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The Puzzler

Egyptian evidence in Australia

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The Puzzler

Great links once again Crystal Sage, I think I'll name you 'Queen of the Links'! You always provide really interesting websites that provide so much more information to follow up.

I've just read over a few and am very interested in getting back to the Childress one in book form. Thanks everyone also who is giving an opinion here, I think the history of Australia is very interesting pre European settlement. One of the links went on the say there is proof that the Aboriginals came from the same stock as European (who at that time were Cro-Magnons) in the "Out of Africa" theory. Aboriginal history is interesting because it's so unknown, there is no written records, just stories, legends and paintings that tell the stories...

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The_Spartan
Well, for a start, "crystal links" dot com is hardly going to be an objective, scientific website are they? Those photos could be from anywhere. I agree with DC - if it was real we would have heard about it by now.

I dont beleive a single thing thats said in the Crystal Links website.Its all about Childress and Childress like the others is just a con man ripping you off for the money for the books. There is another website that has a collection news about ancient petroglyphs found across the world. You can check it out at

Ancient petroglyphs across the world

and

First Tounge

Edited by coredrill
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kmt_sesh

I just stumbled across this thread and read the article from crystalinks, and it is so full of inaccuracies as to be really quite amusing. Let's take a closer look at some of the things written in the article:

This archaic style is very little known and untranslatable by most Egyptologists who are all trained to read Middle Egyptian upward.

It is true that Middle Egyptian is the standard taught in the universities. It's the form of the hieroglyphic language I myself have studied. I am not an expert in this field but have studied hieroglyphs for about a decade, but even a green novice would be able to identify this "inscription" as an obvious fake. Anyway, anyone who studies Middle Egyptian would have little to no difficulty translating older inscriptions. In fact, inscriptions from the Old Kingdom are often easier to work with.

Hieroglyphs become much more difficult to work with in the Ptolemaic Period, when the Greeks ruled, near the end of the dynastic history. The article doesn't make it clear what "archaic style" means, however. The very oldest evidence of hieroglyphs date to late predynastic times and consist of labels and dockets in some of the royal tombs of this period, but one cannot even classify these as inscriptions.

Because the old style contains early forms of glyphs that correlate with archaic Phoenician and Sumerian sources one can see how the university researchers who saw them could so easily have thought them to be bizarre and ill-conceived forgeries.

This is also boldly ridiculous. Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumerian cuneiform are markedly different, even in their most ancient forms. The two languages, written and spoken, are completely different and have no connections. No linguist worth his or her salt would ever have cause to confuse the two in any way. And as for the Phoenicians, they had no written language in the era dating to the earliest periods of Egypt. In fact, they didn't yet exist. It's unlikely any Canaanite peoples had a written language yet. In fact, with the evidence we have of Proto-Sinaitic (a.k.a. Proto-Canaanite), it's more than likely the first written language of the Phoenicians and their Levant neighbors was largely adapted and developed from Egyptian hieroglyphs.

A group of three cartouches (framed clusters of glyphs) record the name of "RA-JEDEF" as reigning King of the Upper and Lower Nile, and son of 'Khufu' who, in turn, is son of the King 'Sneferu'.

Djedefre (sometimes written as Rejedef) and his father, Khufu, were of course kings of Dynasty 4. The article mentions two paragraphs earlier that the inscription "stemmed from the Third Dynasty." Maybe that's just an innocent mistake and it's not a big deal, really. What's important here is the timing of these two monarchs, in reference to the earlier "archaic style" description of the hieroglyphs. Yet the hieroglyphic language had been fully developed and was in place well before this time, so again that poo-poos the argument that the inscription is just too old to read.

Now for the inscription itself. My, for how enigmatic and difficult the inscription is, this "Egyptologist Ray Johnson" certainly managed to develop a full and elaborate translation. A lot of it is nonsense.

