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The Puzzler

Egyptian evidence in Australia

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crystal sage

 

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Protecting Rock Engravings http://sydneyrockart.info/ 

When you go to an engraving site please remember that these sites are culturally significant to the Australian Indigenous people. Engraving sites should not be damaged or defaced and you should try not to walk on any carvings. These engravings could be thousands of years old. The carvings are difficult to date precisely because the Aboriginal people would re-groove them periodically, especially during ceremonies. Engravings that might appear relatively recent could have very ancient beginnings.

Please do not try to make the designs more visible by scratching them with rocks or tools or chalk. Enjoy the engravings as they are and leave them that way. These rock engravings are a unique resource and should not be destroyed.

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2013/08/aboriginal-rock-art-may-depict-first-sea-arrivals

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he expedition also found a piece of timber believed to be deck bracing for an old sailing ship. Though it is yet to be dated, the timber could support the theory of a shipwreck during which the coins washed ashore.

Tim Stone, the group’s geomorphologist, speculates the coins could be from an Arab ship, similar to a wreck discovered off Sumatra in 1998. Tim adds the coins could also be "from a Portuguese ship, as it is possible that they were making contact with Aborigines in the north and may have had Kilwa coins in their possession after destroying the African kingdom in 1505.”

Supporting the shipwreck theory, Mike says one vessel appears to be on rocks with “her back broken, which explains how the artist knew that there was a propeller below the waterline.”

“As it stands there are still many questions yet to be answered,” says Mike. “We have certainly refined the questions and will soon be in a position to report back.”

A full report from this expedition will appear in the Australian Geographic print edition in early 2014

 

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Kenemet
1 hour ago, crystal sage said:

The key words here.. are .. as far a we know...   :)   Of course with increasing use and expanding populations, they would have updated.. renovated.. expanded the cave systems..  as the years progressed and the need for underground shelter increased.  They key thing to explore here though is why Gobleki Tepe was deliberately dug over to protect itself from oncoming ice age ? Or were there other threats.. eg.. ( from other links.. comets and asteroids that seemed to mark or coincide with the demise and growth of civilizations.. ( I believe there was a considerable thread discussing this idea here)  The posts of Gobleki Tepe indicated that there could have been domed rooves.. that maybe artificial protective mounds were created over this ancient 12,000 year old gathering place.. city.. ( remember only a small percentage of this total dig has been explored so far .. so indications of parallel communities.. cities.. dwellings are indicated.. ) Have they dug down further and explored for connecting underground cave systems.. cities there yet ? 

The big underground system was made by Christians.  It wasn't already there.  You can tell the difference between very primitive shelters and the vast city underground.

Gobekli Tepe wasn't put underground to protect itself from an oncoming ice age.  The ice age ended around 12,000 BC.  Gobekli Tepe isn't that old.  And the ground below isn't a nice tufa, so it's not easy to dig.

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Captain Risky
12 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

The big underground system was made by Christians.  It wasn't already there.  You can tell the difference between very primitive shelters and the vast city underground.

Gobekli Tepe wasn't put underground to protect itself from an oncoming ice age.  The ice age ended around 12,000 BC.  Gobekli Tepe isn't that old.  And the ground below isn't a nice tufa, so it's not easy to dig.

so how old is Gobekli Tepe?

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Captain Risky

 the Pope stated that the Bible is for all practical purposes a myth. And, there are a number of dated historical events that predate the Biblical creation. A new discovery predates all of these events. This is a recently discovered archaeological excavation site called Göbekli tepe in Turkey. It has been carbon dated at about 11,500 years old. The site is about 25 acres, with multiple circles, each with a number of 16 foot limestone megalith finely carved beams, still standing. Carvings on the beams include people, animals, birds, snakes, insects and etcetera. To do this quality of work, it would have taken many generations of experience and training. Also, this is supposed to all be in the hunter gatherer period before agriculture was established,

http://www.thegazette.com/subject/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/documentary-with-pope-francis-was-enlightening-20180613

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kmt_sesh
17 hours ago, crystal sage said:

There is evidence that a group of Black African people called the 'Anu' who lived in northern Africa / Egypt and followed the Bear cult (bout 5000BC and back to protohistoric times, see the book, African Presence in Early Asia, by Ivan Van Sertima, Transaction Publications, New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA) they made a series of migrations to Asia. That is documented in ancient Egyptian texts. They were related to Aboriginals and were of a 'Negro' type in color, features and origins. Many went to northern Asia and China, others went to Japan.

