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Turkey rejects Islamic government


supercar

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April 29, 2007

ISTANBUL, Turkey --Some 700,000 Turks waving the red national flag flooded central Istanbul on Sunday to demand the resignation of the government, saying the Islamic roots of Turkey's leaders threatened to destroy the country's modern foundations.

Like the protesters -- who gathered for the second large anti-government demonstration in two weeks -- Turkey's powerful secular military has accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of tolerating radical Islamic circles.

"They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages," said 63-year-old Ahmet Yurdakul, a retired government employee who attended the protest.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...ted_government/

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April 29, 2007

ISTANBUL, Turkey --Some 700,000 Turks waving the red national flag flooded central Istanbul on Sunday to demand the resignation of the government, saying the Islamic roots of Turkey's leaders threatened to destroy the country's modern foundations.

Like the protesters -- who gathered for the second large anti-government demonstration in two weeks -- Turkey's powerful secular military has accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of tolerating radical Islamic circles.

"They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages," said 63-year-old Ahmet Yurdakul, a retired government employee who attended the protest.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...ted_government/

linked-image

Is this the same Government that with the backing of the US led the horrendous campaign against the Kurds and committed all the Human Rights abuses and attrocities and so forth? See supercar, that is one reason we are not percieved well in the Mid East. Not because of our Freedom, but because we prop up dictators and human rights violators. Saudia Arabia comes to mind. and of course, support Israel.

http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol4/v4n16turk.html

Key Points

* Turkey has long topped the list of U.S. arms importers and recipients of U.S. military aid.

* U.S. arms transfers support the Turkish army to the detriment of Turkey’s fledgling democracy.

* Turkey has launched a major military modernization project and will be seeking even greater quantities of U.S. arms.

Key Problems

* Turkey does not meet basic U.S. criteria for arms exports, nor those outlined by the State Department specifically for the attack helicopter sale.

* Turkish forces have used U.S. arms to commit human rights abuses, and the U.S. government does not have the ability to prevent future arms exports from being used in this manner.

* Stability—both within Turkey and in the region—is undermined by high levels of U.S. arms exports.

The December 1997 State Department agreement to link an export license to human rights improvements would signal—if implemented—respect for international human rights law. It would also bring U.S. policy in line with Section 502B of the Foreign Assistance Act, which states that weapons may not be provided to any country "the government of which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." The State Department’s annual human rights reports have

documented Turkey’s flagrant human rights abuses year after year in a pattern that is clearly gross and consistent. Arms exports to Turkey also contravene President Clinton’s Presidential Decision Directive (PDD) 34, issued in February 1995, which directs the State Department to factor into arms export decisions the impact of an export on regional stability and on human rights and democracy in the recipient state.

Turkey has also regressed or made little progress on the human rights criteria the State Department laid out for the attack helicopter sale. The cultural and linguistic rights of Kurds are still repressed, and the "state of emergency" continues in six of the nine southeast provinces. Torture continues with impunity, and Turkey has one of the world’s highest numbers of imprisoned journalists.

As the 1998 State Department Human Rights report for Turkey states: "Despite Prime Minister Yilmaz’s stated commitment that human rights would be his government’s highest priority in 1998, serious human rights abuses continued….Extrajudicial killings,

including deaths in detention from the excessive use of force, ‘mystery killings,’ and disappearances continued. Torture remained widespread…. Security forces continued to use arbitrary arrest and detention. Prolonged pretrial detention and lengthy trials continued to be problems."

According to an April 1999 Human Rights Watch report, journalists risk fines, imprisonment, bans, or violent attacks if they write about such subjects as "the role of Islam in politics and society, Turkey’s ethnic Kurdish Minority, the conflict in southeastern Turkey, or the proper role of the military in government and society." At present, many journalists, prominent human rights leaders, and Kurdish and Islamic political leaders—including members of parliament—are in prison for violating ambiguous laws against inciting "racial" or "religious hatred" or for issuing "separatist" propaganda. The arrest of PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan provided an excuse to once again lash out against those calling for a peaceful end to the war.

