spare the rod ..spoil the child

[Beckys_Mom]

I agree with you MUM, until I became an adult and started dealing with other people outside my family and my parents' circle of friends, I was unaware there were kids who grew up being so horribly abused and it just makes me sick!

OMG me too...growing up as a kid myself, I never knew how bad others had it...talking about sexual abuse ect...I was so green to it all

[Beckys_Mom]

I believe in limited swats at an early age. Not full on spanking. After that, taking away of privelages or things seems to do the trick. I live in a high dollar area, and the majority of children or spoiled rotten. We are actually going to move because of it because of the influence on our 14 year old.

ohh that is understandable Eric...I hate to see a bunch of no good spoilt brats running around..annoying others, and their parents letting them away with blue murder..it sickens me

a good kick up the back side is needed for both parents!!!

[MUM24/7]

ha haaaa, yes thats what i meant when i said that you are the expert, no i have not had kids, but i have fostered in the past.

I'm no expert but thanks anyway...... Being a foster mum is even harder IMO, so I applaud you for that......

Heres a lovely quote from Gandhi...who i might add had children of his own.

I'm no expert on Gandhi either but I wonder if he actually had a hand in raising his kids or was it left to the mother ??

It's a nice quote though.......

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

spare the rod ..spoil the child, is this biblical advice harming humainty

That's the title of the thread, and as usual it's derailed.

Is it harming humanity? Only when some idiot decides that "rod" means like a REAL rod that breaks bones.

As far as these super-parents lecturing the rest of the world on how punishment is never necesarry...I wish I could live in your fantasy world for a while.

Thanks again for holding an opinion as fact, and blaming religion for all the woes of the world. This is why you folks have a little clique of hens that agree with you, because if anyone dares question your stand on a topic, they are bashed and ridiculed, however nicely you may couch it.

Sorry for implying you were trapped Iams, it seems you enter willingly, do your thing, and strut right out. Good for you. My apologies if I seemed to be implying anything negative.

Thankyou. It is as if a person must agree with her or that person is an idiot. She cares only for her beliefs.

And as far as having a bad child hood, I had one of the worse. I don't use it for sympathay to make my points like a certain individual.

[IamsSon]

Sorry for implying you were trapped Iams, it seems you enter willingly, do your thing, and strut right out. Good for you. My apologies if I seemed to be implying anything negative.

No apologies necessary, gumby

[Moondoggy]

this is interesting then why are so many punishing their kids??? when not only is it ineffective it isn't nesscecary at all not even once, not all these folks can have kids so heinous they need to be hit or punished????...yet post after post many are employing some form...its a cultural norm to punish and call it teaching.....that is what i am addressing and if the bible doesn't mean that then ther are a whole lots of relgious folks that have made a huge mistake...which i bet you aren't gonna get anyone to agree...can the behavioral sciences be in error.... there are laws in most states that do not allow children to be hit or yelled at now..Now unless you are turned in chances are you can smack your kids but if you get turned in you are looking at aprenting classes and therapy..its not considered loving behavior.....

i knew of a man that felt it was his right to hit his kid till CPS showed up and the man tryed ot deter them with a shot gun whcih just further showed his ineffective parentiing skills the man would not be able to be around his child for a year and had to do some intensive parenting and anger managment classes..for the naysayers that say its their right to punish... news flash child protective services says otherwise......

It is quite simple Sheri. Not be ego-maniacal here, but having seen the vast difference between western and eastern "christianity" it sent me into the field of biblical research. The reason they do is because they do not understand the "customs" of the east. So they have horrible translations of the bible and make error their doctrine. The bible is an eastern book and must be understood in that setting. Sheri, let's have a moment of fun here for a moment. Please read if you will one verse in Romans 12:20. Tell me what you think this verse means especially the latter part of that verse. Then I will share with you what the eastern custom is regarding this is and it will unlock the difficulty of the translation. The reason I chose this verse is because nary any two theogians can agree on it's meaning. It will be fun.

[IamsSon]

It is quite simple Sheri. Not be ego-maniacal here, but having seen the vast difference between western and eastern "christianity" it sent me into the field of biblical research. The reason they do is because they do not understand the "customs" of the east. So they have horrible translations of the bible and make error their doctrine. The bible is an eastern book and must be understood in that setting. Sheri, let's have a moment of fun here for a moment. Please read if you will one verse in Romans 12:20. Tell me what you think this verse means especially the latter part of that verse. Then I will share with you what the eastern custom is regarding this is and it will unlock the difficulty of the translation. The reason I chose this verse is because nary any two theogians can agree on it's meaning. It will be fun.

