original authors of these bible passages (related to discipline). It's almost futile to discuss the past unless it's in relation to what we as humanity can do to get beyond the negative aspects of our shared history and religions. That's not what happens in these threads, nor is it the OP's intent as far as I can tell. Rather, it appears to be an open invitation to relate any and all negative Christian experiences, and to then sit around and agree that Christianity is bad and the cause of *insert crime against humanity here*. I feel like I'm trapped in a hen house when I start reading one of these threads that's DESIGNED to inflame and incite. It's a trap, laid for "believers" like IamsSon.

i totally agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bumblesue

this is interesting then why are so many punishing their kids??? when not only is it ineffective it isn't nesscecary at all not even once, not all these folks can have kids so heinous they need to be hit or punished????...yet post after post many are employing some form...its a cultural norm to punish and call it teaching.....that is what i am addressing and if the bible doesn't mean that then ther are a whole lots of relgious folks that have made a huge mistake...which i bet you aren't gonna get anyone to agree...can the behavioral sciences be in error.... there are laws in most states that do not allow children to be hit or yelled at now..Now unless you are turned in chances are you can smack your kids but if you get turned in you are looking at aprenting classes and therapy..its not considered loving behavior.....

i knew of a man that felt it was his right to hit his kid till CPS showed up and the man tryed ot deter them with a shot gun whcih just further showed his ineffective parentiing skills the man would not be able to be around his child for a year and had to do some intensive parenting and anger managment classes..for the naysayers that say its their right to punish... news flash child protective services says otherwise......

[/quot

so you are saying that most of the abusing is being done by christians?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Radian
Sunni, I'm so sorry to hear about your childhood as well......I can't even imagine the horror of your mother attempting to kill her own children.... :(

My God, what you and Sheri have experienced are severe cases of child abuse and neglect......My parents would hit us 4 kids as well but to be honest I only remember my dad hitting me and my sister once with his belt across our legs.....Mostly it was mum slapping our arms or legs but only till we were about 10......

Needless to say, we were afraid of dad and all he had to do was look at us funny and we knew he meant business...... :yes:

While being on UM, I have read many people's personal experiences and I realise now, what a sheltered and uneventful childhood I had.....At the time, I felt mollycoddled (is that a word?) but now looking back, I appreciate the stability and security that my parents provided us.........

Thanks for the words Mum-- :}

The hardest thing I've had to do was forgive them both for not providing those things- Not just to me, but to my bro/ sis as well. Not only grieving was difficult because I never had them, but forgiving for NOT having them too, them both not caring or being there, I was very angry-- I know (I admit) I have walked out with emotional scars, but I have also become resilient in many ways & brought myself out with education and independence. I've learned to reach out with my heart to kids/ women on the street in horrifying situations, be able to empathize with them, heart to heart- give them something that's genuine for a change.. and it's real- its compelling for me & go to bed thinking about them and their faces....I know I wouldn't be able to do this with the most sincerity if I had had it differently.. We are what we have experienced. It's what we take with us from that that makes us count. imo...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
Your above statement gets us back on topic!

Unfortunately it's so mired in perception, and so hard to validate or verify the intent of the original authors of these bible passages (related to discipline). It's almost futile to discuss the past unless it's in relation to what we as humanity can do to get beyond the negative aspects of our shared history and religions. That's not what happens in these threads, nor is it the OP's intent as far as I can tell. Rather, it appears to be an open invitation to relate any and all negative Christian experiences, and to then sit around and agree that Christianity is bad and the cause of *insert crime against humanity here*. I feel like I'm trapped in a hen house when I start reading one of these threads that's DESIGNED to inflame and incite. It's a trap, laid for "believers" like IamsSon.

I agree with your conclusion egumby, unfortunately, traps only work when the victim is unaware that it's in a trap. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eqgumby

spare the rod ..spoil the child, is this biblical advice harming humainty

That's the title of the thread, and as usual it's derailed.

Is it harming humanity? Only when some idiot decides that "rod" means like a REAL rod that breaks bones.