There's a description of King Khufu as "mighty one of Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Adzes." No Egyptian king was ever called "Lord of the Two Adzes." I know of not one single precedent for it. I'm assuming this is supposed to be a line drawing of the inscription, or at least some of it. It says little to nothing. It's not even composed as a literate Egyptian would've been trained to write with hieroglyphs--and some of the symbols on there are not even hieroglyphs. This graphic is then followed by a series of close-up photos of the hieroglyphs, and nearly every one of them is described completely incorrectly.

What we have here is someone who picked up a book on hieroglyphs, spent a week or two studying it, and etched out a very bad fake. This has never been taken seriously by legitimate scholars, so there's no reason any one of us should take it seriously. ;)

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Harte
I just stumbled across this thread and read the article from crystalinks, and it is so full of inaccuracies as to be really quite amusing.

Kmt Sesh,

You had me at "...it is so full of inaccuracies ..."

What we have here is someone who picked up a book on hieroglyphs, spent a week or two studying it, and etched out a very bad fake. This has never been taken seriously by legitimate scholars, so there's no reason any one of us should take it seriously. ;)

Did you read the entire thread? If so, then you must see that it is useless to fight these naive posters that have this perverted desire to remain comfortably ignorant of the history of the world.

I refuted everything in this claim. Did you see the part about "fossils of Australian marsupials found in a Pharoah's tomb?" That very sentence itself refutes the entire hypothesis without any intervention whatsoever on your (or my) part!

Yet slow-witted idiots that wish to remain living in some dream world insist on maintaining their belief in a completely fabricated and ridiculous hoax.

Maybe the Egyptians did reach Australia. But there exists absolutely no evidence of this at all. The stories told in this thread are not only not evidence, they are false.

Harte

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kmt_sesh

Hello, Harte :)

Did you read the entire thread? If so, then you must see that it is useless to fight these naive posters that have this perverted desire to remain comfortably ignorant of the history of the world.

I admit I didn't read the entire thread. It's a bad habit of mine. And it is an awfully long thread. I know reasonable folks such as you and I are fighting an uphill battle here, but we must carry on nevertheless. I'd never seen that particular crystalinks article so I thought I might as well read it, and after I managed to stop laughing I felt compelled to speak up.

I refuted everything in this claim. Did you see the part about "fossils of Australian marsupials found in a Pharoah's tomb?" That very sentence itself refutes the entire hypothesis without any intervention whatsoever on your (or my) part!

I didn't see your refutation, otherwise I might have decided enough logic had already been attempted and I would've left it at that. Still, "fossils of Australian marsupials"? :lol: No, I definitely missed that. I'm going to have to do some backtracking now because I'm in the mood for a laugh.

Maybe the Egyptians did reach Australia. But there exists absolutely no evidence of this at all. The stories told in this thread are not only not evidence, they are false.

I for one firmly believe the Egyptians never reached Australia, accidentally or otherwise. The Egyptians were not a seafaring culture and never even liked sailing the open ocean. They were coastal sailors who plied the edges of the eastern Mediterranean and the western shores of the Red Sea (possibly as far south as the Gulf of Aden). In the Late Period a king named Nectanebo II (360-343 BCE), the last native Egyptian pharaoh, did invest a considerabe fortune in the development of a naval force, but this was over 2,100 years after the "Australian connection" was supposed to have taken place.

The idea that the some Egyptian craft built for coastal sailing somehow made it out into the Arabian Sea and then floundered all the way to Australia is not even remotely realistic. You're right, there simply is no acceptable evidence that such a thing ever occurred. It's an uphill battle for us, isn't it, Harte? And yet we press on. :rolleyes:

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sickpuppy
But there exists absolutely no evidence of this at all.

would you consider an egyptian scarab found in Australia as "evidence" ?

hi guys.. I'm in Australia.. near *some* areas mentioned in post also, i also do some networking with cryptozoologists..

In my experience i have found most of them (crypto's) hungry for the dollar.. so it makes you question their sincerity to the claims they make, but i assure you there is indeed some "strange" stuff to be found here in Australia.. (as for the egyptian stuff > scarabs etc, even some obelisks with carvings) i cannot date it or even be sure if it's pre-settlement.. but it's here.. check out the work of "Rex Gilroy" (he's got a whole hypothesis about Lemuria / Uru / prehistoric civ etc) he seems to be hungry for this field, but as i say, he publishes books etc so may just be hungry for the dollar :)

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kmt_sesh

Okay, Harte, I guess I found it. It was way back at the beginning. Here's a quote from that post:

What about the parts about the mummification and the Aten symbol as well as the Australian marsupial fossils found in tombs in Egypt?

