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The Puzzler

Egyptian evidence in Australia

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Kenemet
27 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

Noticed a mistake in the first few paragraphs of the article. The author claims that most Egyptologists are unable to read the earliest version of the Egyptian script since they are trained to read Middle Egyptian and the progressively later scripts. This isn't true, as Old Egyptian differs relatively little from late Egyptian. The major differences being the former triples the determinative to indicate the plural and uses archaic, though nevertheless recognizable pronouns.

 

Edited: Djedefre reigned during the Fourth, NOT the Third Dynasty.

I missed that, but yeah... the article is wrong in that respect.

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kmt_sesh
On May 30, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Kenemet said:

I missed that, but yeah... the article is wrong in that respect.

That's an oft-repeated yarn about Gosford: the glyphs are in an archaic style and can't be read by most Egyptologists. It's a convenient excuse to explain away a sad hoax, and it doesn't work. You see it in most pro-Gosford nonsense., typically written by people with no understanding of hieroglyphs. Then there's Ray Johnson, who styled himself as an "Egyptologist." He's a well-known Australian hoaxster (now deceased, I believe) who has no education or training, and yet he was able to achieve a full "translation" of these glyphs no one else can read. What a farce. I'm sure many of you have seen his fanciful "translation."

Sometimes the Gosford glyphs are supposed to be from Dynasty 3, and sometimes Dynasty 4 (it varies according to who's writing about them). It's true the hieroglyphic script was not standardized till Dynasty 4, so hieroglyphs before that can be tricky to read. But an Egyptologist doesn't require specialized training to read Early Dynastic. The oldest writing in our exhibit is from a Dynasty 3 stela, and I've translated it (although some of the glyphs at the bottom are worn off, but that's another matter). I'm trained in Middle Egyptian.

Lord Harry is right that knowing Middle Egyptian will enable you to read most Old Kingdom texts. I've worked on some of the Pyramid Texts, for instance. That's how we nerds practice. I would disagree about Late Egyptian, however. The later the script was written, the more difficult it is for me to translate. Ptolemaic inscriptions in Late Egyptian are often very tricky for me. Late Egyptian first appeared in the New Kingdom, and there came to be noticeable differences in pronouns and other grammatical things. Luckily, a lot of the later scribes still loved Middle Egyptian and continued to use it, for which I'm always grateful.

Sorry, just in the mood to drone on like a bore tonight.

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Lord Harry
On 6/1/2018 at 4:23 AM, kmt_sesh said:

That's an oft-repeated yarn about Gosford: the glyphs are in an archaic style and can't be read by most Egyptologists. It's a convenient excuse to explain away a sad hoax, and it doesn't work. You see it in most pro-Gosford nonsense., typically written by people with no understanding of hieroglyphs. Then there's Ray Johnson, who styled himself as an "Egyptologist." He's a well-known Australian hoaxster (now deceased, I believe) who has no education or training, and yet he was able to achieve a full "translation" of these glyphs no one else can read. What a farce. I'm sure many of you have seen his fanciful "translation."

Sometimes the Gosford glyphs are supposed to be from Dynasty 3, and sometimes Dynasty 4 (it varies according to who's writing about them). It's true the hieroglyphic script was not standardized till Dynasty 4, so hieroglyphs before that can be tricky to read. But an Egyptologist doesn't require specialized training to read Early Dynastic. The oldest writing in our exhibit is from a Dynasty 3 stela, and I've translated it (although some of the glyphs at the bottom are worn off, but that's another matter). I'm trained in Middle Egyptian.

Lord Harry is right that knowing Middle Egyptian will enable you to read most Old Kingdom texts. I've worked on some of the Pyramid Texts, for instance. That's how we nerds practice. I would disagree about Late Egyptian, however. The later the script was written, the more difficult it is for me to translate. Ptolemaic inscriptions in Late Egyptian are often very tricky for me. Late Egyptian first appeared in the New Kingdom, and there came to be noticeable differences in pronouns and other grammatical things. Luckily, a lot of the later scribes still loved Middle Egyptian and continued to use it, for which I'm always grateful.

Sorry, just in the mood to drone on like a bore tonight.

He was the only one able to read and correctly interpret an "ancient" text without any formal training or education...

Hmm...Where have we heard that before? 