As far as these super-parents lecturing the rest of the world on how punishment is never necesarry...I wish I could live in your fantasy world for a while.

not only is it ineffective it isn't necessary at all not even once, not all these folks can have kids so heinous they need to be hit or punished????...yet post after post many are employing some form...its a cultural norm to punish and call it teaching.....that is what i am addressing and if the bible doesn't mean that then ther are a whole lots of relgious folks that have made a huge mistake...which i bet you aren't gonna get anyone to agree...

Thanks again for holding an opinion as fact, and blaming religion for all the woes of the world. This is why you folks have a little clique of hens that agree with you, because if anyone dares question your stand on a topic, they are bashed and ridiculed, however nicely you may couch it.

Sorry for implying you were trapped Iams, it seems you enter willingly, do your thing, and strut right out. Good for you. My apologies if I seemed to be implying anything negative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7

You know what guys........

As the saying goes, 'The proof is in the pudding'...... :tu:

What would be really cool is to have our kids post on here and rate us as parents.....I reckon they would all say that, they each have the best parent/s in the world.....My kids feel like that cause they know that they are adored and treasured and that mum and dad will always be by their side literally and figuratively,

speaking.....

It doesn't matter what everyone's methods are, the end result is healthy, happy and content little rascals......

Isn't that what we all want for our kids ?? :yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Radian

I'm sure we all agree to that... Yah!! :tu:

( & Mum, hope you're keep your feet elevated when you on that computer... ;) just saying....... )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaiTino

OK all the occasions that anyone of you people have given your children a little smack, can you relate as to the emotions you were feeling before and after you did it in relation to the childs behaviour and your response please, just out of interest, what were you feeling?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7
I'm sure we all agree to that... Yah!! :tu:

( & Mum, hope you're keep your feet elevated when you on that computer... ;) just saying....... )

Actually I don't Sunni and it's bad cause I've got really swollen varicose veins in my right leg......My shin and foot are blue and purple and all bumpy...... :cry:

OK all the occasions that anyone of you people have given your children a little smack, can you relate as to the emotions you were feeling before and after you did it in relation to the childs behaviour and your response please, just out of interest, what were you feeling?

Well firstly, before I get to the point of resorting to a smack, my child wouldn't respond to reasoning or any sort of comforting from me......Depending on what he/she wanted to do e.g. eating lollies just prior to dinner being served or not letting a sibling play with a particular toy, he/she would be spoken to but kids being kids, they sometimes get irritated if things don't go their way.......

So the tantrum/protest starts......Screaming, running around trying to grab toy off sibling or getting those lollies, basically getting themselves worked in a frenzy......Frustration sets in on my part because I've tried the reasoning and talking to but they're at the point of no return......That's when the smacking comes into the equation......With my kids, once they get smacked, they know mummy meant business and I immediately give them a reassuring hug until they have calmed down.......

At this stage, we have another talk and my child then does what they were originally told to do......I'm a very easy-going and placid person and I never smack just because I feel tired or in a bad mood.....I know many parents that do, due to a hard day at work or tiredness or whatever.......I know my parents did........For me personally, I resort to smacking when all else fails.....Having said that, I don't remember the last time I smacked any of my children and they're 10, 7.5, 4 & 2.....It's tricky trying to balance everyone's needs and wants, especially since we're a large family........No one is perfect but I do my best....... :)

Edited by MUM24/7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaiTino
Actually I don't Sunni and it's bad cause I've got really swollen varicose veins in my right leg......My shin and foot are blue and purple and all bumpy...... :cry:

Well firstly, before I get to the point of resorting to a smack, my child wouldn't respond to reasoning or any sort of comforting from me......Depending on what he/she wanted to do e.g. eating lollies just prior to dinner being served or not letting a sibling play with a particular toy, he/she would be spoken to but kids being kids, they sometimes get irritated if things don't go their way.......