Frist of all, this business with the Aten symbol is misleading. There is nothing remarkable or unique about the iconic form of the Egyptian Aten hieroglyph. Never mind that the earliest evidence for the hieroglyphic word aten in reference to the solar disk or related deity does not even occur till the Middle Kingdom--long after the time when this errant ship was supposed to have bonked into the shores of Austrailia. The image itself is unremarkable and is similar to pictographic depictions of the sun in cultures all over the world. So we can forget about the Aten as something significant as evidence.

Then there's mummification. No culture in the world mummified their dead in the way the Egyptians did. Then again, for the Egyptians it was a religious necessity. The crystalink article says:

In 1931 Australian Anthropologist, Sir Grafton Elliot-Smith examined mummified remains in a New Zealand cave. He identified the skull as being that of an ancient Egyptian at least 2000 years old.

Where is this body now? Has it been examined by experts in Egyptian mummification? And what exactly does the article mean by "mummified remains"? A body buried in the desert or a cave or a similar arid environment stands a good chance of being naturally desiccated. Desiccation is a legitimate form of mummification and, in the deserts of prehistoric Egypt, is likely to have given the Egyptians the idea to start mummifying their dead artifically, but it's quite silly to claim a "mummified" body found in a cave in New Zealand was that of a person provided an Egyptian style of burial.

Further, no scientist who wants to be taken seriously would examine a body in some other part of the world and say, "Well, this man was an Egyptian." At most a scientist could say the remains resemble those of a Semite or Afro-Semite. The article says a gold scarab was found "in the district on another occasion." Where is this scarab? Never mind that scarabs were rarely made of gold--steatite or feldspar were most common, as were blue-green-glazed composition. The fact that the author wants to make it gold reveals that he's playing into the unrealistic stereotype that pretty much every piece of Egyptian jewelry was golden.

The article then says: "His [Elliot-Smith's] papers seen to have mysteriously disapeared from The Australian Acadamy of Science Library in Canberra." LOL How convenient! All the research and findings "mysteriously" disappeared! You know then and there not to take it seriously.

I don't know quite what to say about the "Australian marsupial fossils" supposedly found near the Siwa Oasis. I'm no expert in paleontology but in twenty years of studying Egypt and its archaeology I've never heard of this in a single respected piece of literature. Much of Egypt lies on vast layers of limestone bedrock and I believe limestone can be rich with fossils (I'm also no geologist), but claiming some Egyptian specimen to be an Australian marsupial seems quite a serious stretch of the imagination. I don't think we need to give this particular argument any further attention. It doesn't deserve any.

While reading through more of the article I also came across this:

There's also the unexplained set of golded boomerangs discovered by Prof. Carter in the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1922.

Please, these are not "boomerangs." They're throw sticks, and quite a few of them were found in Tut's tomb. I don't know of any golden throw sticks found in KV62 (Tut's tomb)--again, the author is playing to the stereotpye--but there were some beautiful ebony examples discovered in there. Others were beautifully painted. I might be acting too picky about terminology here because Carter himself does refer to them as "boomerangs" in his notes. What I'm saying is that this is no reason to try to make some sort of Australian connection. Tomb scenes showing Egyptians with throw sticks were quite common, such as this famous depiction in a New Kingdom tomb, but throw sticks were common to cultures all over the ancient world.

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Harte
Then there's mummification. No culture in the world mummified their dead in the way the Egyptians did. Then again, for the Egyptians it was a religious necessity.

There was a tribe in the area of NZ that did practice a form of mummification. The pseudohistorian was trying to claim that this tribe, who mummified their dead by smoking them like a ham, was somehow descended from ancient Egyptian immigrants to the area.