Well, there are people called 'Ainu' in Japan, who seem to have affinities close to Australian Aborigines and Africans and Melanesians.

 

 

This is a myth, and I researched it for an article I wrote on my blog (see article here). It stems largely from a very old inscribed plaque that Flinders Petrie translated and published in the late 1930s. The problem is, Petrie was never very good with hieroglyphs, and he mangled this inscription. We have this plaque in our collections at the Oriental Institute; I've studied it myself. The whole myth of the "Anu people" has been used to serve an afrocentric agenda. There is no ancient Egyptian text that talks about a bunch of  Africans migrating to Asia. That is called an appeal to authority, in this case a fallcy employing a very ancient culture (Egypt) to make  a falsehood seem more believable.

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Kenemet
18 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

so how old is Gobekli Tepe?

10th–8th millennium BCE - began around 2,000 years (or a bit more) after the end of the Ice Age.

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Captain Risky
2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

10th–8th millennium BCE - began around 2,000 years (or a bit more) after the end of the Ice Age.

i didn't ask when the ice age ended i asked when Gobelki Tepe was built. but anyway, thanks for the reply.

 "The Pleistocene Epoch is typically defined as the time period that began about 2.6 million years ago and lasted until about 11,700 years ago. The most recent Ice Age occurred then, as glaciers covered huge parts of the planet Earth."

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pleistocene-epoch.html

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Captain Risky

...which pretty much corresponds with the carbon dating at the site. also, id like to mention that the Gobelki Tepe site sits on a hill. this hill has only partially been excavated. the ruins that are cause so much discussion, the ones with the carved totems (for lack of a better word) sit on the side. now what sits unexcavated on the apex of the hill must be far more interesting. 

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Captain Risky

GobekliTepe-886x573.jpeg

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Kenemet
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

i didn't ask when the ice age ended i asked when Gobelki Tepe was built. but anyway, thanks for the reply.

 "The Pleistocene Epoch is typically defined as the time period that began about 2.6 million years ago and lasted until about 11,700 years ago. The most recent Ice Age occurred then, as glaciers covered huge parts of the planet Earth."

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pleistocene-epoch.html

...as I said, Gobekli Tepe was started around 9,000 BC, around 2,000 years after the end of the Ice Age.

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Captain Risky
4 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

...as I said, Gobekli Tepe was started around 9,000 BC, around 2,000 years after the end of the Ice Age.

live science says the ice age lasted up until about 11700 yeas ago. 

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Essan

In fact the last ice age ended in 9346BC.   On the 12th August.   At 3.56am.   It was a glorious occasional and is still commemorated in Britain (the date being known as the Glorious 12th) :) 

:D:P

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stereologist
14 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

This is a myth, and I researched it for an article I wrote on my blog (see article here). It stems largely from a very old inscribed plaque that Flinders Petrie translated and published in the late 1930s. The problem is, Petrie was never very good with hieroglyphs, and he mangled this inscription. We have this plaque in our collections at the Oriental Institute; I've studied it myself. The whole myth of the "Anu people" has been used to serve an afrocentric agenda. There is no ancient Egyptian text that talks about a bunch of  Africans migrating to Asia. That is called an appeal to authority, in this case a fallcy employing a very ancient culture (Egypt) to make  a falsehood seem more believable.

A bear cult in Africa? There are no bears in Africa today. There were bears in the Atlas mountains, nowhere near the land of Egypt. They went extinct due to the Romans.

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Kenemet
9 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

live science says the ice age lasted up until about 11700 yeas ago. 

Yes.  The dating's not exact (they didn't declare one year "ice age" and the next one "Okay... not an ice age.")  11,700 years ago (or 9,700 BC) rounds to 10,000 BC (or 12,000 years ago.)

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Harte
7 hours ago, Essan said:

In fact the last ice age ended in 9346BC.   On the 12th August.   At 3.56am.   It was a glorious occasional and is still commemorated in Britain (the date being known as the Glorious 12th) :) 

:D:P

More commonly called "I Can Feel My Fingers" day.

Harte

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TheEloquentPeasant
On 11/05/2007 at 11:48 AM, The Puzzler said:

I was doing some research on a rumour I had heard and came up with this web site. Has anyone ever heard of Egyptians in Australia before? What do you think of the evidence and apparent facts contained in this article? I myself was pretty amazed at it all. Even if the heiroglyphics seem fake I find it interesting that Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders have similar traditions to Egyptians and mummification processes as well as the Aten symbol. (Don't dismiss it because of the mention of the Gympie Pyramid idol)

http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptaustralia.html

 

post-50813-1178880465_thumb.jpg

It's absolute nonsense. The story has changed so many times in recent years. The hieroglyphs make absolutely no sense, the location makes no sense, and it's unattested in any ancient Egyptian records.