So the tantrum/protest starts......Screaming, running around trying to grab toy off sibling or getting those lollies, basically getting themselves worked in a frenzy......Frustration sets in on my part because I've tried the reasoning and talking to but they're at the point of no return......That's when the smacking comes into the equation......With my kids, once they get smacked, they know mummy meant business and I immediately give them a reassuring hug until they have calmed down.......

At this stage, we have another talk and my child then does what they were originally told to do......I'm a very easy-going and placid person and I never smack just because I feel tired or in a bad mood.....I know many parents that do, due to a hard day at work or tiredness or whatever.......I know my parents did........For me personally, I resort to smacking when all else fails.....Having said that, I don't remember the last time I smacked any of my children and they're 10, 7.5, 4 & 2.....It's tricky trying to balance everyone's needs and wants, especially since we're a large family........No one is perfect but I do my best....... :)

Yes it sounds like you have a very balanced approach MUM, and although i would never ever do it myself, it doesnt mean it is definitively wrong, its just means i would never do it. There are plenty of people who will claim that they have grown up without any baggage from the traumers of childhood punishment, and to have not even experienced any traumer of child punishment.

This is the thing, you mentioned that you never smack when you feel "tired or in a bad mood" as though this was perhaps crossing a boundry. But yet earlier you said the key word for me with punishment. Frustration, which is a bad mood. "frustration sets in on my part because i've tried reasoning and talking to but their at the point of no return." ...which i also find similer to "but kids being kids, they sometimes get irritated if they dont get their own way".

You want them to listen to your reasoning, and as they arnt doing this, you arnt getting your way, you get frustrated and smack them. But the very issue you may get frustrated with is simply a reflection of yourself (their fighting from not getting their way or refusing to respond to demands), this is a paradox i see in punishment.

In psychology there is the frustration aggression hypothesis, that says that unachieved goals cause us to be frustrated which drips away into a container of tolerance until the occasion with which it overflows and results in aggression. What it points out that any aggressive action no matter how unsevere is actually a loss of control which i do not advocate, i do not advocate the loss of control over ones emotions, awareness and controlled expression is fine, but responding to them because we can no longer control ourselves is not something i can advocate.

But as i say, i do not judge people that smack their kids as "bad" because they do not see things the same way that i do, each to their own and all that, but the paradox in this makes no sense to me at all :wacko:

I also understand what a nightmare it can be when you have loads a tots making demands left right and center, even if you love them to peices.

Oh yeah, i been reading through this thread, and from all the comments, i've duduced that your having your 5th or 6th pretty soon? he he he GOOD LUCK with that MUM :tsu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7
This is the thing, you mentioned that you never smack when you feel "tired or in a bad mood" as though this was perhaps crossing a boundry. But yet earlier you said the key word for me with punishment. Frustration, which is a bad mood. "frustration sets in on my part because i've tried reasoning and talking to but their at the point of no return." ...which i also find similer to "but kids being kids, they sometimes get irritated if they dont get their own way".

You want them to listen to your reasoning, and as they arnt doing this, you arnt getting your way, you get frustrated and smack them. But the very issue you may get frustrated with is simply a reflection of yourself (their fighting from not getting their way or refusing to respond to demands), this is a paradox i see in punishment.

Oh yeah, i been reading through this thread, and from all the comments, i've duduced that your having your 5th or 6th pretty soon? he he he GOOD LUCK with that MUM :tsu:

LOL.....I knew you were setting me up for psyche 101 but that's okay.....Everyone has to answer for their actions..... :P:tu:

I'm expecting no: 5 and that's it for me.....After this, I'm closing up shop..... :lol:

I wont argue at all with your bolded statement.....It's very accurate and true but you have to understand that parents are emotional beings as well, we get frustrated because we know if our kids did what we asked of them in the first place, things wouldn't escalate to this point.......Toddlers especially, sometimes don't respond to reason or logic but they do feel the effects of a lil smack on their bottom...... :yes:

Anyway, to clarify my statement about being in a bad mood, I wouldn't smack my child because I got frustrated with my hubby or mother-in-law or whatever, frustration sets in when I can't get through to them any other way in that particular case......