Edited by Lord Harry
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jaylemurph
6 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

He was the only one able to read and correctly interpret an "ancient" text without any formal training or education...

Hmm...Where have we heard that before? 

Me. I do that. All the time. But in my case, it's all pure Holy Truth put directly into my brain pan by the thoughts of the Holy Ones.

--Jaylemurph

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kmt_sesh
6 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

He was the only one able to read and correctly interpret an "ancient" text without any formal training or education...

Hmm...Where have we heard that before? 

Oh, goodness, I didn't even think of that. Now I'm in pain. Please, don't make that connection or you will suffer a geyser enema!

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kmt_sesh
2 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Me. I do that. All the time. But in my case, it's all pure Holy Truth put directly into my brain pan by the thoughts of the Holy Ones.

--Jaylemurph

Well, you're unique. No one else here is in connection with the Basset Masters.

Right into the brain pan, eh? Does it hurt?

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crystal sage
On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:15 PM, RoofGardener said:

Just popping into this thread - rather late in the day. 

The ancient Egyptians did not have ocean-going boats. If they had traveled to Australia, then they would also have traveled to southern Africa, Madagascar, the southern Middle East (Saudi etc), India, Malaysia, and the far East in general. 

(to say nothing of Europe. They didn't even cross the Mediterranean to Italy or Greece; a MUCH easier prospect).

If there are similarities of artifacts, culture, or language, between Egypt and Australia, then it is parallel development, not interaction.  

There is still the DNA evidence of people from India migrating to Australia 4000 years ago. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3670159.htm     . The Egyptians were in trade with people from India via trade routes. https://earlychurchhistory.org/commerce/trade-in-ancient-india/ 

http://www.ycmglobal.com/trade_and_commerce_in_ancient_india

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As regards the inscriptional evidences, we should say that they form the most important and reliable source of our knowledge of the early commercial history of South India. In fact, the earliest trade relations between Assyria and India are revealed by the Cuneiform Inscriptions of the Hittite Kings of Mitani, in Cappadocia, belonging to the fifteenth or fourteenth century B.C. The Nimrud Inscriptions of the Assyrian King, Tiglath Pileser III, referring to the Indian exports of the day, like spices and clothing, as having been received in Assyria as tributes from a King, by name Yakim; and the Egyptian Inscriptions of the Queen Hatshepsust, recording the monarchs expedition to Punt and the booty of cinnamon wood are very important evidence relating to South Indian international connections with the rest of the world.

image.png.13cafbbc6887ae91ad44e934ff9966a9.pnghttps://www.thoughtco.com/indian-ocean-trade-routes-195514

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Lastly, comes the Christian sacred literature: a reference to ebony, an Indian article of trade is found in "Ezekiel" XXVII. 13, having been a commodity in the trade of Tyre; a similar reference to cinnamon having become one of the ingredients of the sacred anointing oil of the Hebrew priests, in "Exodus" XXX and a specific mention in the Book of Genesis relating to the Indian merchants going to Egypt to trade doubtless establish South Indian commercial relations with Palestine and Egypt in the ancient times

 



MaritimeSpiceRoutes_small.gifhttp://www.ipekyollari.net/SilkSpiceIncenseRoutes.htm

Edited by crystal sage

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kmt_sesh
7 minutes ago, crystal sage said:

As regards the inscriptional evidences, we should say that they form the most important and reliable source of our knowledge of the early commercial history of South India. In fact, the earliest trade relations between Assyria and India are revealed by the Cuneiform Inscriptions of the Hittite Kings of Mitani, in Cappadocia, belonging to the fifteenth or fourteenth century B.C. The Nimrud Inscriptions of the Assyrian King, Tiglath Pileser III, referring to the Indian exports of the day, like spices and clothing, as having been received in Assyria as tributes from a King, by name Yakim; and the Egyptian Inscriptions of the Queen Hatshepsust, recording the monarchs expedition to Punt and the booty of cinnamon wood are very important evidence relating to South Indian international connections with the rest of the world.

Seems an unreliable source you found. The Hittite kings of Mitani? The Hitties (Anatolia) and Mitani (northern Iraq) had nothing to do with each other, except for violent military campaigns against each other. Totally different cultures, totally different languages. It's possible the Mitani had some interactions with people from India (more likely the Hindu-Kush), but the Assyrians did not.