20On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."(Romans 12:20)

I think you'll find few parents who spank their children as part of teaching discipline who consider their children enemies. Do you consider your children to be your enemies?

The whole easter and western Christianity thing sounds interesting, but I don't discipline my children just because I'm a Christian, I do so because I want them to be responsible adults and I believe as a parent it is my duty to insure my children do not grow up to be burdens on society.

[glorybebe]

my nephew decided he was going to test my authority recently....the rod was not spared....sometimes thats all they understand.....B

not hard to tell who has kids and who doesn't here.....

Exactly. People who are not parents cannot give an accurate opinion when they haven't been there. I always said I would NEVER spank my child(ren). BUT, the reality of the situation is that I WILL NOT let any harm come to my child because I wanted to not teach them properly what the dangers are of the world.

I hate to see a bunch of no good spoiled brats running around..annoying others, and their parents letting them away with blue murder..it sickens me

a good kick up the back side is needed for both parents!!!

These parent don't love their children enough to protect them. When I was waitressing I almost dumped a pot of hot coffee on a child who's parents would let him run wild in the restaurant. He tripped me, and I was able to keep a hold of the pot, but it was close. So, by not disciplining him, they really were endangering him. I don't see how anyone can see that differently- a spanking or 3rd degree buns. And yes, the parents needed slapped up the head for not caring enough to protect their baby. They were too self serving by talking, smoking and drinking their coffee. Parenting is 24/7 like MUM says. You chose the job, do it.

[MaiTino]

How old were the kids you fostered? What kind of homes did they come from?

They mainly came from travellers sites. I looked after a 3 year old for 10 months, a 7 year old for a year or so and a 11 year old for about 3 years.

Does this imply you don't believe their claim?

I neither believe nor disbelieve, it is just a claim.

This is also a man that slept with naked teenage girls, spent part of his morning being massaged naked by teenage girls, who dictated every minute of his disciples days, "and not only every morsel of food they should eat but when they should eat it. Without ever having heard of a protein or a vitamin, he considered himself an expert on diet, as on most things, and was constantly experimenting." SOURCE

Yes, Richard Grenia, theres quite a well rounded reference of his character and works in wikipedia, seems like a friendly sort of fellow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Grenier

Did you think by refering to Gandhi i was trying to idolise him in some way? I think this article and what you say brings even more value to my point. This guy was not a saint, he even speaks of many of the things which he did to his regret in his autobiography. This makes for an even stronger argument that physical punishment/violence is not needed to bring situations under control, it is not something that only a "saint" can do, but an ordinary human who has made their mistakes in life can turn things around and make such a difference without violence, whether we percieve the results or justifications today as good or bad, he managed to lead people without violence. If where he led them was the wrong place or not, it was their choice to follow him there. I think it is quite remarkable, and highlights that if 100's of thousands/millions of people can be led in this way, then why not the 2.5 children? I'm not talking about teaching them to spin with spinning wheels and starve themselves, simply rearing them without violence.

Yes, ahisma may be what he practiced later in life, along with a couple of other less often named practices, but it seems he may have been quite invested in violence earlier in his life, going as far as earning decorations for suppressing a Zulu uprising.

What if i was to tell you that earlier on in my life i was a prostitute*? would that make me a **** even if i had become a nun right now? What if i had an abortion early on in life*? Does that devalue my preachings against abortion now? ....Should you devalue a persons "good" work because they have done "bad" things previously? Is this an attitude the Bible would advocate????????

I prefer to follow the example of people I know, some of who grew up in homes where they were horribly abused both physically and emotionally and who still managed to be loving parents, who understood the importance of discipline guided by love.

To describe my understanding, physical discipline is guided by anger not love, biological love does not guide and we should not expect it too.

I have watched, experienced and learnd.

*I have never been payed for sex or been pregnant.

NICE ONE!!!

nn23

Edited May 5, 2007 by nn23

[Beckys_Mom]

Thankyou. It is as if a person must agree with her or that person is an idiot. She cares only for her beliefs.

And as far as having a bad child hood, I had one of the worse. I don't use it for sympathay to make my points like a certain individual.