I don't know quite what to say about the "Australian marsupial fossils" supposedly found near the Siwa Oasis. I'm no expert in paleontology but in twenty years of studying Egypt and its archaeology I've never heard of this in a single respected piece of literature. Much of Egypt lies on vast layers of limestone bedrock and I believe limestone can be rich with fossils (I'm also no geologist), but claiming some Egyptian specimen to be an Australian marsupial seems quite a serious stretch of the imagination. I don't think we need to give this particular argument any further attention. It doesn't deserve any.

This crazy claim was found (by me) to be related to a fossil dig in Africa where several ancient marsupial fossils were found. These, of course, were native to Africa and were only related to any Australian marsupials in the same way that a kangaroo is related to the opossums in my backyard here in Tennessee.

As far as I could determine, no such fossils were ever found in any tomb. But, even if they were, the fact that they were fossils is what I was referring to when I said the sentence refutes itself without your (or my) intervention. Because, if a Pharoah was buried with a fossil, that would on it's face indicate that the animal in question was looong (to put it mildly) dead. It certainly would not indicate anything about whether the fossil was retrieved from Australia through some unknown voyage there. I assumed the pseudohistorian was betting on the fact that many people associate "marsupials" with Australia (for good reason) and remain somewhat unaware that marsupials (or their fossils) can be found all over the globe

Happy reading. You'll find some real doozies in this thread. It's actually embarrassing.

Harte

Edited by Harte

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kmt_sesh
There was a tribe in the area of NZ that did practice a form of mummification. The pseudohistorian was trying to claim that this tribe, who mummified their dead by smoking them like a ham, was somehow descended from ancient Egyptian immigrants to the area.

Yeah, I know there were other cultures in the world that performed some kind of mummification, but it's overly simplistic for this guy to claim a connection just because a form of mummification was involved. I know of no culture in the world that practiced the process of mummification as the Egyptians did, and a cursory examination of one of the New Zealand examples would make it plainly obvious that there is no connection.

I assumed the pseudohistorian was betting on the fact that many people associate "marsupials" with Australia (for good reason) and remain somewhat unaware that marsupials (or their fossils) can be found all over the globe

Who knows what's up with this guy, although the appellation "pseudohistorian" couldn't be more accurate. :lol: He's either trying to apply misdirection and is hoping the reader is not well educated or well informed, or he himself doesn't know any better. In either case it's an absurd claim.

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Harte

He may also be motivated by greed. You'll find a link in this thread to an application for some kind of "special status" (I forget what it was) for some of the land that supposedly holds evidence of ancient Egyptian (or maybe it was Phoenician) visitation or something. I swear it's either in the OP or in one of the early posts.

Could be this status would prove lucrative for someone that owns the land, or perhaps owns some nearby land.

Tourist trap/souvenir stand here we come!

Harte

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The_Spartan

aussies..u can be at ease...there are no ancient egyptians...coming claim that since they found egypt..australia is theirs... ;)

huh?

what about modern egyptians? :rolleyes:

Edited by coredrill

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AmazingAtheist
Hell, the Chinese reached Australia all those years ago aswell...there's no reason Egypt couldn't have...it's roughly the same distance.

I highly doubt Egyptians ever made it to Australia ..

There would be some records of it :l

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Jewels1958
Okay, then -- tell us a system whereby we know when he lies and when he tells the truth. That isn't based on what you /want/ to believe is true.

If you can't do that, his work in toto is no better than fiction; less so, since fiction doesn't deliberately try to fool people.

I take it you don't actually have higher degrees to accurately comment on this? Yes, there is the part of the degree where you prove your knowledge of the verified facts of the field but part of every degree is a) proving your ability to think beyond the rank and file and B) finding out something new in the field that no-one else has. This is the nature of the thesis, not proving your conformity. I need hardly remind you that you have a hard enough time accurately reporting what you find without deliberately manipulating your sources!

No -- but without proper training in their field, they're not going to produce anything worth sampling, either!