Intimidation tactics marred the April 1999 national and local elections, leaving interim Prime Minister Ecevit’s nationalist Democratic Left Party (DSP) with the most seats in parliament. The only remaining legal Kurdish party, the Peoples’ Democratic Party (HADEP), faced an imminent ban, and thousands of HADEP members—including its leader and several electoral candidates—were detained prior to the elections. Members of the Islamic Virtue party were also harassed and jailed. Turkey’s chief prosecutor is now seeking to close the Virtue party after a newly elected female Virtue parliamentarian insisted on wearing a head scarf inside parliament chambers.

U.S. weapons transfers not only provide tacit support for these repressive policies, but have also been used directly by military and police forces to commit human rights abuses, as documented by both Human Rights Watch and the U.S. State Department. In a campaign to root out local Kurdish support for the PKK, U.S.-supplied attack helicopters, jets, tanks, and armored personnel carriers have been used to destroy over 3,000 Kurdish villages. U.S.-origin small arms have been used in the extrajudicial killing of suspected PKK soldiers or sympathizers, and American-made utility helicopters have been used to transport soldiers on these missions. After the Ocalan arrest, the Turkish military heightened its attacks on the PKK, both in Turkey and across the border into northern Iraq. Turkey’s renewed faith in the ability to win the war probably encourages the military to continue using indiscriminate and disproportionate force, though Turkish authorities have prevented U.S. officials and international human rights groups from monitoring their activities in the region.

The war with the PKK also carries repercussions for stability in the region and within Turkey, both of which adversely affect U.S. security interests. The CIA’s 1997 "State Failure Task Force" report identified Turkey as a nation in danger of collapse. The military’s heavy-handed, destabilizing role in domestic politics can only be justified as long as the war continues. The conflict has also created entrenched governmental corruption, touching all central political actors in Ankara.

By flooding the Aegean region with high-tech arms, the U.S. has also fueled an arms race between Turkey and Greece and exacerbated their fractious relationship. Time and time again, Turkey has provoked Greece by flying over its airspace and entering its territorial

waters, and it has flown F-16s over southern Cyprus in violation of its licensing agreement with the U.S. government. Turkey has often threatened force against Greece and Cyprus, most recently in response both to Greece’s role in harboring PKK leader Ocalan and to the Greek Cypriot government’s planned purchase of Russian S-300 air-defense missiles. The U.S. has often had to intervene to prevent open conflict between the two NATO allies, whose tense relationship threatens to further undermine regional stability.

=========

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey-United_States_relations

the Özal government generally perceived the administrations of President Ronald Reagan and President George H.W. Bush as sympathetic to Turkish interests. For example, Washington demonstrated its support of Özal's market-oriented economic policies and efforts to open the Turkish economy to international trade by pushing for acceptance of an International Monetary Fund program to provide economic assistance to Turkey. Furthermore, the United States, unlike European countries, did not persistently and publicly criticize Turkey over allegations of human rights violations. Also, the United States did not pressure Özal on the Kurdish problem, another issue that seemed to preoccupy the Europeans. By 1989 the United States had recovered a generally positive image among the Turkish political elite.

===============

http://fas.org/asmp/profiles/turkey_fmschart.htm

U.S. Military Aid and Arms Sales to Turkey

Fiscal Years 1980-1999

==============

Edited by Bob26003
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Bob..

You ruin every thread you post to..

Like I have said before: you are running this forum down with turning EVERY thread into a personal diatribe against the country you live in.

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Bob..

You ruin every thread you post to..

Like I have said before: you are running this forum down with turning EVERY thread into a personal diatribe against the country you live in.

Don't be mad Pinky cause you can't just go on your ignorant Pro War rants without someone calling you out.

It's simple Pinky, if you guys try to preach your Right wing propaganda, I am going to counter it. Plain and Simple.

Edited by Bob26003
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April 29, 2007

"They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages," said 63-year-old Ahmet Yurdakul, a retired government employee who attended the protest.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...ted_government/

Good on the Turks..

Lots of people seem to forget about Turkey and Tunisia, and think all predominantly Muslim countries are controlled by fascist regimes.