Sends Eric a virtual hug (((((((HUGS))))))) I fully understand about nighmare childhoods...trust me

[IamsSon]

They mainly came from travellers sites. I looked after a 3 year old for 10 months, a 7 year old for a year or so and a 11 year old for about 3 years.

Wow! That's really interesting, I'm not sure I would be able to foster kids... I think I would grow too attached.

I neither believe nor disbelieve, it is just a claim.

Yes, Richard Grenia, theres quite a well rounded reference of his character and works in wikipedia, seems like a friendly sort of fellow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Grenier

Are you saying the information is incorrect?

Did you think by refering to Gandhi i was trying to idolise him in some way? I think this article and what you say brings even more value to my point. This guy was not a saint, he even speaks of many of the things which he did to his regret in his autobiography. This makes for an even stronger argument that physical punishment/violence is not needed to bring situations under control, it is not something that only a "saint" can do, but an ordinary human who has made their mistakes in life can turn things around and make such a difference without violence, whether we percieve the results or justifications today as good or bad, he managed to lead people without violence. If where he led them was the wrong place or not, it was their choice to follow him there. I think it is quite remarkable, and highlights that if 100's of thousands/millions of people can be led in this way, then why not the 2.5 children? I'm not talking about teaching them to spin with spinning wheels and starve themselves, simply rearing them without violence.

What if i was to tell you that earlier on in my life i was a prostitute*? would that make me a **** even if i had become a nun right now? What if i had an abortion early on in life*? Does that devalue my preachings against abortion now? ....Should you devalue a persons "good" work because they have done "bad" things previously? Is this an attitude the Bible would advocate????????

No, it would not necessarily devalue it, but it should cause someone to take a closer look if while you were becoming a nun you were still taking crack, or if while you were preaching against abortion you were seducing little boys, don' you think?

To describe my understanding, physical discipline is guided by anger not love, biological love does not guide and we should not expect it too.

To describe my experience, physical punishment (not beatings or abuse) is used quite often by loving parents to raise children who become loving, responsible, respectful adults.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Sends Eric a virtual hug (((((((HUGS))))))) I fully understand about nighmare childhoods...trust me

Thankyou kind miss.

[Beckys_Mom]

Thankyou kind miss.

np kind sir

[hyperactive]

son #1 scoffs my post, and then goes on to prove my point.

[MaiTino]

Wow! That's really interesting, I'm not sure I would be able to foster kids... I think I would grow too attached.

ha haaa, yeah, i still love em, but you move on, the older one i still see now and again but he travels alot. The younger one is with her mum again and the middle one is also back with his mum. I just see as a period in my life. But my relationship with them, even the three year old was more that of a protective elder sister than a parent which made the dynamic of our relationship very different, with less requirment for punishment because as far as i was concerned they were in the same boat as me.

I neither believe nor disbelieve, it is just a claim.

Yes, Richard Grenia, theres quite a well rounded reference of his character and works in wikipedia, seems like a friendly sort of fellow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Grenier Are you saying the information is incorrect?

Were you saying that Gandhi's teachings and examples were to be ignored based upon the accounts of a man who is reported to have made anti Hindu attacks and regard them as lower animals within an internationally reknowned website?

When information can not be referenced they always stick a note in asking for citation. There was no request for citation in this statement that was basically saying that Richard Grenier was a complete racist. While this does not prove fact that the information is incorrect it renders the whole article unreliable on grounds of bias, although there were some things within what i read that i recognised from Gandhi's autobiography, he was quite aware of his failings.

No, it would not necessarily devalue it, but it should cause someone to take a closer look if while you were becoming a nun you were still taking crack, or if while you were preaching against abortion you were seducing little boys, don' you think?

Yes but if i wasnt, then who are you to judge? Taking the roleplay further still what makes you think i even did crack* in the first place??? do all prostitutes do crack??? Same goes for the seducing boys...do all people who preach against abortion seduce little boys???

To describe my experience, physical punishment (not beatings or abuse) is used quite often by loving parents to raise children who become loving, responsible, respectful adults.

I never said it wasnt ...infact i am sure i highlighted this point in previous posts, i am not making judgments about people who physically punish their kids or saying that they end up completely messed up from physical punishment. But i do not agree with it and would never advocate or do it myself.

NICE ONE!!!

nn23

*this is with reference to the role play, i am COMPLETELY!!! against crack

Edited May 5, 2007 by nn23

[Beckys_Mom]

son #1 scoffs my post, and then goes on to prove my point.

hmm wonder if IAMS has noticed this himself.....can you point it out??