I was wondering how would you handle this situation with your child since you don't believe in smacking ?? Sheri, I would appreciate your reply as well to this question ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Barek Halfhand

my nephew decided he was going to test my authority recently....the rod was not spared....sometimes thats all they understand.....B

not hard to tell who has kids and who doesn't here.....

Edited by Barek Halfhand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaiTino
LOL.....I knew you were setting me up for psyche 101 but that's okay.....Everyone has to answer for their actions..... :P:tu:

I'm expecting no: 5 and that's it for me.....After this, I'm closing up shop..... :lol:

I wont argue at all with your bolded statement.....It's very accurate and true but you have to understand that parents are emotional beings as well, we get frustrated because we know if our kids did what we asked of them in the first place, things wouldn't escalate to this point.......Toddlers especially, sometimes don't respond to reason or logic but they do feel the effects of a lil smack on their bottom...... :yes:

Anyway, to clarify my statement about being in a bad mood, I wouldn't smack my child because I got frustrated with my hubby or mother-in-law or whatever, frustration sets in when I can't get through to them any other way in that particular case......

I was wondering how would you handle this situation with your child since you don't believe in smacking ?? Sheri, I would appreciate your reply as well to this question ??

ha ha ha ha, yes you are DEFINATELY the expert....BLIMEY!! fifth??? he he he I think that once this smacking as a last resort type of punishment has started in rearing, its not really very easy to go down a different road because they have been taught what they should do when they reach their own limits, but for a blank slate firmly telling them to go to their room or escourting them there is what i might do. Being ignored is perhaps a harder punishment for a child to deal with within the moment than smacking for they require constant stimulation. If they punch or kick when being carried up to their room (if they refused) then i would just ignore it, to show them that their anger does not affect me so expressing it has no purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
OK all the occasions that anyone of you people have given your children a little smack, can you relate as to the emotions you were feeling before and after you did it in relation to the childs behaviour and your response please, just out of interest, what were you feeling?

Frankly, the emotions before and after greatly depend on the situation. (Again, please remember it's been approximately 5 years since either of my kids has received a spanking so remember this applied to a 6 or 7 year old):

If it was a spanking due to breaking a rule, something we had previously gone over and explained why they were not to do something or to do something, then there was a bit of frustration (not anger or even much frustration because everyone we learned from told us you don't wait until the 3rd or 4th time they disobey to spank, you do it the very 1st time, you don't give them warnings because then they learn they have 1 or two more attempts before they're "in trouble" you do it the first time they disobey after you've gone over the rule) and there would be a spanking and they knew they had disobeyed, because the very next thing we did was go over what rule they had disobeyed, and then later there would be a hug and/or kiss.

If it was a spanking because you caught them right before they did something life-threatening or which could cause them or others harm (my son was and is quite adventurous and either fearless or dumb not sure which) then there was quite a bit of fear as the precursor feeling to a spanking, and afterwards there was an explanation of what kind of harm what they had been about to do could have caused and usually some conversation about how to think through things before actually doing them--a threat assessment of sorts.

If it was a spanking due to overt rebellion (only remember a few incidents of this) then there was, rightfully so, some anger involved, if we were too angry--where we wanted to hurt--then the spanking would be set aside for later, (the majority of those we learned from think that a child who has engaged in a rebellious act needs to see some anger in their parents) although the lecture about rebellion was given immediately and the child was made aware there would be a spanking later once the parent had managed to calm down.