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crystal sage
On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:58 PM, Kenemet said:

The big underground system was made by Christians.  It wasn't already there.  You can tell the difference between very primitive shelters and the vast city underground.

Gobekli Tepe wasn't put underground to protect itself from an oncoming ice age.  The ice age ended around 12,000 BC.  Gobekli Tepe isn't that old.  And the ground below isn't a nice tufa, so it's not easy to dig.

Gobeleki is only a short distance from over 200 underground ancient cities. ( they are close enough to each other to  become  a  popular  linked tourist destinations these days.. http://easternturkeytour.org/tour-ancient-cappa-gobekli.htm )   The soils wouldn't have differed too much. And remember Gobleki Tepe was deliberately buried with soil around 12,000 years ago. How could they achieve this if the soils, turf was too difficult to dig? 

Some suggest that these  dozens of vast underground cities ( some that  said go down to 11 levels)    are only 2000 years old but other archeologist mention anything to over 5000 years old. That these underground dwellings , passages, shelters, hiding places were fairly common in the unruly wild  ancient times.  Most of Europe is riddled with underground passages that have  constantly been remodeled over hundreds and some suspect even thousands of years. Many of the long forgotten mines are creating all these vast world wide sink holes!   Just think of all the vast underground caverns  continuously being discovered all  around the world, some  that are big enough to house whole cities with sky scrapers.   

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Kenemet
7 hours ago, crystal sage said:

Gobeleki is only a short distance from over 200 underground ancient cities. ( they are close enough to each other to  become  a  popular  linked tourist destinations these days.. http://easternturkeytour.org/tour-ancient-cappa-gobekli.htm )   The soils wouldn't have differed too much.

The soils differ considerably over that distance.  The Cappadocian caves are dug into volcanic ash... very thick layers of volcanic ash.  You couldn't dig a cave in the Gobekli Tepe soils without it collapsing on you (unless you shored it up.)

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And remember Gobleki Tepe was deliberately buried with soil around 12,000 years ago. How could they achieve this if the soils, turf was too difficult to dig? 

Different soils.

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Some suggest that these  dozens of vast underground cities ( some that  said go down to 11 levels)    are only 2000 years old but other archeologist mention anything to over 5000 years old.

What is your source for the "11 levels", etc?

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That these underground dwellings , passages, shelters, hiding places were fairly common in the unruly wild  ancient times.  Most of Europe is riddled with underground passages that have  constantly been remodeled over hundreds and some suspect even thousands of years. Many of the long forgotten mines are creating all these vast world wide sink holes!   Just think of all the vast underground caverns  continuously being discovered all  around the world, some  that are big enough to house whole cities with sky scrapers.   

There's quite a difference between natural caves and carved caverns.  Although natural caves might seem like a wonderful place to live, they're not.  In order to get to a suitable room, you might have to walk or crawl or even swim for a quarter mile or more.  You couldn't conveniently bring a lot of food to people that are a quarter mile away in the dark, over rough passages with a lot of litter of fallen stones from the roof.

People lived in "rock shelters", which were big overhangs... not caves.  This kept them out of the weather, was NOT wet, and provided a good back wall that reflected heat.  You could see over the landscape and didn't run into the problem of dying by being trapped in the dark in a cave.

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crystal sage
On 8/4/2018 at 3:16 AM, Kenemet said:

The soils differ considerably over that distance.  The Cappadocian caves are dug into volcanic ash... very thick layers of volcanic ash.  You couldn't dig a cave in the Gobekli Tepe soils without it collapsing on you (unless you shored it up.)

Different soils.

What is your source for the "11 levels", etc?

There's quite a difference between natural caves and carved caverns.  Although natural caves might seem like a wonderful place to live, they're not.  In order to get to a suitable room, you might have to walk or crawl or even swim for a quarter mile or more.  You couldn't conveniently bring a lot of food to people that are a quarter mile away in the dark, over rough passages with a lot of litter of fallen stones from the roof.

People lived in "rock shelters", which were big overhangs... not caves.  This kept them out of the weather, was NOT wet, and provided a good back wall that reflected heat.  You could see over the landscape and didn't run into the problem of dying by being trapped in the dark in a cave.

different soils...  from where would they have gathered enough soils to completely bury a whole city ?    