[Jim88]

spare the rod spoil the child.. But really what does this mean and what are the implications of punishing as a means to correct undesirable behaviors, from the homes of those that use this method as a parent to to the prisons and laws of a society are we solving the issues we have or are we firmly rooting them in our human physche to our own detrement????....

discuss......

as a humnaity our focus is towards punsihing behaviors to change them , it is thought and its really a tradition that punishing corrects behaviors, its almost a rite of passage ......

yet from a objective view it seems that the observable proof that punishing does nothing to change behavior is loud and clear.

yet .we continue to put alot of energy into societal problems with the same energy that has created them to begin with....

are we in too deep????.

Spanking works with a child. That's what that verse refers to. I don't think spanking should be the only means of disciplining a child, but a last resort. When other forms of discipline don't work a spanking will work.

As far as punishing people for criminal behavior goes you can't just let them get a way with it. Society has to do something with murders, rapists, and other human predators. Punishing them may not straighten them all out, but nobody has found a better way. If you don't punish them they're all just going to comit the crimes again. There has to be consequences for breaking the law. What else is society going to do with criminals besides punishing them? How else can society hope to change their behavior?

[Michelle]

Something was brought up that I'd like to explore. It is a widely considered fact that abusive parents make their kids abusive parents and I don't think that's altogether true. A lot of people go to the opposite extreme, as we've seen here. They were brought up scared to death of a parent or both parents so they have almost no discipline for their own children. This is true of one of my best friends. She was scared of her Father's verbal abuse, which wasn't bad compared to what my Mother doled out on me physically and verbally, and cringed every time he came home. Now that she has kids, she has gone so far to the opposite extreme that I can't stand to see her or her kids and most other people can't either. Her oldest child is 14 and we haven't been able to see each other since that child was two because she was such a brat and got into everything that they were no longer allowed in my house. She has a total of three now and I can't even stand to go and see her at her house because they are constantly pushing the limits far beyond my patience.

I myself, opted not to have children, because I practically raised a child from the time he was a newborn when I was ten. I'm having my first real childhood now. neener

[IamsSon]

Yes, Michelle it does seem that many who are abused use it as an excuse to be abusers themselves while others use it as an excuse to allow their rugrats to run wild. Fortunately for me, not all victims of abuse choose to use their circumstances as permission to be either abusive or passive, but actually use their brain and common sense to make the proper decisions. I have said in other thread that my father grew up in a very abusive home, a home where reaching for something on the table at the same time my grandfather thought of reaching for the same thing resulted in being knocked away from the table with a vicious backhand to the face, where the firstborn was completely blameless despite the situation so someone else took the beating. My father says that when he was 12, he realized this was NOT the proper way to be a parent and decided then and there that he would be a good parent to his children, to find a woman who wanted to be a good wife an loving mother to marry. This DECISION had led to a wonderful blessing in my life, the lives of my sister and brothers, the lives of our spouses and of our children. Decision, the only mature action that can be taken. Yes, we are ALL affected by our environment, but how we USE the experiences is what differentiates a VICTIM from an ADULT. I'm not saying being a victim is not horrible, I know it is. My father has shared many stories with us about the abuse he suffered, but like BM, he chose not to let that abuse completely keep him from making the proper decision, just like BM has decided that what is best for Becky is for her to be a loving Mom, who out of love provides the proper discipline for Becky. I have been very touched by the things people have shared on this thread... I am still so upset about the horrible abuse Sheri and her sister suffered, but I have to say that I have been very encouraged by BM and others who have acknowledged they too were beaten but have not allowed themselves to use that abuse as an excuse.

Edited May 5, 2007 by IamsSon

[+Sherapy]

son #1 scoffs my post, and then goes on to prove my point.

I noticed that too doc..... Classic text book stuff .. oy vey....nevermind....

Again son you do not need to parent by punishing at all and it doesn't teach what you think it is... *shrugs*

Moondoggy i would be curious in the easter translation to the scripture..it doesn't jump out at me the first part sort of we are all one but I don't know about the last line the burning coals..thanks for adding a twist to the thread...love it...

Also i actually agree with you on the spare the rod spoil the child i too felt it was misconstrued alot as most biblical understandings.. it caters to a certain mentality.....Oh before some get all freaked out it wasnt' an insult....

