Egyptian evidence in Australia

[The Puzzler]

http://www.subversiveelement.com/History_A...roglyphics.html .....these people from far away lands came here to gather Gold. Some of the races that visited were most commonly the Aztecs and Egyptians. In Brett Green's books, the Aboriginals would speak of ships with "heart beats", this would of course refer to banging of the drums as each stroke of the paddles struck the water. They told of "sails", in their own words and also of the armor worn by some of the strangers who arrived from these ships.

I must have been on that site today as I read that paragraph also. Interesting to think that information was told in Aboriginal stories passed down, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. Thank you again for your links and info Crystal Sage, some I have been in before but you are providing much good reading!

Edited May 19, 2007 by weareallsuckers

[The Puzzler]

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesost...ailing-to-punt/

The long-held belief that the Ancient Egyptians did not tend to travel long distances by sea because of poor naval technology proved fallacious last week when timbers, rigging and cedar planks were unearthed in the ancient Red Sea port of Marsa Gawasis, 23 kilometres south of Port Safaga.

The remains of seafaring vessels were found in four large, hand-hewn caves which were probably used as storage or boat houses from the Middle Kingdom to the early New Kingdom periods. Early examination revealed that each cave measured 60 square metres and had an entrance constructed of reused anchors, limestone blocks and wooden beams. Other stone anchors were located outside the entrances.

Edited May 19, 2007 by weareallsuckers

[truthist]

Statues: In 1914, archaeologist M.A. Gonzales was excavating some Mayan ruins in the city of Acajutla, Mexico when he was surprised by the discovery of two statuettes that were clearly Egyptian. One male and one female, the carvings bore ancient Egyptian dress and cartouches. They are thought to depict Osiis and Isis.

I googled this for a bit, since it sounded so interestingly out-there. Most websites have basically copy-pasted variations on what you posted and linked to http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf098/sf098a01.htm. I don't know if there are websites in Spanish that would have more information on it, mainly because I can't read the language.

Then I found this, which fills in some more of the details: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=137. It's from some "Journal of Book of Mormon Studies", but the author has a Ph.D. in Egyptology. He thinks the statuettes are forgeries because of the way hair is depicted on one of them, and because that statuette also happens to be basically identical to other known forgeries. He also has some other questions about them, but I'll let the article speak for itself.

[The Puzzler]

I googled this for a bit, since it sounded so interestingly out-there. Most websites have basically copy-pasted variations on what you posted and linked to http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf098/sf098a01.htm. I don't know if there are websites in Spanish that would have more information on it, mainly because I can't read the language.

Then I found this, which fills in some more of the details: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=137. It's from some "Journal of Book of Mormon Studies", but the author has a Ph.D. in Egyptology. He thinks the statuettes are forgeries because of the way hair is depicted on one of them, and because that statuette also happens to be basically identical to other known forgeries. He also has some other questions about them, but I'll let the article speak for itself.

Seems fair enough. I am sure there is many a forgery and fake item circulating but I am also sure that many things could be real. I am willing to think that the heiroglyphics I first mentioned are fakes even but I see much more like language links and cultural links as well as structures and other links that I've mentioned in previous posts. There will always be fakes I guess, someone trying to cash in but I still think there is plenty of evidence to think that ancient people visited Australia and other countries in the world. Thank you for showing me that link.

Here is a link and some info from the site regarding ancient maps: http://www.treasureenterprises.com/Miscell...n_australia.htm

MAPS

Some early maps, one of which was drawn by Arabian Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi of Baghdad records the Java-Australian region in his book written in 817 – 826 AD which included 4 maps. The only surviving manuscript is held at the Strasburg University, France. It is claimed he drew the maps from the records of Sinbad ten years after his final voyage. Another ancient Ptolemy World map depicts Ceylon/Java/Australia as one land mass called 'Taprobana Infula Mare Indicum'.

It appears the Chinese drew their first official map of Australia in 1320 AD. It was referred to as the Chu Ssu Pen map. It can only be assumed that the Chinese without doubt, had the capabilities of sailing regularly to Australia, mapping and exploring its coastal and nearby inland areas.

In the time between c. 1400 – 1500 AD, the Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and French came exploring the coastlines of Australia. There are numerous wonderful maps of antiquity in institutions that show evidence of their great explorative journeys. Some of these include (a) The De Noha Map of 1414 ( The Genovese World Map of 1451 © The Toscanelli Map of 1474.

It is believed that a porcelain map showing a reasonable accurate outline of Australia is supposed to have been presented to the Chinese emperor, Ying Tsung in 1477, suggesting that the continent had been circumnavigated by Chinese seamen before that date.

In 1542, the Dutchman, Cornelius Wytfliet published a map showing roughly the East and West coast and the Gulf of Carpentaria.

A map which is held in the Vatican Library, Italy, shows Jesuit Fr. Ricci's North Queensland map which formed part of his world map drawn in Peking, China in 1602.

A Dutch map of Australia was prepared by Pieter van den Keere in 1608 was prepared just before Abel Tasman's discoveries when little was known by Europeans of the fabulous continent Terra Australia Incognita. The Spanish who were exploring the Australian landmass one to two centuries previous were far more advanced in their knowledge of the southern land and did not share their discoveries with the Dutch.

Edited May 19, 2007 by weareallsuckers

[The Puzzler]

I refuse to believe all this is fake:

QUEENSLAND

The Gympie Pyramid. This pyramidal structure was situated to the north-east of Gympie. It was 100 feet high and consisted of a series of terraces up to 4 feet tall and eight feet across and was constructed of small to larger lumps of localised stone. It had three entrances. There was also another structure nearby. Incidentally, a similar structure existed at Penrith, New South Wales and five others were said to exist in the eastern Sepik region of Papua New Guinea and that these in turn matched other examples found in Egypt. There is also an early history of the possible gold mining activity in the area that took place at that time. The story of the 'Gympie Pyramid' is one by itself and due to space restrictions cannot be expanded here. (Please refer to the notes at the end of the article)

As far back as the 1850's, the early settlers of the Gympie region found many relics belonging to ancient races including pottery fragments, metal tools, forged implements and carvings. One such find found in a field near Mothar Mountain east of Gympie was an ancient crudely hand-forged spoon of an unknown bronze alloy indicating great antiquity. It appeared to be Middle-Eastern in origin.