And with certainty Punt had nothing at all to do with India. The people of Punt, like the people of Egypt, are Africans. Isotopic analysis has placed Punt in Eritrea/Ethiopia.

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toyomotor

As regards Archeology, I think it's wise never to say never.

Almost weekly, what we've believed as fact for hundreds or even thousands of years, is being shown to be fallacy.

Reports on archeological matters always makes use of terms like "believe", "suggestive" and "could be".

While it's possible that Egyptians visited Australia, it's highly improbable.

Evidence of a genetic link between some people in India is not surprising-if one accepts the Out of Africa Coastal Migration school of thought.

As for Punt, it's still shown on modern maps at the very Horn of Africa.

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crystal sage
3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Seems an unreliable source you found. The Hittite kings of Mitani? The Hitties (Anatolia) and Mitani (northern Iraq) had nothing to do with each other, except for violent military campaigns against each other. Totally different cultures, totally different languages. It's possible the Mitani had some interactions with people from India (more likely the Hindu-Kush), but the Assyrians did not.

And with certainty Punt had nothing at all to do with India. The people of Punt, like the people of Egypt, are Africans. Isotopic analysis has placed Punt in Eritrea/Ethiopia.

With the DNA evidence of people in India migrating to Australia during those times.. ( around 4000 years ago)  and the known trade between Egypt and India during those same times... With each of these countries both motivated towards finding the next biggest and best thing to trade.. ( Even the ancient Chinese Emperors often sent scouts around the world to find rare plants.. metals.. riches .. )  noting the ocean currents and the known  trade routes..  it is easy to imagine rogue landings on Australian Coasts. ( Captain Cooks modern discovery of Australia was pure accident too) The fact that there have been mass migrations to Australia over 65 thousand years  means that Australia at some time was well known.   

Note also that there were over 600 aboriginal tribes in Australia.. all with different languages.. customs.. even warring tribes that have been enemies for thousands of years.. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_languages   http://www.aboriginalheritage.tas.gov.au/cultural-heritage/aboriginal-languages-and-trade 

http://taungurung.net/2011/04/taungurung_a_brief_history.html  https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/language/   http://aboutworldlanguages.com/indigenous-languages-of-australia

 

And the Siberian link to Australian Aboriginals from 44,000 years ago..  http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2011/09/dna-confirms-aboriginal-culture-one-of-earths-oldest 

 

 

 

I just had to share the counting system >  :)  http://blogs.slq.qld.gov.au/ilq/2014/09/09/indigenous-number-systems/ 

Edited by crystal sage
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Harte
7 hours ago, crystal sage said:

With the DNA evidence of people in India migrating to Australia during those times.. ( around 4000 years ago)

Your link only admits to the possibility of migration. It also gives another way the DNA could have gotten there.

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  and the known trade between Egypt and India during those same times...

Your own referenced links show that these trade contacts certainly weren't happening "during those same times" as the proposed migration, and also that they happened FAR too late to account for the stories told about these glyphs. The oldest reference to trade you used was Ezekiel, and that book is set in the 6th century BC. Nobody knows when it was written down in the form we have it today, but the story itself includes its own timeline because of the setting.

Harte

Edited by Harte
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crystal sage
On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:01 AM, Harte said:

Your link only admits to the possibility of migration. It also gives another way the DNA could have gotten there.

Your own referenced links show that these trade contacts certainly weren't happening "during those same times" as the proposed migration, and also that they happened FAR too late to account for the stories told about these glyphs. The oldest reference to trade you used was Ezekiel, and that book is set in the 6th century BC. Nobody knows when it was written down in the form we have it today, but the story itself includes its own timeline because of the setting.