And yes, believe it or not neither my wife nor I are perfect *GASP!* so there were some spanking which were given in anger, anger generated from fear that we had been about to lose our child to a horrible accident, from frustration that this kid was openly and knowingly challenging the parent... it happens, and if you MUST make a big deal out of it, go ahead, the fact that I'm human will come as a surprise to no one and no matter what, I know and my children know that the overriding reason was love, if I did not love them I would not have cared enough to be angry. And I have all the proof I need here in my house that my children KNOW I love them and cherish them as the second biggest treasure I have (they know my wife is the first) and I know they love me right back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaiTino
Frankly, the emotions before and after greatly depend on the situation. (Again, please remember it's been approximately 5 years since either of my kids has received a spanking so remember this applied to a 6 or 7 year old):

If it was a spanking due to breaking a rule, something we had previously gone over and explained why they were not to do something or to do something, then there was a bit of frustration (not anger or even much frustration because everyone we learned from told us you don't wait until the 3rd or 4th time they disobey to spank, you do it the very 1st time, you don't give them warnings because then they learn they have 1 or two more attempts before they're "in trouble" you do it the first time they disobey after you've gone over the rule) and there would be a spanking and they knew they had disobeyed, because the very next thing we did was go over what rule they had disobeyed, and then later there would be a hug and/or kiss.

If it was a spanking because you caught them right before they did something life-threatening or which could cause them or others harm (my son was and is quite adventurous and either fearless or dumb not sure which) then there was quite a bit of fear as the precursor feeling to a spanking, and afterwards there was an explanation of what kind of harm what they had been about to do could have caused and usually some conversation about how to think through things before actually doing them--a threat assessment of sorts.

If it was a spanking due to overt rebellion (only remember a few incidents of this) then there was, rightfully so, some anger involved, if we were too angry--where we wanted to hurt--then the spanking would be set aside for later, (the majority of those we learned from think that a child who has engaged in a rebellious act needs to see some anger in their parents) although the lecture about rebellion was given immediately and the child was made aware there would be a spanking later once the parent had managed to calm down.

And yes, believe it or not neither my wife nor I are perfect *GASP!* so there were some spanking which were given in anger, anger generated from fear that we had been about to lose our child to a horrible accident, from frustration that this kid was openly and knowingly challenging the parent... it happens, and if you MUST make a big deal out of it, go ahead, the fact that I'm human will come as a surprise to no one and no matter what, I know and my children know that the overriding reason was love, if I did not love them I would not have cared enough to be angry. And I have all the proof I need here in my house that my children KNOW I love them and cherish them as the second biggest treasure I have (they know my wife is the first) and I know they love me right back.

I think its incredibly insightful of both you and MUM to explore this so openly, but again, you are drawing some sort of boundry that if it is done out of anger then this might be judged as "bad". To be honest, i think it would be more frightening if it was done out of joy, which i only know too well.

The point is, you stated that you may have been frustrated, or were angry as a result of your fears that something bad might happen to your child, which is perfectly understandable, but the act of smacking or any physical enforcement is and can only be aggression, and aggressive action. As the psychological model i spoke of earlier pointed out, it is a loss of control.

Becasue aggression serves a purpose (fear) it is too often attributed to be something that gains control from an outward perspective, but not enough attention goes into the fact that actually, there is no control gained, because the forfeit is on the aggressor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MUM24/7
ha ha ha ha, yes you are DEFINATELY the expert....BLIMEY!! fifth??? he he he I think that once this smacking as a last resort type of punishment has started in rearing, its not really very easy to go down a different road because they have been taught what they should do when they reach their own limits, but for a blank slate firmly telling them to go to their room or escourting them there is what i might do. Being ignored is perhaps a harder punishment for a child to deal with within the moment than smacking for they require constant stimulation. If they punch or kick when being carried up to their room (if they refused) then i would just ignore it, to show them that their anger does not affect me so expressing it has no purpose.

nn matey, from your post, I assume you don't have any kids ?? If you have, please forgive me...... :blush:

Just by you saying, 'i might do' shows me you're not a mummy yet......Believe me when I tell you nothing prepares you for parenthood and everything you learn from well-meaning books goes out the window, when faced with the reality of raising your own children........

Iams, I hear you :tu::yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
I think its incredibly insightful of both you and MUM to explore this so openly, but again, you are drawing some sort of boundry that if it is done out of anger then this might be judged as "bad". To be honest, i think it would be more frightening if it was done out of joy, which i only know too well.