In 1890, a stepped pyramid structure was found in jungle near Gordonvale south of Cairns.

At Long Island situated in the Whitsunday Passage, lies a wreck of a ship, when in c. 1890, a local sheep farmer named Kean came across some silver cutlery and pieces of silver plate. Further up on the land near the wreck, past the high water mark, he found a Spanish coin and, about 200 yards farther inland, more coins, both silver and gold. Another mystery!

Furthermore, a Grecian coin c. 23 BC. and more scarabs were found in Cairns / Gordonvale regions as well as rock inscriptions in 1910 and 1978 suggesting that a second Egyptian colony had begun c. 200 – 300 BC.

In the Brisbane 'Sunday Sun' newspaper dated 24th July, 1989, a feature article stated a small stone scarab with hieroglyphics – an amulet or seal of office for an important official had been unearthed in 1910 at Mossman, North Queensland. The scarab was originally found two metres below the surface during the construction of a well. It was 9cm in length and made of sandstone. It is known that scarab seals were worn or placed on property from Egypt to Syria. Commanders of the Egyptian ships and army forces also used them as insignia. It also reported of an unusual mound with a perfect square base was found in dense rainforest near Townsville.

2000 year-old Greek and Ptolemaic coins were reportedly found at numerous coastal locations in northern Australia. The most notable was one found by Andrew Henderson in 1910 at the Barron Falls near Cairns, Queensland. It was identified as a Ptolemy IV bronze coin bearing a recognisable head of the horned Zeus of Ommon. It was 1½" in diameter and ¼" thick and regarded as a priceless relic. It was apparently identified by the Brisbane Numismatic Society c. 1959 as being minted in Barce, Cyrenaica during the reign of Pharaoh Ptolemy IV who ruled from c. 221 to 204 BC. The reverse side shows an eagle riding a thunderbolt – a Ptolemaic insignia.

A Rameses I royal cartouche (an oval ring enclosing Egyptian hieroglyphics) estimated to be several thousand years old was dug up in North Queensland in 1911.

In 1912, workmen digging a well shaft at Gordonvale south of Cairns unearthed at a depth of 12 feet, a large rock carved in the form of a scarab beetle, an object of worship in ancient Egypt.

Just east of Gympie, Queensland, in the 1930's, a highly respected early pioneer of the forest industry while inspecting new areas of old forests between Mt. Wolvi and Mt. Wahpunga west of Lakes Como and Cootharaba in the Cooloola National Park region, uncovered a very ancient 37cm chalice with removable lid/handle embedded in the clay of an old gully water flow. The bronzed-pewter artefact displayed ornate hand-beaten or cast decorations depicting Grecian ribboned heads, lion-head motifs and many other forms of imprint. The handle was missing but points where it was attached can be seen. The chalice-type artefact may have been a wine decanter; or a water jar; an ornate drinking cup (with lid); or possibly an oil/wax light burner. One side had been damaged and holed. In 1998, the current owner of the artefact consulted two antique dealers. In their opinion, they believed the object was extremely old and possibly Egypto-Greek because of the patterns displayed. Today's interest centres on how such an object could have been found in such an inaccessible jungle place where at that time, Europeans would have never travelled or resided. Incidentally, the location where it was found is approximately half-way between Lake Cootharaba north of Noosa and the 'pyramid' site just east of Gympie and near to recently discovered pre-European quarry in the lakes region.

A golden scarab was found on the eastern side of Mothar Mountain east of Gympie in 1959 along with strange inscriptions on a large rock in the same region.

Mr. C. Morton of Gordonvale near Cairns, Queensland, reported in 1960 that at Boogie, an engineer Mr. W. Johnstone while on a bush surveying expedition came across a moss covered slab of what was thought to be stone but was in fact, a slab of cut marble. It was recovered and cleaned to reveal symbols cut into the stone of an unknown origin but in fact resembled Egyptian. Apparently Australian Museums ignored all the photographs but the British Museum identified the inscriptions as possibly Phoenician.

A jade Ankh (the cross of life) was uncovered near Murgon west of Gympie in 1964.

At Ipswich in Queensland during 1965, yielded a cache of hand-forged bronze-copper and iron tools plus pottery and coins dating back more than 2000 years. The artefacts were claimed to be of Egyptian origin.

A carved stone statue (now known as the famous Gympie 'Ape Idol') was unearthed when a field was being ploughed (c. 1966) near the site of the 'Gympie Pyramid'. Two theories is that (a) It could be in fact a replica of the Egyptian god Thoth – the God of Wisdom and Inventor of the Arts of Writing which could be at least 3000 years old and was made from local ironstone. Or ( It could be one of the missing sacrificial statues for the Chinese God of Longevity buried in the great south land by Cheng Ho during his voyage of 1432(?).This near metre high artefact is currently displayed in a glass case at the Gympie District Historical and Gold Mining Museum.

In the late 1960's, Rockhampton in Central Queensland was credited with the finding of an Egyptian calendar stone and gold scarabs, gold coins and other artefacts estimated to be aged around 2700 BC.

During a dig in 1969 at Cooktown, two gold coins of the Ptolemy period c. 200 BC were discovered.

In 1976, a team of researchers from the Soils Division of the C.S.R.I.O. whilst using a sand auger at Hook Point on Fraser Island, Queensland, recovered at a depth of 2.2 to 2.4 metres, an ancient Celtic lead fishing weight which measured 6cm x 11cm which had a hole in it which indicates an attachment to a fishing net. Extensive studies were carried out and it appears that it was left on the beach somewhere around 1235 – 1400 AD. It is now in the Queensland Museum.

An obelisk stone with a pyramid apex was found in scrubland at Coen in North Queensland in 1978.

In the early 1990's, two elderly men, John Mansell and Ken McKinnon located a small 8 inch (200mm) high carved sandstone/granite head resembling Easter Island art forms in the Tamaree area north-east of Gympie and a short distance from the 'Gympie Pyramid' site. It has not been identified.