--Jaylemurph

Excuse me? My daughter is an incredible natural (no training) artist and I am a damn good cook (quite a few people have told me so) without any training (I cook much better than my mother ever could, so "she" didn't train me either). I do indeed "produce stuff worth sampling". I have known many a "college educated idiot" (as my ex-husband called them :P), that have no common sense and actually do not seem very intelligent considering they have a degree. And in the same light I have known a lot of incredibly intelligent people without a "formal" education. And for that matter, I consider myself a very intelligent person (and have a 165 IQ to boot), but I have had no college education or degree. A degree is just a piece of paper that proves you can memorize stuff imho, it is not a measure of intelligence.

Edited by Jewels1958

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White_Lama

I have one word: Goa'uld.

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The Puzzler
I have one word: Goa'uld.

and??? Stargate is in Australia? Someone was posing as Gods? Please explain?....

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The Skeptic Eric Raven
and??? Stargate is in Australia? Someone was posing as Gods? Please explain?....

I believe he was making a joke. :D

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The Puzzler
I believe he was making a joke. :D

Right.......funny joke. I'm cracking up at that one..........

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crystal sage

linked-image

http://www.1421.tv/gallery.asp?Section=Sto...and carvings#

Berowa Waters Sydney sandstone carving

This photo of a curious carved rock was sent in by Jude Fernandez. The rock can be found near the river''s edge at Berowa Waters, NSW, Australia, and is easily accessable by water or land (at the end of the Northern car park of the Berowa Waters Ferry) . The area is about 25 kilometers from the sea.

The site of the carving is on the Great North Walk, an ancient walking track of the Aboriginal people that was revealed to the early European settlers. Can anybody shed any light on the carving? For a higher resolution photograph please email ianhudson@1421.tv

http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=33

http://www.awarenessquest.com/other.htm

http://www.awarenessquest.com/osborn.htm

Ezekiel 27 and first Kings 10 in the old Testament provide descriptions of the lifestyle, culture and cargoes with 3 year voyages utilising fleets Ivory from Africa, peacocks from India, marmosets from the Amazon etc. A mural depicting Queen Hatshepsut cargoes exists in the giant El Amarna Temple on the Nile from the same era. Australia was called Ophir or Big Java or the Aurea Chersenosis in old maps and was well documented Black opal from Lightening Ridge and sapphires were found in Nile jewelry and Ophir gold highly valued in ancient times.

Egyptian, Hebrew, Phoenician and Ogham scripts are documented from sites all over Australia along with constructions, harbors and roads. At present the refusal to rewrite history has political overtones.

The Freshwater Point complex is uniquely Phoenician, as are adjacent sites on the Queensland Coast The two artificial harbors meticulously engineered are quite large and represent the labour of many over centuries. The East Harbour is keyed into a reef constructed of placed andesite boulders set in slag furnace cement with a back fill road of mined ore stone. The North Harbour jetty is of collapsed pylons of similar 2oulders set in gold slag cement, the pylons at intervals presumably once having a Limber top. A quarried store chip road meets this in a triangle fashion. Adjacent to this ruined jetty is slag heaps from furnaces of gold, mercury and copper ore. Furnaces were small, of dolomite bricks of half cubit sized, reinforced. Evidence of refining exists on the Sarina Inlet area with a sluice race and air artificial reservoir of water lined with clay, some 2 acres overall. A similar reservoir is found on the east

Edited by crystal sage

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Harte

CS,

You already quoted this site and the insane Mr. Osborne in this thread. Have you finally run out of crapola?

Harte

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crystal sage

:D

Not yet!!!!

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DieChecker
linked-image

I highly doubt such a beutifully carved rock could survive at the waters edge of a river and be more then a couple dozen years old. Debris and water erosion would soon scower the surface down.

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1.618

If a people could build the pyramids, i don't see how sailing a few thousand miles across the ocean would present much of an obstacle.

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AmazingAtheist
If a people could build the pyramids, i don't see how sailing a few thousand miles across the ocean would present much of an obstacle.

Theres no evidence to support it ..

Plus there ships wouldn't have made it ..

The Egyptians weren't really concerned about traveling around the world anyway ..

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crystal sage
Theres no evidence to support it ..