The point is, you stated that you may have been frustrated, or were angry as a result of your fears that something bad might happen to your child, which is perfectly understandable, but the act of smacking or any physical enforcement is and can only be aggression, and aggressive action. As the psychological model i spoke of earlier pointed out, it is a loss of control.

Becasue aggression serves a purpose (fear) it is too often attributed to be something that gains control from an outward perspective, but not enough attention goes into the fact that actually, there is no control gained, because the forfeit is on the aggressor.

nn, I appreciate what you're saying, but I must disagree with the "psychological model" you speak of. It obviously is very one dimensional as it seems to deal with an issue that is always fraught with many complex emotions and responses from a pre-determined conclusion: smacking (your word, I used spanking) is obviously bad and harmful. When you start with this as your predetermination, then any act that fits into the model MUST be purely aggression and MUST be completely harmful with absolutely no redeeming qualities. This type of logic works great when you want to insure you arrive at the conclusion you want, but since I have generations-worth of data with real-life people living successfully who have absolute love and respect for the parents that cared enough to spank and discipline them, it's kind of hard to take it seriously.

Are there people who go too far and end up only causing harm physically and emotionally? You bet there are.

Are there people who use the excuse that they are simply allowing their child to be the person they were meant to be to hide their complete lack of love and regard for the child they brought into the world? You bet there are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaiTino
nn matey, from your post, I assume you don't have any kids ?? If you have, please forgive me...... :blush:

Just by you saying, 'i might do' shows me you're not a mummy yet......Believe me when I tell you nothing prepares you for parenthood and everything you learn from well-meaning books goes out the window, when faced with the reality of raising your own children........

Iams, I hear you :tu::yes:

ha haaaa, yes thats what i meant when i said that you are the expert, no i have not had kids, but i have fostered in the past.

nn, I appreciate what you're saying, but I must disagree with the "psychological model" you speak of. It obviously is very one dimensional as it seems to deal with an issue that is always fraught with many complex emotions and responses from a pre-determined conclusion: smacking (your word, I used spanking) is obviously bad and harmful. When you start with this as your predetermination, then any act that fits into the model MUST be purely aggression and MUST be completely harmful with absolutely no redeeming qualities. This type of logic works great when you want to insure you arrive at the conclusion you want, but since I have generations-worth of data with real-life people living successfully who have absolute love and respect for the parents that cared enough to spank and discipline them, it's kind of hard to take it seriously.

Are there people who go too far and end up only causing harm physically and emotionally? You bet there are.

Are there people who use the excuse that they are simply allowing their child to be the person they were meant to be to hide their complete lack of love and regard for the child they brought into the world? You bet there are.

And Iamson, i think you may have missed some of the things i said in my post to MUM, but they apply to you also. Although i would never ever do it myself, it doesnt mean it is definitively wrong, it just means i would never do it. There are plenty of people who will claim that they have grown up without any baggage from the traumers of childhood punishment, and to have not even experienced any traumer of child punishment.

The frustration aggression hypothesis only draws conclusion that unachieved goals (e.g misbehaved children) leads to frustration which leads to aggression which is a loss of control. It does not conclude that kids will end up being messed up from having physical punishments. This is not the point i am trying to argue, whether they are messed up or not is not the issue. My issue is with agression itself, with anybody, how can we advocate something which we do not advocate? LMAO are you saying aggression is good?

Heres a lovely quote from Gandhi...who i might add had children of his own.

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.

Literally speaking, ahimsa means non-violence towards life but it has much higher meaning. It means that you may not offend anybody; you may not harbor uncharitable thought, even in connection with those whom you consider your enemies. To one who follows this doctrine, there are no enemies. A man who believes in the efficacy of this doctrine finds in the ultimate stage, when he is about to reach the goal, the whole world at his feet. If you express your love—ahimsa—in such a manner that it impresses itself indelibly upon your so-called enemy, he must return that love.