A weathered fragment of an old wooden carved object was found in 1997 at the same Gympie site preserved from the weather by a collapsed rock wall. The carving fragment depicts a deity sitting in a squat position holding a portion ledge covering? Intricate line inscriptions can still be seen but cannot be translated. The origin of the artefact again may be Indian/Tamil or Asian/Polynesian. As for age, this has not been determined but it is considered to be several hundred years old and pre-European.

An unidentified hand carved jade-like knife handle depicting a monkey-type creature was uncovered on a quartz-sand hillside east of Gympie where an ancient pre-European/non-Aboriginal site investigation was being carried out in June 1998 by local researchers. The artefact may be of Indian/Tamil or Asian/Polynesian origin.

Aboriginal drawings at the Herberton Aboriginal Gallery in North Queensland, supposedly depict an Egyptian Nile plant.

Magnetic metallic granite artefacts similar to Black Mountain rocks outside Cooktown, North Queensland were supposedly found at the great pyramid in Egypt.

There is a story of a North Queensland cattleman who used to serve his dinner guests off gold plates fashioned from melted down coins found on the station.

On Tuesday 10th February, 2004, the Brisbane 'Courier Mail' has an article (page 13) which reports Phoenician relics being found near Armstrong's Beach south of Sarina. It includes, which is to believed a sceptre of black cast steel, weighing 8 kg with a hammered flat tip at one end. Reports of ancient stone carvings have also been found in the area. Val Osborn and Gil Deem also mention of a headland near Freshwater Point which contains sparkling specks of telluride which is a mix of gold and silver in a seam in the cliff. It appears that this seam was worked extensively a long, long time ago). The full report of this find can be read in the above mentioned article)..

I have only included the Queenland things because the entire list was quite long. I live in Far Nth Queensland and with Herberton a stones throw from me I will check this one out tomorrow. I actually visited the Aboriginal learning centre here in my town to try and find something in the aboriginal drawings and photos, I know they can be found, you just need to now what you are looking for.

[sirfiroth]

I refuse to believe all this is fake:

And rightly so!

I would like to take this time to remind all readers that at one time all scientist and experts believed the world to be flat, until proven wrong by Columbus who brought them undeniable proof.

Copurnicus was tried for Heresy because he could demonstrate the Earth was not the center of the Universe.

So whenever I see articles by socalled experts debunking the evidence that demonstrates these things are real I remember Columbus and the problems associated with presenting any information that runs contrary to mainstream beliefs.

Credentials, cannot create, nor or they proof of intelligence, but only that you know how to play their game according to their rules.

Just a few of those who didn't play by the rules (had no credentials):

Christopher Colombus

Copurnicus

Thomas Edison

Henry Ford

Albert Einstein

Nicola Tesla

These men were all considered to be rogues and laughed at by their contemporatries. These men were the thinkers and doers of their times, not to be confused with the debunkers of their time. Who is in the History books?

Just had to say it,I'll shutup now.

[The Puzzler]

And rightly so!

I would like to take this time to remind all readers that at one time all scientist and experts believed the world to be flat, until proven wrong by Columbus who brought them undeniable proof.

Copurnicus was tried for Heresy because he could demonstrate the Earth was not the center of the Universe.

So whenever I see articles by socalled experts debunking the evidence that demonstrates these things are real I remember Columbus and the problems associated with presenting any information that runs contrary to mainstream beliefs.

Credentials, cannot create, nor or they proof of intelligence, but only that you know how to play their game according to their rules.

Just a few of those who didn't play by the rules (had no credentials):

Christopher Colombus

Copurnicus

Thomas Edison

Henry Ford

Albert Einstein

Nicola Tesla

These men were all considered to be rogues and laughed at by their contemporatries. These men were the thinkers and doers of their times, not to be confused with the debunkers of their time. Who is in the History books?

Just had to say it,I'll shutup now.

lol, thank you for airing that, sure made me feel better!

[The Puzzler]

.....and let us not forget the legal complications these finds cause:

"They must, therefore, be the work of "preAborigines." Today's Aborigines will have none of this condescension. They were the original settlers of Australia, and as such they have bona fide land and title claims. Any recognition of "pre-Aborigines" would undercut these claims. In New Zealand, the Maoris insist they were the first settlers, despite evidence to the contrary. The Maoris, too, have land claims." Science Frontiers website concerning unusual early Aboriginal Rock Art.

Edited May 19, 2007 by weareallsuckers

[truthist]

And rightly so!

I would like to take this time to remind all readers that at one time all scientist and experts believed the world to be flat, until proven wrong by Columbus who brought them undeniable proof.

Copurnicus was tried for Heresy because he could demonstrate the Earth was not the center of the Universe.

So whenever I see articles by socalled experts debunking the evidence that demonstrates these things are real I remember Columbus and the problems associated with presenting any information that runs contrary to mainstream beliefs.

Credentials, cannot create, nor or they proof of intelligence, but only that you know how to play their game according to their rules.

Just a few of those who didn't play by the rules (had no credentials):

Christopher Colombus

Copurnicus

Thomas Edison

Henry Ford

Albert Einstein

Nicola Tesla

These men were all considered to be rogues and laughed at by their contemporatries. These men were the thinkers and doers of their times, not to be confused with the debunkers of their time. Who is in the History books?

Just had to say it,I'll shutup now.

That bit about flat Earth and Columbus is false, though. And wasn't it Galileo Galilei who got in trouble with the church? I think that misconception about Columbus' contemproraries' beliefs already illustrates a point: we shouldn't let ourselves be drawn in by fanciful, romantic, dramatic etc. ideas just because it would be neat if they were correct. We need to get to the bottom of things, which I believe is what debunking is largely about. It means trying to find reasons why a theory could be false. It's a test to see whether it really works like it's supposed to. You don't test things by admiring the surface polish and hoping that they work. You have to try and deliberately break them to discover the weaknesses.

Besides, you can get in the History books by being an exceptionally awful guy as well.