Harte

Just because they were travel maps / routes of those times.. doesn't mean that those routes first occurred during those times.   The Gobleki Tepe central Asia discovery of  evidence of 12,000 year old ( pre ice age ? ) evidence of  mass human integration, socializing , civilizations ( once they uncover the other 95% of the dig more insights will be uncovered  that could even back date some of the ancient Carpadocia underground cities.. were they created ( note how close they were to Gobleki tepe )  for survival during the ice age.. not just for protection of the  tens of thousands of people  during religious oppression)    opens up so many  unexplored possibilities of the ancient history of mankind.   Have we explored if similar  underground cities existed in other parts of the world to survive the ice age ? We know there are underground caverns that  have lakes that are large enough to house whole cities in many places around the world.  Also the interesting new discoveries of  huge 2000 plus year old underground man made giant tunnel systems in China. The fantastic technology of at least 3000, to 5000 year old  still viable underground aqueduct systems in Iran that stretch for thousands of miles. The technology was there..  https://www.destinationiran.com/kariz-qanat-in-iran.htm 

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his system must have been started at least 5000 years ago in Iran. Kariz system is usually found in central Iran toward the east and southeast of Iran.

Some existing ancient example of water provision in Iran are: old Zavareh kariz dating back to 5000 years ago, 350m depth master well of Gonabad Qanat dating back to 2500 years ago, 40km long a aqueduct of Chogha Zanbil water refinery installation dating at least back to 3250 years ago and the 1000-year-old water distribution network of Milan village in East Azerbaijan province

Imagine !!!!  thousands of years ago they had the technology to dig qanats 350 meters underground that went for hundreds of miles..  !!!  That are still viable today!!!!!  Can we do this today with the alleged tools we assume they had back then ??? 

 

If they could achieve all of this many thousands of years ago.. building ships that can carry them to all parts of the world are the least of their skills.. ;) there are also rumors that these underground tunnels were created to  go under the seas to link lands . Remember they could create qanats that go 350 meters underground !!!  

 

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crystal sage

Like I said there were lots of rumors.. of these underground tunnels that went under the seas to connect lands. 

http://www.italymagazine.com/news/hoax-or-not-underground-tunnel-discovered-between-sicily-and-calabria

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A map of the St. Callixtus catacombs tunnels, which stretch nine miles over four levels and 90 acres. (Photo courtesy of Notre Dame Architecture Library)

 

 

A map of the St. Calixtus catacombs tunnels

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/bourbon-tunnel

800px-Galleria_borbonica_-_War_refuge_%28Naples%29.jpg1280px-Galleria_borbonica_-_Stairs_%28Naples%29.jpg

An indication of the scales of some of the ancient European tunnels. 

 Secret Underground tunnels were a common solution  in ancient and even the more modern times .. were these just  reworking  and updating even more ancient passage ways ? I bet once they explore these to ancient underground maps they may find that they link to even older maps.. ( It may explain some of the thousands of sink holes that are appearing around the world.. especially with all the fracking that is destabilizing  the balance of the lands and causing so many earth quakes and tremors, and maybe even wildfires). 

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The tunnel was dug out of the volcanic rock below the city, connected to the existing, early-17th-century Carmignano aqueduct system. However, the king died before the tunnel was completed, and it was left unfinished and largely forgotten until World War II. 

During the war the subterranean corridors and neighboring cisterns were used as air raid shelters, housing up to 10,000 Neapolitans.

https://www.history.com/news/8-mysterious-underground-cities

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20161011-an-ancient-world-concealed-underground

 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/rome-s-tremendous-tunnel-the-ancient-world-s-longest-underground-aqueduct-a-612718.html

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170307-an-ancient-oasis-in-chinas-remote-desert

Quote

 

 

In 1951, a house located 2.5 kilometers outside of Yongqing township abruptly caved in, exposing an underground cave some 150 square meters in size. Within the cave, dozens of small doors, each opening to a passageway, were found. Inside were small huts with half burnt candles and lamps on heatable brick beds.

Upon further investigation, experts found that ancient war passages were spread throughout Yongqing County in an area covering approximately 300 square kilometers.

 

 

The Passages Spread Over 1,600 Square Kilometers

Experts have dug out similar war passages in Yongqing, Xiong county, and Bazhou. The ancient war passages are about 65 kilometers from east to west, 25 kilometers from north to south, which extend through 1,600 square kilometers. When the border between the Song Dynasty and the Liao Dynasty went as far west as Rongcheng county and Xushui county, it is thought that many ancient war passages existed in that area. How far the ancient war passages extended eastwards from Yongqing is still unknown.https://www.riseearth.com/2018/03/hidden-for-thousand-years-chinas.html

 

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/longyou-caves

 

 