Michelle you brought in a great point many who have had heinous childhoods are some of the leading voices in a natural organic love based parenting. sort of like those that suffered slavery started the civil rights movement ..they too were all bashed too very common for the ones who change things, goes wth the territory .....As a hair stylist and meeting all kinds of people ( the last 17 years) i have noted the same thing..... i have been inspired by them and know many amazing parents who find it vile to punish and call themselves parents.... ..also i know many who aren't parents that should be such as hyperactive, GW... ..... when we are guiding a child we are shaping the future....IMO few really look at parenting that deeply...

sunni thanks sweetie for your very wise words, even though this isnt' your favorite threads.....

Mum thankyou for your very kind words and as i have said ew have shared alot and you are awesome and one of the most loved on here by all....I have nothing but resepct for you....

hey Sis *waves*

Barek, thanks for your thoughts ...

Edited May 5, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[Michelle]

You don't think it's "organic love based parenting' that makes children so obnoxious no one can stand to have them at their house, a good thing? I know several people that don't have anything to do with her anymore because of out of her control kids.

[+Sherapy]

I am still so upset about the horrible abuse Sheri and her sister suffered, but I have to say that I have been very encouraged by BM and others who have acknowledged they too were beaten but have not allowed themselves to use that abuse as an excuse.

why be upset that serves noone....son heart my courage and willingness to be the differnce, even my parents do and have learned alot themselves..i am not a victum..there may very well come a tiime when no child will ever be harmed by a parent for any reason..its moving that way.. change takes time but its changing and its these folks that have transcended it that are changing things......we have put up a measuring stick and said lets raise the standard on parenting , you really want to benefit society, question the values and have the courage to let go and try another way...

i shared my story and sunni hers and NN and Becky not to elicit pity but to show the face of courage and the human spirit and that love is the only choice in guiding a child there is no other choice ....your gonna be grandfather one day and see alot diffenrtly and maybe then you to will say i get what they were saying it doesn't matter when you it only matters that you will..my parents grew, beckys Dad grrew and so will you...

[IamsSon]

Again son you do not need to parent by punishing at all and it doesn't teach what you think it is... *shrugs*

Didn't you say earlier that you were just giving your opinion and not judging how others raise their children? I'm fairly sure you said that.

I'm just asking.... by now you can see i make no judgments i donot see in right or wrong , but i'd like to delve into this with you...

Sheri, it's very obvious that you are judging, you do believe that ONLY you know how to raise children. Come on, Sheri, we all know you are trying to show that those of us who spank (not beat senseless like you were beaten, but spank on the butt) are cruel and stupid parents, so just admit it and be done with it. No one is buying you're whole, "I'm not judging and just sharing" BS so, just be honest.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Didn't you say earlier that you were just giving your opinion and not judging how others raise their children? I'm fairly sure you said that.

Sheri, it's very obvious that you are judging, you do believe that ONLY you know how to raise children. Come on, Sheri, we all know you are trying to show that those of us who spank (not beat senseless like you were beaten, but spank on the butt) are cruel and stupid parents, so just admit it and be done with it. No one is buying you're whole, "I'm not judging and just sharing" BS so, just be honest.

Judgement is all she does. Not with just this issue either.

Thank you so much Iam. I thought I was the only one seeing the obvious.

Edited May 5, 2007 by Eric Raven The Skeptic

[IamsSon]

I am still so upset about the horrible abuse Sheri and her sister suffered, but I have to say that I have been very encouraged by BM and others who have acknowledged they too were beaten but have not allowed themselves to use that abuse as an excuse.

why be upset that serves noone....son heart my courage and willingness to be the differnce, even my parents do and have learned alot themselves..i am not a victum..there may very well come a tiime when no child will ever be harmed by a parent for any reason..its moving that way.. change takes time but its changing and its these folks that have transcended it that are changing things......we have put up a measuring stick and said lets raise the standard on parenting , you really want to benefit society, question the values and have the courage to let go and try another way...

i shared my story and sunni hers and NN and Becky not to elicit pity but to show the face of courage and the human spirit and that love is the only choice in guiding a child there is no other choice ....your gonna be grandfather one day and see alot diffenrtly and maybe then you to will say i get what they were saying it doesn't matter when you it only matters that you will..my parents grew, beckys Dad grrew and so will you...

I hope it did not come across as pity, I don't think any of you want that, I was expressing my personal feelings of anger and concern as a parent.