[sirfiroth]

That bit about flat Earth and Columbus is false, though. And wasn't it Galileo Galilei who got in trouble with the church? I think that misconception about Columbus' contemproraries' beliefs already illustrates a point: we shouldn't let ourselves be drawn in by fanciful, romantic, dramatic etc. ideas just because it would be neat if they were correct. We need to get to the bottom of things, which I believe is what debunking is largely about. It means trying to find reasons why a theory could be false. It's a test to see whether it really works like it's supposed to. You don't test things by admiring the surface polish and hoping that they work. You have to try and deliberately break them to discover the weaknesses.

Besides, you can get in the History books by being an exceptionally awful guy as well.

If you wish to discuss the flat earth theory we can do that. The History books from my years in school are wrong if what you say is true. I guess that demonstrates we are continually evolving and learning. There must be some other reason that Colombus had such a horrific time finding funding for his expedition. Quoting the so called experts in any field of endeavor carrries the inherent consequence of being proved wrong at some point in future.

Yes it was Copernicus who first theorized the sun as the center of the Solar System Copernicus

What I have found is, any Theory that does not fit into the preconcieved concepts of our time we tend to discredit it without full investigation. Which would explain why after 300 years we haven't determined how the ancient Egyptians Squared the circle as represented by the Great Pyramid. Never acknowledging it was possibly built on different concepts than our mathematical system of today embraces. Pythagoras stated “The principles governing numbers are understood to be the principles of real existence; the elements of numbers are the elements of realities". Are we so arrogant as to think we have determined all there is to know about in the field of mathematics? If we have then why can't we explain the Great Pyramid? Why can't we determine the concepts, principles and elements that governed the building this Magnificent structure? There are no absloutes in this world, only change.

Just remember history was always written by the winner!

[Harte]

And just in case you think that Egyptians couldn't make it to Australia, seems they made it to many places around the world.

The Far-Traveling Egyptians

Inscriptions: Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs have been found in New South Wales, Australia. Located on a rock cliff in the National Park forest of the Hunter Valley, north of Sydney, the enigmatic carvings have been known since the early 1900s. There are more than 250 carvings of familiar Egyptian gods and symbols, including a life-sized engraving of the god Anubis. The hieroglyphs tell the story of explorers who were shipwrecked in a strange and hostile land, and the untimely death of their royal leader, "Lord Djes-eb." From this information, scholars have been able to date the voyage to somewhere between 1779 and 2748 BC.

Though I haven't provided a link, I and others in this very thread have stated that these are forgeries. Yet for, what, the third time in this thread you list this as some sort of "evidence." Again?

Fossils: In 1982, archaeologists digging at Fayum, near the Siwa Oasis in Egypt uncovered fossils of kangaroos and other Australian marsupials.

This simply a lie, as I've already demonstrated right here in this link. Yet, again, you repeat this lie.

Repetition does not equate to believability.

Language: There are striking similarities between the languages of ancient Egypt and those of the Native Americans that inhabited the areas around Louisiana about the time of Christ. B. Fell, of the Epigraphic Society, has stated that the language of the Atakapas, and to a lesser extent those of the Tunica and Chitimacha tribes, have affinities with Nile Valley languages involving just those words one would associate with Egyptian trading communities of 2,000 years ago.

This, according to a marine biologist! Please provide at least some evidence from people that actually know something about these ancient languages.

Tombs: The April 5, 1909 edition of The Phoenix Gazette carried a front-page article about the discovery and excavation of an Egyptian tomb in the Grand Canyon by none other that the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian has since denied knowledge of any such discovery.

I've read the article and I'm not impressed. It refers to the Smithsonian Institution as the "Smithsonian Institute." There were many bogus articles published in newspapers back then, this particular one was a follow-up story to one that (so the article states) appeared in the paper several days earlier. Maybe it has something to do with the date??

I used to have a couple of skeptical links on this, they're out there. I'm not going digging to find them again today. Googling this subject returns, like most pseudoscience subjects, millions of hits, most of them cut and paste copies of whatever one is the original.

Anyway, I think this appears in another thread here at U-M.

I refuse to believe all this is fake...

You expose here the source of the ignorance. Refusal to believe a thing, regardless of how often it's shown to you that it is false.

The list you provide following this statement may well contain a few items that are not "fake." You lump them together like this as if each single one was in itself evidence of something, but this is simply not the case. On top of this, you've simply (once again) provided a list of things that we are supposed to take on faith as actually existing.

The Gympie Pyramid. This pyramidal structure was situated to the north-east of Gympie. It was 100 feet high and consisted of a series of terraces up to 4 feet tall and eight feet across and was constructed of small to larger lumps of localised stone. It had three entrances...

...A carved stone statue (now known as the famous Gympie 'Ape Idol') was unearthed when a field was being ploughed (c. 1966) near the site of the 'Gympie Pyramid'. Two theories is that (a) It could be in fact a replica of the Egyptian god Thoth – the God of Wisdom and Inventor of the Arts of Writing which could be at least 3000 years old and was made from local ironstone. Or ( It could be one of the missing sacrificial statues for the Chinese God of Longevity buried in the great south land by Cheng Ho during his voyage of 1432(?).This near metre high artefact is currently displayed in a glass case at the Gympie District Historical and Gold Mining Museum.

Oh, and you can forget about the so-called "Gympie Pyramid." It's not a pyramid, it's a hill that was terraced by Italian immigrants to Australia. Nothing more:

"What are we left with? The facts are (probably) that the Gympie 'Golden' pyramid is actually an ordinary hill terraced by early Italian immigrants for viniculture that has been disfigured by erosion and the removal of stone from the retaining walls for use elsewhere; the stone wall around Gympie's Surface Hill Uniting Church is exactly what the Rev Mr Geddes says it is -- a wall made from irregular, freshly quarried stone. The 'Gympie Ape/Iron Man' statue was carved by a Chinese gold prospector and later abandoned. The sun symbol and snakes were carved quite recently. The prickly pear was introduced to Australia by early settlers journeying via South America. As for all the supporting statements by the various authorities, all but a few unimportant ones fade away as one after another proves to be a misquote, a falsification or an outright fabrication."

(Wheeler, Tony; "In Quest of Australia's Lost Pyramids," Omega Science Digest, p. 22, November/December 1985.)