TEXNIT%C3%81%20%CE%A3%CE%A0%E1%B8%A2%CE%9B%CE%91%CE%99%CE%91%20LONGYOU%20GROTTOES.jpg

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crystal sage
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e Uluburun shipwreck, found off the coast of Kaş, is around 3,500 years old, while the sunken ship of Hatshepsut, the fifth pharaoh of Ancient Egypt’s 18th dynasty, is dated to be around 150 years older  

https://www.lgcnews.com/4000-year-old-shipwreck-found-izmir/

 

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The professor that said materials removed from seawater must be cleaned of salt to prevent further decay. This procedure is carried out in a large restoration and conservation laboratory at the recently opened Mustafa Vehbi Koç Maritime Archaeology Research Centre and Archaeopark. The process of removing a sunken ship from the water can take approximately seven to eight years, he said.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=22892

 

Quote

Erkanal said that through its discoveries, the team is working to make a sea chart of the region. “We’re also working on a project to turn the region, which has a lot of important [information] for world maritime history, into an experimental archaeology centre,” he said.

The team also plans to remove and display an Ottoman ship from the site next year. Citing only a few other Ottoman-era shipwrecks that have been discovered in Limantepe, Erkanal said there is a “significant deficiency” in archaeological records.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/4000-year-old-sunken-ship-found-turkey-among-oldest-world-002044 

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/money-used-by-sumerians-in-mesopotamia-says-expert-60909

Quote

Erkanal highlighted economic development in the region 5,000 years ago and said the monetary unit was discovered at that time by Sumerians, leading to the Lydians producing coins later on.

Economic development 5,000 years ago led to the construction of big structures like a ‘winter palace’ as a result of the trade of production surplus, and money was used for the first time. The first materials used in producing money were rings made of gold, silver and other metals. These were developed and turned into bullions made of the same materials. This was the first monetary unit discovered by Sumerians, and the Lydians also went on to print money and produce coins,” he said. 

Economic life

Erkanal also spoke about economic life in Mesopotamian urban centers and the birth of writing techniques. “Production surpluses in the cities were originally collected in temples. But a new system was developed

 

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Kenemet
1 hour ago, crystal sage said:

Just because they were travel maps / routes of those times.. doesn't mean that those routes first occurred during those times.   The Gobleki Tepe central Asia discovery of  evidence of 12,000 year old ( pre ice age ? ) evidence of  mass human integration, socializing , civilizations ( once they uncover the other 95% of the dig more insights will be uncovered  that could even back date some of the ancient Carpadocia underground cities.. were they created ( note how close they were to Gobleki tepe ) 

The cities of Cappadocia date to 800 BC or thereabouts.  Far, far younger than 12,000 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city#History

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crystal sage
7 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The cities of Cappadocia date to 800 BC or thereabouts.  Far, far younger than 12,000 BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_underground_city#History

 

:) sorry... got distracted with this http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/could-this-stunning-bracelet-be-65000-to-70000-years-old/    when I was exploring for latest updates on the 4000 year old ship found in Turkey..  

 

I have read that these underground cities are much older than that.. https://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2017/04/09/underground-city-of-cappadocia-turkey/

Quote

Archaeologists have managed to date the caves to around 4000 B.C though they are not entirely sure for a few reasons. The system of caves spans over 7 kilometers under Earth’s surface, and reaches depths of almost 400 feet with its 18 levels that could once house 20,000 people. A large circular boulder could cover each entrance to the caves in order to enclose the system. This led archeologists, historians, and geophysicists to infer that these systems were not only used when environmental/natural disaster occurred, but when there were raids or times of war and conflict. Included in the 18 levels are residential areas, tombs, kitchens, ventilation shafts, chapels, bathrooms, wells, well tanks, and at least 30 major water tunnels

 

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Kenemet
11 hours ago, crystal sage said:

 

:) sorry... got distracted with this http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/could-this-stunning-bracelet-be-65000-to-70000-years-old/    when I was exploring for latest updates on the 4000 year old ship found in Turkey..  

 

I have read that these underground cities are much older than that.. https://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2017/04/09/underground-city-of-cappadocia-turkey/

 

The Vassar page you linked doesn't have any first order sources, and cites newspaper articles (and doesn't say where they got that estimation.)