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Is this the same Government that with the backing of the US led the horrendous campaign against the Kurds and committed all the Human Rights abuses and attrocities and so forth? See supercar, that is one reason we are not percieved well in the Mid East. Not because of our Freedom, but because we prop up dictators and human rights violators. Saudia Arabia comes to mind. and of course, support Israel.

Who? Who does not perceive us well in the Middle East?

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Don't be mad Pinky cause you can't just go on your ignorant Pro War rants without someone calling you out.

It's simple Pinky, if you guys try to preach your Right wing propaganda, I am going to counter it. Plain and Simple.

Yup, you surely counter it with Liberal KOOK blogs, accusations and conspiracies.

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Hey nice Turkey B) ... if you keep this up...you can join the EU and we'll drop the dirty.

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Hey nice Turkey B) ... if you keep this up...you can join the EU and we'll drop the dirty.

I'm not a fan of the EU at all, but I'd rather Turkey be part of it than some of the countries that are there at the minute.

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I'm not a fan of the EU at all, but I'd rather Turkey be part of it than some of the countries that are there at the minute.

Yeah.. I was hoping by the time Turkey join the EU, we'd have left by the back-door. ;)

well, that's the plan... it's a secret.

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Yeah.. I was hoping by the time Turkey join the EU, we'd have left by the back-door. ;)

well, that's the plan... it's a secret.

hehe ;)

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Yeah.. I was hoping by the time Turkey join the EU, we'd have left by the back-door. ;)

well, that's the plan... it's a secret.

Hah - nobody gets out of the EU alive.... they'd impose economic sanctions.

Or set the French army onto us.

Hmmm... weell.... the sanctions could be a problem, I suppose.

I'm not a fan of the EU at all, but I'd rather Turkey be part of it than some of the countries that are there at the minute.

Quite right - lets kick France out. :D

To quote an old Admiralty toast.... "Gentlemen, let there be confusion to our enemies... but death to the French".

Meow Purr.

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Don't be mad Pinky cause you can't just go on your ignorant Pro War rants without someone calling you out.

It's simple Pinky, if you guys try to preach your Right wing propaganda, I am going to counter it. Plain and Simple.

Don't be a moron. We're p***ed because you de-railed the thread with your red herring rant against the United States, without addressing whether or not the Islamicist Party in power ought to step down because of ties to radical muslim circles. Which, you know, is a bad thing, since Turkey actually hopes to one day join the EU. In any case, the article was about a group of protestors, including a number, if you read the article, don't want the military to get involved either.

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Honestly, Bob...the article was not pro war and had nothing to do with the US. *sigh*

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Simply pointing out a fact: If you guys are going to rail against the Turkish Gov. you can't leave out that fact that we have provide much aid to them. It's called intellectual honesty. Try it sometime.

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WE aren't railing against anyone.

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A divided Turkey struggles for identity

Many of those protesting for secularism are not necessarily wealthy urban elites, but mosque-going Muslims

Saturday, May 05, 2007By RFE/RL

Islamic head scarf or miniskirt? In a nutshell, that's the choice Turks face as they head toward early general elections on July 22.

"It is quite likely that this [election] will be a plebiscite on whether there should be more religion in society or not," says David Barchard, a veteran Ankara-based analyst and former correspondent for "The Financial Times." And the chances are that a majority will say yes to that, and therefore the Justice and Development Party, the AK party, will go up."

The general elections had originally been set for November 4. But Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan of the Islamic-rooted AK ruling party on May 2 proposed early polls, after Turkey's highest court invalidated the first round of a presidential election held last week.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idarticle=9240

Edit: Please don't copy and paste the entire article or news story, quote only as much as is necessary. -Lottie

Edited by Lottie
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but because we prop up dictators and human rights violators.

so the iranians hate the US because it props up dictators other than the Ayotolla? the taliban thought the same i assume? is it because the US didn't prop them up?

so what about the likes of the very popular hamas and hezbollah, how much propping up is going towards those human rights violators?

puhlease

its really quite simple (because i'm going to assume you'll miss my point), your attempts to place the people of the middle east on some kind of moral high ground is beyond absurd, the middle east has always been a sh**hole full of dictators and human rights abuses, hell look at the once great lebanon!

when the people who are the problem (ie the fundamentalists) are actively engaging in human rights abuses (on a grander scale than the US) and actively moving to put in place ultra-conservative dictatorships can they really complain about the US supporting a slightly less sh**ty alternative?