Source: IN QUEST OF Australia's lost pyramids, by Anthony G. Wheeler

Magnetic metallic granite artefacts similar to Black Mountain rocks outside Cooktown, North Queensland were supposedly found at the great pyramid in Egypt.

To check on the accuracy of this single statement would be simplicity itself. However, I am not amazed that you haven't done so, given your admission that you would refuse to believe the result of your own research on this particular matter.

I would like to take this time to remind all readers that at one time all scientist and experts believed the world to be flat, until proven wrong by Columbus who brought them undeniable proof.

That is not the case at all. In other words, you are lying.

So whenever I see articles by socalled experts debunking the evidence that demonstrates these things are real I remember Columbus and the problems associated with presenting any information that runs contrary to mainstream beliefs.

So, when you see experts giving their valid reasons that support their theories, you clamp your not-significant mental powers down and cling to what is basically a mistaken memory you have of something somebody told you about Columbus sometime back that turns out not to even be true?

No wonder you'll believe anything but the truth!

Credentials, cannot create, nor or they proof of intelligence, but only that you know how to play their game according to their rules.

Just a few of those who didn't play by the rules (had no credentials):

Christopher Colombus

Copurnicus

Thomas Edison

Henry Ford

Albert Einstein

Nicola Tesla

These men were all considered to be rogues and laughed at by their contemporatries. These men were the thinkers and doers of their times, not to be confused with the debunkers of their time. Who is in the History books?

Another blatant falsehood perpetrated in a feeble and transparent attempt to prop up an untenable argument.

Just had to say it,I'll shutup now.

On the other hand, you do show some signs of common sense.

We need to get to the bottom of things, which I believe is what debunking is largely about. It means trying to find reasons why a theory could be false. It's a test to see whether it really works like it's supposed to. You don't test things by admiring the surface polish and hoping that they work. You have to try and deliberately break them to discover the weaknesses.

An excellent articulation of the role that skepticism plays in the practice of the scientific method.

Thank you truthist!

Harte

Edited to provide a link to a better and more extensive site with the Wheeler quote about the Gympie Pyramid and Ape Man carving.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Harte

[Harte]

What I have found is, any Theory that does not fit into the preconcieved concepts of our time we tend to discredit it without full investigation.

A bold statement to make, given you provide no documentation of what you here claim. It is in my mind that it is you that fail to conduct a "full investigation" and that you project this particular character flaw from yourself onto other, less irresponsible, parties.

Which would explain why after 300 years we haven't determined how the ancient Egyptians Squared the circle as represented by the Great Pyramid.

I have serious doubts that you even know what is meant by "squaring the circle." Please provide at least one iota of evidence that in some way indicates that the Egyptians were capable of accomplishing this feat, when it has been mathematically proven that such a thing is impossible!

Never acknowledging it was possibly built on different concepts than our mathematical system of today embraces. Pythagoras stated “The principles governing numbers are understood to be the principles of real existence; the elements of numbers are the elements of realities". Are we so arrogant as to think we have determined all there is to know about in the field of mathematics?

This statement reveals the depth of your own ignorance on the subject of mathematics. There is no end to mathematics. But mathematics has itself proven that there is no "squaring the circle." This was proven, by the way, in the 1800's.

If we have then why can't we explain the Great Pyramid?

The Great Pyramid has been explained. The simple fact that you are unable to "explain" it does not mean that no one has been able to. You're projecting again.

Why can't we determine the concepts, principles and elements that governed the building this Magnificent structure?

Gee, maybe because we weren't there?

There are several theories on pyramid construction (one at this very forum, in fact) that fully explain how the pyramids could have been constructed. What is difficult is to determine which of these is the correct one, that is, the one that actually corresponds to how the pyramids actually were built.

Short of a time machine, or an incredible archaeological find, there's just no way to be certain.

Harte

[sirfiroth]

A bold statement to make, given you provide no documentation of what you here claim. It is in my mind that it is you that fail to conduct a "full investigation" and that you project this particular character flaw from yourself onto other, less irresponsible, parties.

I have serious doubts that you even know what is meant by "squaring the circle." Please provide at least one iota of evidence that in some way indicates that the Egyptians were capable of accomplishing this feat, when it has been mathematically proven that such a thing is impossible!

This statement reveals the depth of your own ignorance on the subject of mathematics. There is no end to mathematics. But mathematics has itself proven that there is no "squaring the circle." This was proven, by the way, in the 1800's.

The Great Pyramid has been explained. The simple fact that you are unable to "explain" it does not mean that no one has been able to. You're projecting again.

Gee, maybe because we weren't there?

There are several theories on pyramid construction (one at this very forum, in fact) that fully explain how the pyramids could have been constructed. What is difficult is to determine which of these is the correct one, that is, the one that actually corresponds to how the pyramids actually were built.

Short of a time machine, or an incredible archaeological find, there's just no way to be certain.

Harte

I can cetainly understand your making the above typical condesending statements demonstrating the arrogance of the mathematical community as it exists today. You do not have the information that I have, you therefore assume you have all the answers, which also tells me you know nothing of the mathematical qualities of the Great Pyramd.

Mathematically it is impossible to make the area of a circle equal to the area of a square since the square root of pi is irrational. The true power of mathematics is in the numbers ability to create concepts, principles and elements as governing factors of the world, as we perceive it. The ancient mathematicians used governing factors just assuredly as we use them today, theirs are just different. Just because our system cannot accomplish something does not mean it is impossible.

Pythagoras stated “The principles governing numbers are understood to be the principles of real existence; the elements of numbers are the elements of realities”.

Having read Pythagoras’ statement, are the implications of his statement truly understood? In my mind what he states is; Rational numbers have their own principles that is characteristics they stay in one realm. Irrational numbers have their characteristics in another realm. The two realms are not compatible with each other. From rational numbers you can create irrational numbers, however conversely you cannot create a rational number from an irrational number, it is a one-way street.