I did find this in a scholarly paper

  • The early Christian Cave Dwellings Though the tuffa region of Cappadocia was probably temporarily settled as early as the neolithic period and gained strategic importance in hetitty and phrygian times, the earliest historic descriptions we find is from Zoroastrian peoples that lived on the hill side of the volcano Erciyas Dagi, worshipping a fire-cult but not yet having developed an expressive system of cave settlement. The actual settlement of the area in the tuffa region of Cappadocia begins, as far as we know, with the arrival of ascetic hermits in the first century AD. who moved up to the remote valleys to be able to live a god fearing anchorites life. During the following decades and centuries, more and more Christians moved to Cappadocia hiding in the soft tuffa stone from the invading Persian and Arabic troops

Source: http://andusemge.de/Texte/IASTEBerkeley1992.pdf

Checking other places, I see general agreement that temporary shelters were hacked out in neolithic and later (the 4k figure) but that the real tunnel building didn't begin until the first century AD.  So in a sense, we're both right.  There were some hand-dug caves around 4,000 BC...but the cave systems weren't really dug until after 0 AD.

Edited by Kenemet
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jaylemurph
50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The Vassar page you linked doesn't have any first order sources, and cites newspaper articles (and doesn't say where they got that estimation.)

I did find this in a scholarly paper

  • The early Christian Cave Dwellings Though the tuffa region of Cappadocia was probably temporarily settled as early as the neolithic period and gained strategic importance in hetitty and phrygian times, the earliest historic descriptions we find is from Zoroastrian peoples that lived on the hill side of the volcano Erciyas Dagi, worshipping a fire-cult but not yet having developed an expressive system of cave settlement. The actual settlement of the area in the tuffa region of Cappadocia begins, as far as we know, with the arrival of ascetic hermits in the first century AD. who moved up to the remote valleys to be able to live a god fearing anchorites life. During the following decades and centuries, more and more Christians moved to Cappadocia hiding in the soft tuffa stone from the invading Persian and Arabic troops

Source: http://andusemge.de/Texte/IASTEBerkeley1992.pdf

Checking other places, I see general agreement that temporary shelters were hacked out in neolithic and later (the 4k figure) but that the real tunnel building didn't begin until the first century AD.  So in a sense, we're both right.  There were some hand-dug caves around 4,000 BC...but the cave systems weren't really dug until after 0 AD.

How about 1 AD?

:)

--Jaylemurph

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crystal sage
8 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The Vassar page you linked doesn't have any first order sources, and cites newspaper articles (and doesn't say where they got that estimation.)

I did find this in a scholarly paper

  • The early Christian Cave Dwellings Though the tuffa region of Cappadocia was probably temporarily settled as early as the neolithic period and gained strategic importance in hetitty and phrygian times, the earliest historic descriptions we find is from Zoroastrian peoples that lived on the hill side of the volcano Erciyas Dagi, worshipping a fire-cult but not yet having developed an expressive system of cave settlement. The actual settlement of the area in the tuffa region of Cappadocia begins, as far as we know, with the arrival of ascetic hermits in the first century AD. who moved up to the remote valleys to be able to live a god fearing anchorites life. During the following decades and centuries, more and more Christians moved to Cappadocia hiding in the soft tuffa stone from the invading Persian and Arabic troops

Source: http://andusemge.de/Texte/IASTEBerkeley1992.pdf

Checking other places, I see general agreement that temporary shelters were hacked out in neolithic and later (the 4k figure) but that the real tunnel building didn't begin until the first century AD.  So in a sense, we're both right.  There were some hand-dug caves around 4,000 BC...but the cave systems weren't really dug until after 0 AD.

The key words here.. are .. as far a we know...   :)   Of course with increasing use and expanding populations, they would have updated.. renovated.. expanded the cave systems..  as the years progressed and the need for underground shelter increased.  They key thing to explore here though is why Gobleki Tepe was deliberately dug over to protect itself from oncoming ice age ? Or were there other threats.. eg.. ( from other links.. comets and asteroids that seemed to mark or coincide with the demise and growth of civilizations.. ( I believe there was a considerable thread discussing this idea here)  The posts of Gobleki Tepe indicated that there could have been domed rooves.. that maybe artificial protective mounds were created over this ancient 12,000 year old gathering place.. city.. ( remember only a small percentage of this total dig has been explored so far .. so indications of parallel communities.. cities.. dwellings are indicated.. ) Have they dug down further and explored for connecting underground cave systems.. cities there yet ? 