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ndeed, Gobekli Tepe sits at the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent—an arc of mild climate and arable land from the Persian Gulf to present-day Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and Egypt—and would have attracted hunter-gatherers from Africa and the Levant. And partly because Schmidt has found no evidence that people permanently resided on the summit of Gobekli Tepe itself, he believes this was a place of worship on an unprecedented scale—humanity’s first “cathedral on a hill.”

With the sun higher in the sky, Schmidt ties a white scarf around his balding head, turban-style, and deftly picks his way down the hill among the relics. In rapid-fire German he explains that he has mapped the entire summit using ground-penetrating radar and geomagnetic surveys, charting where at least 16 other megalith rings remain buried across 22 acres. The one-acre excavation covers less than 5 percent of the site. He says archaeologists could dig here for another 50 years and barely scratch the surface.

Gobekli Tepe was first examined—and dismissed—by University of Chicago and Istanbul University anthropologists in the 1960

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Hence the eventual emergence of settled communities in the area around 10,000 years ago. “This shows sociocultural changes come first, agriculture comes later,” says Stanford University archaeologist Ian Hodder, who excavated Catalhoyuk, a prehistoric settlement 300 miles from Gobekli Tepe. “You can make a good case this area is the real origin of complex Neolithic societies
Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/#R3KurUfBp5MGUjQe.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter


Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/#R3KurUfBp5MGUjQe.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/catalhoyuk

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It is estimated that the ancient city reached its height around 7000 BCE with anywhere from 5-7,000 residents at a time, and possibly as many 10,000 at times. Strangely the structures seem to be exclusively domestic in purpose, with a noticeable lack of commercial or craft-centered spaces. The settlement also seems to lack any sort of trash or debris that is usually found at such archeological locations. It is possible that since each of the chambers was essentially a home (or whatever that term connoted in 7,000 BCE), they were kept cleaner than they might have been in a more cosmopolitan version of civilization with more public spaces

 

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crystal sage
Posted (edited)

https://www.news.com.au/news/ancient-ruined-cities-that-remain-a-mystery/news-story/19a256f4f9a9f022865a0a6410ffcb5d

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Derinkuyu, Turkey

The largest and deepest of 200 underground cities in the Cappadocia region, this eerie location was home to approximately 20,000 people (plus livestock, a church, school and kitchen). The inhabitants dug tunnels and rooms beneath their homes in the soft volcanic rock.

The city reportedly grew to 85 metres and 11 levels deep. It is believed to date back to the early Byzantine Empire, as early as the 7th-8th centuries.

 

Derinkuyu. Picture: Supplied

 

 

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2014/02/9000-year-old-fabric-found-at-catalhoyuk.html#oO5t2WKo3fSOvMh6.97

 

Excavations works that have been continuing in the earliest settlement of Çatalhöyük in the central Anatolian province of Konya have revealed a 9,000-year-old piece of linen fabric. The world’s first hemp-weaved fabric has been found in the ground of a burned house.
Read more at  

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2014/02/9000-year-old-fabric-found-at-catalhoyuk.html#5kCRX0lHq5VMG2Mt.99

Edited by crystal sage
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Kenemet
6 hours ago, crystal sage said:

different soils...  from where would they have gathered enough soils to completely bury a whole city ?    

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/catalhoyuk

It's not that hard to get that much dirt.  The area isn't miles in diameter; it's much smaller than that.  And they were burying one level at a time.  Finally... the whole area is not rock outcrop but has a lot of poor, thin soil all around.

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Kenemet
6 hours ago, crystal sage said:

https://www.news.com.au/news/ancient-ruined-cities-that-remain-a-mystery/news-story/19a256f4f9a9f022865a0a6410ffcb5d

Derinkuyu. Picture: Supplied

 

 

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2014/02/9000-year-old-fabric-found-at-catalhoyuk.html#oO5t2WKo3fSOvMh6.97

 

Excavations works that have been continuing in the earliest settlement of Çatalhöyük in the central Anatolian province of Konya have revealed a 9,000-year-old piece of linen fabric. The world’s first hemp-weaved fabric has been found in the ground of a burned house.
Read more at  

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2014/02/9000-year-old-fabric-found-at-catalhoyuk.html#5kCRX0lHq5VMG2Mt.99

Yes, as the article says, it was made during Byzantine times  (around 300 AD and lasted several hundred years) and was in the area of the world that developed the first bronze tools and some of the earliest iron tools.  The site is an easy-to-carve volcanic material.  The 9,000 year old part (7,000 BC) is from a house... not an underground cave.  They lived in houses on the site for a very long time.

This is very different than Gobekli Tepe.  

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