Logically if our system cannot square the circle how can we possibly envision any meaning to the concepts and elements the ancients instilled in any structure using the squared circle. We have put a great deal of effort into trying to remake the ancient structures to fit within the concepts and elements established by our current system, resulting in a collection of theories which in reality yield no satisfactory answers. In our enthusiasm we have overlooked the possibility that the solution to the problem might possibly be a third alternative, to both π and Φ, created and used by the ancients to project their concepts. While our values for π and Φ both offer suitable credentials for the task, neither offers insight into the concepts and principles of the ancients, failing to give us what we really desire… answers. Logic would dictate if three hundred years of research produce no satisfactory results then an incompatibility has to exist between the structures and our mathematical system. This does not mean one system is better than the other, only different. We have been trying to comprehend a five thousand year-old problem with 21st century mathematics.

The difference between the Our system and Their system is Our system provided estimates their system provides finite answers regarding the ancient structures.

I am projecting nothing, the ancients did demonstrate the ability to make the perimeter of the square equal to the circumference of a circle whose radius is equal to the height of the pyramid as illustrated in "Secrets of the Great Pyramid" by Peter Thompkins. There is your mathematical proof, the ancients developed and used this as part of their system of measures relating to geodetic properties of Earth.

Our current system of mathematics also proves (Gauss) you cannot create a Septagon with a compass and straight edge. This is another thing the the Ancient Mathematicans could do. Being that the Great Pyramid, Stonehenge, and the Pyramids of Mesoamerica demonstrate they were all created from the elements of a Septagonal formula that is encoded on the Giza Plateau.

The Great Pyramid is the embodiment of two principles Pi and Seventh angle encased in a form we are unable to reproduce today even with our level of sophisitcation.

BTW I do have that incredible archeological find. My Paper "Common Ground II" in which I detail how the ancients were able to square the circle both geometrically and mathematically, along with formulas deriving all ancients units of measure should be avaliable mid July.

So if this makes me a dumb ass as you implied, then I am very glad to be accept that title.

[The Puzzler]

Though I haven't provided a link, I and others in this very thread have stated that these are forgeries. Yet for, what, the third time in this thread you list this as some sort of "evidence." Again?

I've read the article and I'm not impressed. It refers to the Smithsonian Institution as the "Smithsonian Institute." There were many bogus articles published in newspapers back then, this particular one was a follow-up story to one that (so the article states) appeared in the paper several days earlier. Maybe it has something to do with the date?

You expose here the source of the ignorance. Refusal to believe a thing, regardless of how often it's shown to you that it is false.

The list you provide following this statement may well contain a few items that are not "fake." You lump them together like this as if each single one was in itself evidence of something, but this is simply not the case. On top of this, you've simply (once again) provided a list of things that we are supposed to take on faith as actually existing.

Oh, and you can forget about the so-called "Gympie Pyramid." It's not a pyramid, it's a hill that was terraced by Italian immigrants to Australia. Nothing more:

Well where's your link? Where's your so called proof they are fake? Because you and some others have said so does not equate to proof to me, sorry....and I am simply listing things that appear in websites so people can make up their own minds. Show me your proof.

I just copied and pasted the whole lot of info, I didn't take each one and examine it. I'm not telling you to take anything on faith as actually existing, I'm just putting it out there for people to be aware of and make up their own minds about. I see this all the time, as many say it's true, say it's not. I have no proof of any of it being true but just find it all very interesting and there is obviously some truth in some of it. You yourself state that not all the things in the list I provided would be fake, if you are to concede one is true seems you are saying Egyptians could have had contact with Aboriginals, either they are all fake and they didn't make it here or they are real and they did, which one is it? I started this thread to make people aware of these things, not to have to constantly answer to you.

If you re read my intro to this thread I do mention not to dismiss it because of the mention of the Gympie Pyramids because I do know they are supposedly made by Italian vineyards owners so didn't want anyone to think it was a valid point in this thread.

Me saying I refuse to believe all this is fake is ridiculous to jump on, OK, maybe I should have said I do not want to accept this is all fake. Nit picking again I see.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone, you are the one discounting it all so you show me the actual validated proof that these heiroglyphics are fake.

[Harte]

Well where's your link? Where's your so called proof they are fake? Because you and some others have said so does not equate to proof to me, sorry....and I am simply listing things that appear in websites so people can make up their own minds. Show me your proof.

Read the info at these links:

emails from an Australian Egyptologist

From Jim Loy's Pseudoscience pages

From "Forgeries, Hoaxes and Curiosities"

Article at Ozemail - note the disclaimer at the top of the page

A local Aussie says all the locals know these are fakes - pics at Webshots of the hieroglyphics

If you actually bother to look into what I've just handed you on a silver platter (and believe me, it's much harder to find the truth about these silly things than it is to find some ridiculous claim about them,) then you'll learn that at least one person has been caught red-handed actually carving glyphs at this location.

But don't take my word for it (as if you'd even consider such a thing! ) Why not talk to several Australian Egyptologists? Maybe you can see if, as your sources claim, all this "evidence" has been "ignored" by the mainstream:

E-Mail Addresses of several Australian Egyptologists

I just copied and pasted the whole lot of info, I didn't take each one and examine it. I'm not telling you to take anything on faith as actually existing, I'm just putting it out there for people to be aware of and make up their own minds about. I see this all the time, as many say it's true, say it's not. I have no proof of any of it being true but just find it all very interesting and there is obviously some truth in some of it. You yourself state that not all the things in the list I provided would be fake, if you are to concede one is true seems you are saying Egyptians could have had contact with Aboriginals, either they are all fake and they didn't make it here or they are real and they did, which one is it?

For the sake of clarity, I'll quote a few of the things you said that might be true:

At Long Island situated in the Whitsunday Passage, lies a wreck of a ship, when in c. 1890, a local sheep farmer named Kean came across some silver cutlery and pieces of silver plate. Further up on the land near the wreck, past the high water mark, he found a Spanish coin and, about 200 yards farther inland, more coins, both silver and gold.

Furthermore, a Grecian coin c. 23 BC. and more scarabs were found in Cairns...