The interesting connection to the nearby underground cities http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3024908/Builders-stumble-underground-CITY-Turkey-5-000-year-old-complex-sheltered-thousands-against-invaders.html

https://www.history.com/news/vast-underground-city-found-in-turkey-may-be-one-of-the-worlds-largest

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Turkey’s Cappadocia region has long been designated a World Heritage site for its dazzling rock formations and more than 200 underground cities and villages, but according to government officials, a new discovery in Nevşehir Province could be the most extraordinary ancient find to date. The previously unknown subterranean metropolis was discovered by accident during a massive urban renewal project by the Housing Development Administration of Turkey, more commonly known as TOKI. Workers had demolished several hundred buildings and begun prepping for new construction when they stumbled upon a honeycombed network of cave entrances, tunnels and hand carved chambers in the area surrounding a Byzantine-era hilltop castle.

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Archaeologists suspect the Phrygians, Persians or 15th century B.C. Anatolian Hittites may be responsible, but since the caves are carved from natural rock, it is difficult to trace their construction to a specific date. The first written evidence of the mysterious cities is not found until the 5th century B.C. in the Greek writer Xenophon’s “Anabasis,” which states that the region’s houses consisted of “underground structures with an aperture like the mouth of a well by which to enter, but they were broad and spacious below.” https://www.history.com/news/vast-underground-city-found-in-turkey-may-be-one-of-the-worlds-largest

See the source imageNevşehir Province 2fc1db45522eeb1bae60f440cb7f74eb.jpgGobekliTepe-886x573.jpeg
 

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DingoLingo

sage.. most the migrations to australia were by the land bridge that connected australia to indonesia etc.. and I am not surprised by india getting to australia, the ancient indians were very skilled boat builders and traders.. but Egypt? please tell me you do not honestly believe that

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crystal sage
26 minutes ago, DingoLingo said:

sage.. most the migrations to australia were by the land bridge that connected australia to indonesia etc.. and I am not surprised by india getting to australia, the ancient indians were very skilled boat builders and traders.. but Egypt? please tell me you do not honestly believe that

Why could there  not some wealthy  interested adventurers  from Egypt?  Egypt was heavily  involved in trade up and down the silk road.

There are aboriginal legends of large boats with heart beats.. from the ancient times.. ( there could also have been some Vikings for all we know.. :) )  Ancient times were all about finding rich or rare goods for trade, or to win favour with the ruling class.. new places of influence. Why not? There were over 600 aboriginal tribes , many with different languages, all with their own customs, stories passed down for hundreds of generations.. all speak of many waves of people that arrived to our land... Also many with the tradition of not speaking the names of their dead and destroying all of their possessions after they die which makes finding relics of the past rather difficult. All we have is their story/ dream time legends passed down over the thousands of years, the rock art, and the DNA.  :) images also of the  latest fleets that invaded Aboriginal lands..  http://www.skwirk.com/p-c_s-14_u-309_t-762_c-2865/aboriginal-heritage-rock-art/nsw/aboriginal-heritage-rock-art/investigating-history/heritage

image2_rock_art.jpg

These are examples of the 'contact art' that has been discovered in Kakadu National Park in the Northern Territory. These paintings are much easier to date than most of the others

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crystal sage

;)B) Had to share this...  https://globalfreedommovement.org/ancient-egyptians-in-australia/ 

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According to an article in The Mail newspaper (Adelaide, October 23, 1937):

The ancestors of the Australian Aboriginal… left Egypt before agriculture was even dreamed of, and before Egyptians learned to write hieroglyphics, says Mr. Slater. The Egyptians learned their system of hieroglyphs from the ancestors of our aborigines (sic), and even the great Pythagoras derived many elements of his mathematics from a system originated by the forbears of the blackfellow.

Although in our opinion the reverse journey was actually travelled, Slater quite rightly believed that “our natives are the survivors of the original race” and determined that the ancestral link well and truly pre-dates the first hypothetical general African exodus of Homo sapien sapiens 60,000 years ago.