Plus there ships wouldn't have made it ..

The Egyptians weren't really concerned about traveling around the world anyway ..

Why not???

There were very much into sorcery...herbs... potions... surely they would have sent envoys out to search new ingredients... new knowledge... would have sought jewels precious metals.......

http://arts.anu.edu.au/arcworld/resources/cult/aocult.htm

Some say that Australia was known as Ophir ... many thousands of years ago... famed for it's gold and precious jewels....

http://www.awarenessquest.com/osborn.htm

Australia was called Ophir or Big Java or the Aurea Chersenosis in old maps and was well documented Black opal from Lightening Ridge and sapphires were found in Nile jewelry and Ophir gold highly valued in ancient times.

Egyptian, Hebrew, Phoenician and Ogham scripts are documented from sites all over Australia along with constructions, harbors and roads. At present the refusal to rewrite history has political overtones.

The Freshwater Point complex is uniquely Phoenician, as are adjacent sites on the Queensland Coast The two artificial harbors meticulously engineered are quite large and represent the labour of many over centuries. The East Harbour is keyed into a reef constructed of placed andesite boulders set in slag furnace cement with a back fill road of mined ore stone. The North Harbour jetty is of collapsed pylons of similar 2oulders set in gold slag cement, the pylons at intervals presumably once having a Limber top. A quarried store chip road meets this in a triangle fashion. Adjacent to this ruined jetty is slag heaps from furnaces of gold, mercury and copper ore. Furnaces were small, of dolomite bricks of half cubit sized, reinforced. Evidence of refining exists on the Sarina Inlet area with a sluice race and air artificial reservoir of water lined with clay, some 2 acres overall. A similar reservoir is found on the east

Harbour complex along with a sluice and tilled fields adjacent As the culture was always of mud brick housing only retaining walls of stone are to be found to date.

http://www.british-israel.ca/Phoenician.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=35fzwB10A...z47W3mM#PPP1,M1

The ancient cities. found in Micronesia... could have been ports of call for the ancients....

http://phoenicia.org/australia.html

These incredibly rich hydrothermal crusts were the attraction for colonists and sea traders beginning around 2200 BC out of the Mediterranean. The zenith of coastal mining appeared to relate to the Solomon era of 950 BC when Phoenician vessels came to the fabled land of Ophir out of the Red Sea port at Ezion-Geber on three-year voyages across oceans returning exotics to the exploding Mediterranean cultures.

Harbours

The Freshwater Point site is one of many around Australia's coastlines and it is almost an exact copy of Tyre of Phoenician legend. The east harbour jetty is a typical Phoenician loading platform of granite stone set in furnace-slag cement, some 400 metres in length by 30 metres width by 5 metres high, running back to a freshwater spring and reservoir -- one of two on the isthmus relative to adjacent to open cut mines accessing gold, copper, metacinnabar, epidote, arfedsonite, etc with associated slag heaps and artifacts with the usual Bel altars on the skyline.

In conjunction with this east harbour Sarina inlet contains walls, a cemetery, a Tanit shrine, a boatyard with launching ramp, a giant ten-acre fish traps and the usual petroglyphs.

Sarina township is built on one of the many raised tel platforms and shows clear evidence of surface and underground mining of chromite ore, copper, etc with furnace slag heaps and mining chips, ancient roads, artifacts now overbuilt by modern real estate and canefields.

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?n...hist&tid=10

The Egyptians also ventured out to the lands of the traders; we hear of them visiting Lebanon as early as the III Dynasty, and Crete in the IX.

In the tenth century B.C. Phoenician merchantmen, known as "ships of Tarshish" in the Old Testament, started sailing in the Red Sea. Their home port was Ezion-Gebir, modern Aqaba, and they were hired by King Solomon to handle his Indian Ocean commerce. Usually they went to a mysterious place the Bible calls "Ophir," and they brought back such luxury items as gold, ivory, apes and peacocks. Modern scholars cannot agree on where Ophir was; conservatives label it as Arabia, most locate it in India or East Africa, and a few bold spirits put it as far away as Australia!

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