Edited by bathory
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Simply pointing out a fact: If you guys are going to rail against the Turkish Gov. you can't leave out that fact that we have provide much aid to them. It's called intellectual honesty. Try it sometime.

Bob.. remember that little talk we had about you not going off being worse the the right wing fanatics here?

I think you need to go back and take that abit more seriously. Because right now, you are makeing the "left side" look horrible. And to the eyes of the right winger nuts.. the left side already looks horrible.

No one was railing Turkey. So there was no reason to go off like you did.

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While Bob is right that Turkey does have an atrocious human-rights record, things are not as black and white as he would like to see them (nor is it as simple as Bush being responsible for whatever ails Turkey, as he attempts to imply -- the US has been an ally of Turkey since the early 50s).

Turkey is a balwark between East and West. During the Cold War, it served as a bulwark against Sovietism. Now, during the War on Terror period, Turkey serves as a bulwark against an expanionist-extremist Islam. The Turkish military does serve a purpose in Turkish society as a protector of the secular society from extremist Islam; the military has seen itself the guardian of the secular society since the 1920s. It has been the military that has an important catalyst towards Turkey's Westernization, modernization, and democratization. Yes, the United States has turned a blind-eye to many of Turkey's shortcomings, because it would rather the West have an influence over the emerging nation rather than extremist Islam. It is better the US influence Turkey, despite its human rights record, than let it fall to something far, far worse.

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so the iranians hate the US because it props up dictators other than the Ayotolla? the taliban thought the same i assume? is it because the US didn't prop them up?

so what about the likes of the very popular hamas and hezbollah, how much propping up is going towards those human rights violators?

Railing against the "Far Enemy" is an excuse and a distraction. If we weren't "propping up" dictators, they would find another fault with the United States. Maybe it's because we support Israel, maybe because we went to war against Saddam Hussien; maybe because Qatb (who's idealogy influenced the Muslim Brotherhood and al'Qaeda) came to the United States during the 1930s and was horrified by our immorality.

The Islamists know that there are useful idiots in the US and the West will follow the line about the dictators the US/West props up, all the while ignoring the fact the Islamists want something far worse. Really, what is it they want? They don't want democracy, freedom of speech, or religion, or a right to choose. In Egypt what do they want? Islamic dictatorship. In Kuwait, in Lebanon, in Jordan, what do they want? An Islamic dictatorship. Even in Saudi Arabia they want an Islamic dictatorship, but one even more strict, more harsh, if you can imagine that.

But no, we're the bad-guys here for being against that. Keep buying into the lie and the distraction.

Edited by BrucePrime
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I think it's great that the Turkish actually dares speaking against Islamic fanaticism.

And conspiracies aside, it wouldn't surprise me if it was CIA lying behind the uprising :)

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Bob.. remember that little talk we had about you not going off being worse the the right wing fanatics here?

I think you need to go back and take that abit more seriously. Because right now, you are makeing the "left side" look horrible. And to the eyes of the right winger nuts.. the left side already looks horrible.

No one was railing Turkey. So there was no reason to go off like you did.

SC, to not point out that the US has supported Turkey militarily and financially while it committed horrendous Human Rights violations, is Intellectually dishonest.

Now, if you think that is making the left look bad, I don't know what to tell you. And since when should the Left care what the Right thinks of them? I don't understand you.

Edited by Bob26003
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'''''''''''''''''''''''''Yes, the United States has turned a blind-eye to many of Turkey's shortcomings, because it would rather the West have an influence over the emerging nation rather than extremist Islam. It is better the US influence Turkey, despite its human rights record, than let it fall to something far, far worse.'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

I doubt the victims would take that position.

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