Slater’s underlying assumption – that the ancestors of the Original people simply walking out of Egypt and into Australia “approximately 150,000 years ago” by means of “a land bridge” – is now known to be false

 

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crystal sage

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/aborigines-the-first-out-of-africa-the-first-in-asia-and-australia/245392/

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This study, however, is not the first to contradict the popular theory that modern humans came from a single out-of-Africa migration wave into Europe, Asia, and Australia. But it does deal it a huge blow by confirming that Aboriginal Australians took part in the first of two rounds of human relocation.

"Aboriginal Australians descend from the first human explorers," explains lead author and University of Copenhagen professor Eske Willerslev in a news release. "While the ancestors of Europeans and Asians were sitting somewhere in Africa or the Middle East, yet to explore their world further, the ancestors of Aboriginal Australians spread rapidly ... traversing unknown territory in Asia and finally crossing the sea into Australia."

 

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crystal sage

 

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There is evidence that a group of Black African people called the 'Anu' who lived in northern Africa / Egypt and followed the Bear cult (bout 5000BC and back to protohistoric times, see the book, African Presence in Early Asia, by Ivan Van Sertima, Transaction Publications, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA) they made a series of migrations to Asia. That is documented in ancient Egyptian texts. They were related to Aboriginals and were of a 'Negro' type in color, features and origins. Many went to northern Asia and China, others went to Japan.

Well, there are people called 'Ainu' in Japan, who seem to have affinities close to Australian Aborigines and Africans and Melanesians. Anu is also a common African name and both the prefix and suffix. Today many are mixed, but a strong 'Negroid' racial characteristics can still be seen, although there is also a strong Mongoloid set of features as well. They have been said to have 'Caucasian' blood, however some experts believe they are among these Blacks who once lived throughout Eastern Asia, and who later mixed with the Mongoloid to create the Polynesians, some Philipinos and other groups in Asia today

http://www.raceandhistory.com/Science/AboriginesOrigin2.htm

 

 

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The linked stories of the readers are good here...  https://www.theherald.com.au/story/409018/ancient-egyptians-lived-near-woy-woy-fact-or-fantasy/   

Dr Hans-Dieter vonsenff 6 years ago

The fact is, I said nothing about the glyphs in the Press release. As soon as the word Kariong is mentioned, people jump to conclusions.
The Press release showed other, underground chambers, which were not made public. The fact, that Steve Strong and a filmcrew entered the chamber from the East Wall, bottom end, shows, that it is accessible, not like the undergroud chambers, that have been blocked off by
National Parks and Wildlife Service. The roof of the chamber, adjacent to the Glyphs, must have weighted up to 200 tonnes.  No white men in secret, could have moved it, no black men could have done so, because there would be no need for it, only the people, who needed the various chambers, to bury Nefer-Ti-Ru somewhere in it would have had a reason. And the reason is enscribed on the 2 walls, which, being written in Pre and Proto-Egyptian glyphs, proved too hard for the learned Egyptologists, who have a command of 1000 to 1250 glyphs.

It is good to see trained archaeologist and historians sound off about the chambers, but not one of them has bothered to enquire about them, before opening their mouth, or even asked for a copy of them. More the pity.

I also would like to thank Mathew Kelly, for writing a balaced article.

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    Voodoo Dred 2 years ago

    Well.. 2014 it's been confirmed.. how about that... also corresponding proof from the local Aboriginals in the area... and the wisdom keepers from Egypt who confirmed the symbols as authentic because it contains symbols that hadent been deciphered in the whole wolrd till 2012

    I'm pretty sure none of the Gallipoli soldiers had any level of scholarship in egyptology worthy of any merit, and in those days and Tuankhamens tomb hadnt even b found.. so no way someones gonna risk gettin bitten by a snake for a "hoax"

    Funnily enough there seems to be a fair share of evidence of the presence of the people of KMT and the Phoenixians.. mostly in of all places.... Queensland.. hmm

    But early masonic Australian explorers recognised some of these things such as the north western tribes in W.A who knew masonic handshakes and reverrred the Sun and moon, and mummified people in the same way. But the thing is... those that run this country know very well of these things... but of course bringing them up would undermine their illegal occupation of this land.

    https://www.theherald.com.au/story/409018/ancient-egyptians-lived-near-woy-woy-fact-or-fantasy/

     

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