This doctrine tells us that we may guard the honor of those under our charge by delivering our own lives into the hands of the man who would commit the sacrilege. And that requires far greater courage than delivering of blows.

Ahimsa or non-injury, of course, implies non-killing. But, non-injury is not merely non-killing. In its comprehensive meaning, ahimsa or non-injury means entire abstinence from causing any pain or harm to another living being, either by thought, word, or deed. Non-injury requires a harmless mind, mouth, and hand.

This is a man that won a whole nations independance with ahimsa (non-violence) yet there are people who can not raise their children without raising their hand also. This is not a judgment, i have not said that people who physically punish are bad people and i do not think they are, i just disagree with it. I think the example of Gandhi highlights a point that people dont give themselves enough credit in their abilities to do things without physical resorts and still reap rewards, on the contrary, i feel that even greater rewards can be reaped with ahimsa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IamsSon
ha haaaa, yes thats what i meant when i said that you are the expert, no i have not had kids, but i have fostered in the past.

How old were the kids you fostered? What kind of homes did they come from?

And Iamson, i think you may have missed some of the things i said in my post to MUM, but they apply to you also. Although i would never ever do it myself, it doesnt mean it is definitively wrong, it just means i would never do it. There are plenty of people who will claim that they have grown up without any baggage from the traumers of childhood punishment, and to have not even experienced any traumer of child punishment.
Does this imply you don't believe their claim?

The frustration aggression hypothesis only draws conclusion that unachieved goals (e.g misbehaved children) leads to frustration which leads to aggression which is a loss of control. It does not conclude that kids will end up being messed up from having physical punishments. This is not the point i am trying to argue, whether they are messed up or not is not the issue. My issue is with agression itself, with anybody, how can we advocate something which we do not advocate? LMAO are you saying aggression is good?
LMAO, no I'm claiming that corporal punishment as one part of a whole catalog of actions and practices intended to insure discipline is good.

Heres a lovely quote from Gandhi...who i might add had children of his own.

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.

Literally speaking, ahimsa means non-violence towards life but it has much higher meaning. It means that you may not offend anybody; you may not harbor uncharitable thought, even in connection with those whom you consider your enemies. To one who follows this doctrine, there are no enemies. A man who believes in the efficacy of this doctrine finds in the ultimate stage, when he is about to reach the goal, the whole world at his feet. If you express your love—ahimsa—in such a manner that it impresses itself indelibly upon your so-called enemy, he must return that love.

This doctrine tells us that we may guard the honor of those under our charge by delivering our own lives into the hands of the man who would commit the sacrilege. And that requires far greater courage than delivering of blows.

Ahimsa or non-injury, of course, implies non-killing. But, non-injury is not merely non-killing. In its comprehensive meaning, ahimsa or non-injury means entire abstinence from causing any pain or harm to another living being, either by thought, word, or deed. Non-injury requires a harmless mind, mouth, and hand.

This is a man that won a whole nations independance with ahimsa (non-violence) yet there are people who can not raise their children without raising their hand also. This is not a judgment, i have not said that people who physically punish are bad people and i do not think they are, i just disagree with it. I think the example of Gandhi highlights a point that people dont give themselves enough credit in their abilities to do things without physical resorts and still reap rewards, on the contrary, i feel that even greater rewards can be reaped with ahimsa.

This is also a man that slept with naked teenage girls, spent part of his morning being massaged naked by teenage girls, who dictated every minute of his disciples days, "and not only every morsel of food they should eat but when they should eat it. Without ever having heard of a protein or a vitamin, he considered himself an expert on diet, as on most things, and was constantly experimenting." SOURCE

Yes, ahisma may be what he practiced later in life, along with a couple of other less often named practices, but it seems he may have been quite invested in violence earlier in his life, going as far as earning decorations for suppressing a Zulu uprising.

I prefer to follow the example of people I know, some of who grew up in homes where they were horribly abused both physically and emotionally and who still managed to be loving parents, who understood the importance of discipline guided by love.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.