2000 year-old Greek and Ptolemaic coins were reportedly found at numerous coastal locations in northern Australia. The most notable was one found by Andrew Henderson in 1910 at the Barron Falls near Cairns, Queensland. It was identified as a Ptolemy IV bronze coin bearing a recognisable head of the horned Zeus of Ommon. It was 1½" in diameter and ¼" thick and regarded as a priceless relic. It was apparently identified by the Brisbane Numismatic Society c. 1959 as being minted in Barce, Cyrenaica during the reign of Pharaoh Ptolemy IV who ruled from c. 221 to 204 BC. The reverse side shows an eagle riding a thunderbolt – a Ptolemaic insignia.

A jade Ankh (the cross of life) was uncovered near Murgon west of Gympie in 1964.

There is a story of a North Queensland cattleman who used to serve his dinner guests off gold plates fashioned from melted down coins found on the station.

I'll stop there.

A shipwreck and possibly associated cutlery and Spanish coins. And? Booty from Spain? How does this imply anything Egyptian?

An old Greek coin was found. Not mentioned is that the coin may have fallen out of a collector's pocket the day before.

Ancient coins are found all the time. These things are valuable, and they get stolen (or lost.) Your source doesn't even provide the details that would imply that these coins were left by their original owners. IOW, some dude might have found a coin that his neighbor lost last week. That is all that is necessary for your source to be able to say that "a Grecian coin c. 23 BC. ... (was) found in Cairns"

A jade ankh was found in 1964 near Murgon? You could find them everywhere you went in 1964 in San Francisco!

There is a "story" about some "cattleman" that used solid gold dinnerware? Hey, there's a "story" about a white haired, bearded fat guy in a red suit that comes to your house every Christmas Eve. Well, maybe not your house.

I started this thread to make people aware of these things, not to have to constantly answer to you.

To make people aware of what things? Hoaxed up crappy forgeries of supposed Egyptian hieroglyphics that translate to gibberish and betray a sorry knowledge of Ancient Egyptians in their doped-up or drunken forgers?

To make people aware of how naive and gullible you are?

To make people aware of your insignificant skills in making your own case?

It is my aim to provide, as near to the original post as possible, the skeptical argument in cases like the one you have put forward here. The reason for this is that Unexplained-Mysteries' posts often come up in Google searches. I have spent a lot of time trying to find the mainstream explanations for a great many pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical claims. This is why, usually, I include links to sources that confirm what I'm saying. I don't want people in the future to have to scour the internet for hours, weeding through a million cut-and-paste copies of the same old tired and erroneous claims just to find one single website that refutes it. Hence, when I see these claims, I try to refute them as quickly as possible, with links, so that in the future a truly open-minded person can decide for himself without having to spend the rest of the day (or week in some cases) Googling variations of word strings.

If you re read my intro to this thread I do mention not to dismiss it because of the mention of the Gympie Pyramids because I do know they are supposedly made by Italian vineyards owners so didn't want anyone to think it was a valid point in this thread.

Yet you went ahead and put it in your quote as if it were real, didn't you?

Me saying I refuse to believe all this is fake is ridiculous to jump on, OK, maybe I should have said I do not want to accept this is all fake. Nit picking again I see.

Maybe nitpicking to you. But read what you said here. Whether you "refuse to" believe or merely "do not want" to believe, you are still expressing your extreme bias towards nonsensical pseudoarchaeology. One wonders if you have ever even attempted to discover what it is that "mainstream" Archaeology has to say on any topic.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone

And it's a darn good thing because you ain't even approached it...

you are the one discounting it all so you show me the actual validated proof that these heiroglyphics are fake.

"Validated proof that these hieroglyphics are fake???" You mean, as opposed to your "validated" proof that they are genuine?

Since you will not accept the word of people that can actually read hieroglyphics, I'm not sure what would constitute such a proof. I submit that you'll have to prove it to yourself by learning how to read Egyptian hieroglyphics. Believe it or not, this can actually be done online at a couple of different sites, at no charge.

Of course, you'll have to take the instructor's word for how to do it.

Harte

[The Puzzler]

Read the info at these links:

emails from an Australian Egyptologist

From Jim Loy's Pseudoscience pages

From "Forgeries, Hoaxes and Curiosities"

Article at Ozemail - note the disclaimer at the top of the page

A local Aussie says all the locals know these are fakes - pics at Webshots of the hieroglyphics

If you actually bother to look into what I've just handed you on a silver platter (and believe me, it's much harder to find the truth about these silly things than it is to find some ridiculous claim about them,) then you'll learn that at least one person has been caught red-handed actually carving glyphs at this location.

But don't take my word for it (as if you'd even consider such a thing! ) Why not talk to several Australian Egyptologists? Maybe you can see if, as your sources claim, all this "evidence" has been "ignored" by the mainstream:

E-Mail Addresses of several Australian Egyptologists

For the sake of clarity, I'll quote a few of the things you said that might be true:

I'll stop there.

A shipwreck and possibly associated cutlery and Spanish coins. And? Booty from Spain? How does this imply anything Egyptian?

An old Greek coin was found. Not mentioned is that the coin may have fallen out of a collector's pocket the day before.

Ancient coins are found all the time. These things are valuable, and they get stolen (or lost.) Your source doesn't even provide the details that would imply that these coins were left by their original owners. IOW, some dude might have found a coin that his neighbor lost last week. That is all that is necessary for your source to be able to say that "a Grecian coin c. 23 BC. ... (was) found in Cairns"

A jade ankh was found in 1964 near Murgon? You could find them everywhere you went in 1964 in San Francisco!

There is a "story" about some "cattleman" that used solid gold dinnerware? Hey, there's a "story" about a white haired, bearded fat guy in a red suit that comes to your house every Christmas Eve. Well, maybe not your house.

To make people aware of what things? Hoaxed up crappy forgeries of supposed Egyptian hieroglyphics that translate to gibberish and betray a sorry knowledge of Ancient Egyptians in their doped-up or drunken forgers?

To make people aware of how naive and gullible you are?

To make people aware of your insignificant skills in making your own case?

