kmt_sesh Posted May 15, 2018 #551 Share Posted May 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Harte said: IIRC, it was around 800 BC when the Egyptians met the Greeks - officially met with documented evidence, anyway. There wasn't an actual "Greece" then or before that, so they wouldn't have thought of it that way. Harte That's about when the Greeks first started to send out colonies across the Mediterranean, including North Africa (in what's now Libya). But you can extend that back through Mycenaean times, since they were Greeks, too. That puts you in the 15th century BCE. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 15, 2018 #552 Share Posted May 15, 2018 I didn't mean to imply that the mummy wrapped in Etruscan writing is from the 7th century BCE. It's not. It's a mummy from the 3rd century BCE (as I recall). This was when the Greeks were ruling Egypt. The mummy is now in Croatia. https://www.absolute-croatia.com/travel-magazine/arts-culture/museums-galleries/item/the-zagreb-mummy I blame Harte for my lack of clarity. I have to blame someone, right? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 16, 2018 #553 Share Posted May 16, 2018 3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: That's about when the Greeks first started to send out colonies across the Mediterranean, including North Africa (in what's now Libya). But you can extend that back through Mycenaean times, since they were Greeks, too. That puts you in the 15th century BCE. Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean? To me that's the relevant point of view. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 16, 2018 #554 Share Posted May 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Harte said: Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean? To me that's the relevant point of view. Harte The Egyptian word for Mycenaean translates as "gyro-eatin' barbarian." Actually I don't know how the Egyptians considered them, but certainly not as Egyptian. They would've been seen as "something else" and foreign, which in the Egyptian view was a negative. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 16, 2018 #555 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Can't really blame them for that. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 16, 2018 #556 Share Posted May 16, 2018 9 hours ago, Harte said: Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean? To me that's the relevant point of view. Harte sorry dude but you're making this up as you go along... the Egyptians had trade and war with their neighbours to the north. whether they were called Greeks, sea peoples or Mycenaeans they came under the same umbrella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 16, 2018 #557 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them. Minoans too. And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples. "Neighbors to the North" includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you? Harte 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harry Posted May 16, 2018 #558 Share Posted May 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, Harte said: Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them. Minoans too. And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples. "Neighbors to the North" includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you? Harte You make a good point, however the prevailing winds of popular and unlearned opinion should not be allowed to influence scholarly classification. The Mycenaeans were ethnically Greek, as were the Dorian invaders which brought about that civilization's downfall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 16, 2018 #559 Share Posted May 16, 2018 At the time, there were Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians, etc. Ethnically Greek, yes. But vastly different regarding trade, aggression, and other things. And a whole bunch of the Sea Peoples confederation wasn't remotely Greek. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 17, 2018 #560 Share Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Harte said: Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them. Minoans too. And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples. "Neighbors to the North" includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you? Harte lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war. since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek... Edited May 17, 2018 by Captain Risky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 17, 2018 #561 Share Posted May 17, 2018 18 hours ago, Lord Harry said: You make a good point, however the prevailing winds of popular and unlearned opinion should not be allowed to influence scholarly classification. The Mycenaeans were ethnically Greek, as were the Dorian invaders which brought about that civilization's downfall. progressive migrations of Greek tribes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 17, 2018 #562 Share Posted May 17, 2018 11 hours ago, Harte said: At the time, there were Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians, etc. Ethnically Greek, yes. But vastly different regarding trade, aggression, and other things. And a whole bunch of the Sea Peoples confederation wasn't remotely Greek. Harte okay lets look at this from another angle... the Harris papyrus clearly states that Rameses the 3rd fought the same sea peoples on their islands and enslaved them. so assuming that the ancient Egyptians of the time were not great sea farers it would have been a relative short distance from Egypt. the only area within striking distance of the coastal Egyptian maritime navy would have been the Aegean, which was Minoan, Mycenaeans and other various Greek tribes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 17, 2018 #563 Share Posted May 17, 2018 There were a bunch of Philistines in the Sea People's makeup. The Sea People's battles fought by Ramses III were all invasions of Egypt. Many were enslaved in those invasions. The Pharaoh replied to the last invasion of his reign with raids of his own, but nobody knows what lands he raided. The Sea Peoples held many islands as well as other territory. Harte 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 17, 2018 #564 Share Posted May 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Captain Risky said: lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war. since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek... What Trojan war are you talking about? The myth that was made into a Greek story? Harte 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted May 17, 2018 #565 Share Posted May 17, 2018 56 minutes ago, Harte said: What Trojan war are you talking about? The myth that was made into a Greek story? Harte Hi Harte There was a recent price war between Trojans and Ramses at the drug store last week maybe that is what he is referring to. jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 17, 2018 #566 Share Posted May 17, 2018 I was thinking more along the lines of NCAA football, specifically the Pac10 Harte 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 17, 2018 #567 Share Posted May 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Captain Risky said: lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war. since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek... No one is certain to this day of the precise composition of the Sea Peoples. A Greek contingent was almost certainly among them, following the collapse of Mycenaean cultural centers. But in total the Sea Peoples may have contained ethnicities all the way from Etruria to Asia Minor. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 17, 2018 #568 Share Posted May 17, 2018 8 hours ago, Harte said: What Trojan war are you talking about? The myth that was made into a Greek story? Harte regardless if it was myth or not the fact is that Homer clearly states that the Myceanean king and his army were Greeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 17, 2018 #569 Share Posted May 17, 2018 3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: No one is certain to this day of the precise composition of the Sea Peoples. A Greek contingent was almost certainly among them, following the collapse of Mycenaean cultural centers. But in total the Sea Peoples may have contained ethnicities all the way from Etruria to Asia Minor. most certainly. But the majority would have been around the Aegean basin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted May 17, 2018 #570 Share Posted May 17, 2018 12 hours ago, Captain Risky said: lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war. since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek... ...if you're somehow using Homer as an historical source, you're not really using modern /or/ period sources correctly, and so not in a position to be dictating ethnicities of Greek subcultures. 7 hours ago, Harte said: I was thinking more along the lines of NCAA football, specifically the Pac10 Harte Pac-12. I know. I see signs and banners all the damn time. --Jaylemurph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 17, 2018 #571 Share Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm I think it was last year that genetic research was published that shows an affinity between Minoans and Mycenaeans, to a degree most had not realized. It seems the two groups were genetic cousins. Here's an abstract about it (I'm tempted to buy the article): https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310 Editing to add another good article about the gentic research: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170802134718.htm Edited May 17, 2018 by kmt_sesh 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted May 17, 2018 #572 Share Posted May 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said: Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm I think it was last year that genetic research was published that shows an affinity between Minoans and Mycenaeans, to a degree most had not realized. It seems the two groups were genetic cousins. Here's an abstract about it (I'm tempted to buy the article): https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310 Editing to add another good article about the gentic research: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170802134718.htm Hey, if you want a copy of the article, let me know and I'll send you a PDF. --Jaylemurph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 17, 2018 #573 Share Posted May 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said: Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm One of the most magnificent combat scenes ever was found in that grave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted May 18, 2018 #574 Share Posted May 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Piney said: One of the most magnificent combat scenes ever was found in that grave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate Wonderful! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted May 18, 2018 #575 Share Posted May 18, 2018 10 hours ago, jaylemurph said: ...if you're somehow using Homer as an historical source, you're not really using modern /or/ period sources correctly, and so not in a position to be dictating ethnicities of Greek subcultures. Pac-12. I know. I see signs and banners all the damn time. --Jaylemurph Yeah, but two of them don't really count. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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