It is my aim to provide, as near to the original post as possible, the skeptical argument in cases like the one you have put forward here. The reason for this is that Unexplained-Mysteries' posts often come up in Google searches. I have spent a lot of time trying to find the mainstream explanations for a great many pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical claims. This is why, usually, I include links to sources that confirm what I'm saying. I don't want people in the future to have to scour the internet for hours, weeding through a million cut-and-paste copies of the same old tired and erroneous claims just to find one single website that refutes it. Hence, when I see these claims, I try to refute them as quickly as possible, with links, so that in the future a truly open-minded person can decide for himself without having to spend the rest of the day (or week in some cases) Googling variations of word strings.

Yet you went ahead and put it in your quote as if it were real, didn't you?

Maybe nitpicking to you. But read what you said here. Whether you "refuse to" believe or merely "do not want" to believe, you are still expressing your extreme bias towards nonsensical pseudoarchaeology. One wonders if you have ever even attempted to discover what it is that "mainstream" Archaeology has to say on any topic.

And it's a darn good thing because you ain't even approached it...

"Validated proof that these hieroglyphics are fake???" You mean, as opposed to your "validated" proof that they are genuine?

Since you will not accept the word of people that can actually read hieroglyphics, I'm not sure what would constitute such a proof. I submit that you'll have to prove it to yourself by learning how to read Egyptian hieroglyphics. Believe it or not, this can actually be done online at a couple of different sites, at no charge.

Of course, you'll have to take the instructor's word for how to do it.

Harte

OK Harte, I've had enough, I'm naive, gullible and stupid, you win. It's all crap. Happy???

[Harte]

OK Harte, I've had enough, I'm naive, gullible and stupid, you win. It's all crap. Happy???

Ecstatic!

Welcome to the real world.

Lemme buy you a beer.

Harte

[isis-999]

This came out a while back and was a really big deal until they proved it to be a fake....I can't recall all the detail's but i do remember that it was a set up and not real.......

I posted this on page two and it took another 5 page's to prove it......ROFL.......

[Harte]

I posted this on page two and it took another 5 page's to prove it......ROFL.......

isis-999,

It just goes to show the extent to which the "true believers" are willing to go to avoid coming to the realization - the existential moment - that they've not only been lied to, they also were foolish enough to fall for it. Not that any of us are exempt from being foolish in this way.

Harte

[The Puzzler]

Ecstatic!

Welcome to the real world.

Lemme buy you a beer.

Harte

I don't drink beer but I will have a nice glass of wine. It's usually when I've had too much wine that I come up with all my 'nonsense' ideas so you probably won't like having a drink with me anyways. Never mind Harte, you can always find me on here discussing more stupid, naive ideas so I'm sure we will catch up again soon. Cheerio.

[Harte]

I don't drink beer but I will have a nice glass of wine. It's usually when I've had too much wine that I come up with all my 'nonsense' ideas so you probably won't like having a drink with me anyways. Never mind Harte, you can always find me on here discussing more stupid, naive ideas so I'm sure we will catch up again soon. Cheerio.

We...,

As is befitting of the greater moments in life, I have, in my signature, forever immortalized the moment the scales fell from your eyes.

Harte

[The Puzzler]

Geez Harte, I dunno what to say.......

[carlinspace]

hi weareasllsuckers. I was reading this forum and thought I may as well register and leave a message. I live by those heiroglyphics (about 30km away). They are in the bush between Kariong and woy woy. I have known about them for over 10years now. I dont know if they are real or not (im not a scientist) but they are very convincing. I have shown alot of my friends theses heiroglyphs and they are all pretty stunned by it. Since the time Ive been going up there the following has happened. 1. Someone scraped moss away on one of the rocks (with the glyphs but on the eastern side) and revealed a sun (setting or rising) supposedly facing east (It looks facing east but i havent takena compass up there yet). Also at the top through a gap and around the side a bit someone has dug a 2metre deep whole that goes under the massive stones with the glyphs on them. I havent been down there it doesnt look safe enough. Also one of my fgriends told me he lit a fire inside an over hang there and the smoke went up through the rocks (he reckons it is hollow inside??). Recently (about 6months ago) I went up there and saw at the dirt line of the glyphs, half a glyph sticking out and i scraped away the dirt and it seemed to go down further. I'm going up there soon with a shovel to carefully dig down a bit and see how much further down it goes. I've met a couple of local aboriginals up there (from some aboriginal board of trust or something) and they said it is common knowledge to them that people came on a boat with a heart beat (drums) and made friend with the local aboriginals. These people were egyptian and they came on a Phonecian boat that was damaged and for some reason unfixable.

A person I met once said his father found some caves in the Wondabyn area (near woy woy) in which he found an old coin. That guy is always camping up there (i hike through there often) and is looking for those caves. I went looking with him once but never found anything.

As far as no one knowing about it goes, the Australian Government (being British Commonwealth) doesn't recognise anything non-aboriginal as it will alter British historical fact.

I dont know how real any of this is but I believe it and thought you might want to know about it.

[The Puzzler]

Thank you thank you for that Carlinspace and welcome to Unexplained Mysteries and what an honour to have you register because of my post, cool! I loved hearing that as it was first hand news. Thank you for your support and how interesting that the Aboriginal men mentioned the Egyptians, which gives me an idea, since I live in a community with many Aboriginals I will talk to some and see if they have any stories too about the arrival of Egyptians, Phoenicans, anyone before whites got here. True about them not recognising anything non Aboriginal, what a tin of worms that would open! Please let me know if you do go back up and how you go, thanks alot for your info.

[apollyon]

I've met a couple of local aboriginals up there (from some aboriginal board of trust or something) and they said it is common knowledge to them that people came on a boat with a heart beat (drums) and made friend with the local aboriginals. These people were egyptian and they came on a Phonecian boat that was damaged and for some reason unfixable.

ok so I have to ask this

how do a couple of Aboriginals know it was a phonecian boat ?

this puts the arrival somewhere around 1500bce a time when there was no way on earth of local indigenous cultures being able to communicate with anyone from halfway across the world

i.e. it was unlikely that anyone in Australia could speak ancient egyptian or phonecian at that time

so claiming 3500 years later that anyone walking around today can name the country of origin is a bit suspicious

you sure they werent just having you on

when you turned away did you hear sniggering ?