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The Puzzler

Egyptian evidence in Australia

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kmt_sesh
1 hour ago, Harte said:

IIRC, it was around 800 BC when the Egyptians met the Greeks - officially met with documented evidence, anyway.

There wasn't an actual "Greece" then or before that, so they wouldn't have thought of it that way.

Harte

That's about when the Greeks first started to send out colonies across the Mediterranean, including North Africa (in what's now Libya). But you can extend that back through Mycenaean times, since they were Greeks, too. That puts you in the 15th century BCE.

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kmt_sesh

I didn't mean to imply that the mummy wrapped in Etruscan writing is from the 7th century BCE. It's not. It's a mummy from the 3rd century BCE (as I recall). This was when the Greeks were ruling Egypt. The mummy is now in Croatia.

https://www.absolute-croatia.com/travel-magazine/arts-culture/museums-galleries/item/the-zagreb-mummy

I blame Harte for my lack of clarity. I have to blame someone, right?

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Harte
3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

That's about when the Greeks first started to send out colonies across the Mediterranean, including North Africa (in what's now Libya). But you can extend that back through Mycenaean times, since they were Greeks, too. That puts you in the 15th century BCE.

Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean?

To me that's the relevant point of view.

Harte

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kmt_sesh
1 hour ago, Harte said:

Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean?

To me that's the relevant point of view.

Harte

The Egyptian word for Mycenaean translates as "gyro-eatin' barbarian." Actually I don't know how the Egyptians considered them, but certainly not as Egyptian. They would've been seen as "something else" and foreign, which in the Egyptian view was a negative.

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Harte

Can't really blame them for that.

Harte

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Captain Risky
9 hours ago, Harte said:

Didn't the Egyptians consider them other than Mycenaean?

To me that's the relevant point of view.

Harte

sorry dude but you're making this up as you go along... the Egyptians had trade and war with their neighbours to the north. whether they were called Greeks, sea peoples or Mycenaeans they came under the same umbrella. 

sea_battle2.jpg

 

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Harte

Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them.

Minoans too.

And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples.

"Neighbors to the North"  includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you?

Harte

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Lord Harry
18 minutes ago, Harte said:

Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them.

Minoans too.

And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples.

"Neighbors to the North"  includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you?

Harte

You make a good point, however the prevailing winds of popular and unlearned opinion should not be allowed to influence scholarly classification. The Mycenaeans were ethnically Greek, as were the Dorian invaders which brought about that civilization's downfall.

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Harte

At the time, there were Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians, etc.

Ethnically Greek, yes. But vastly different regarding trade, aggression, and other things.

And a whole bunch of the Sea Peoples confederation wasn't remotely Greek.

Harte

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Captain Risky
18 hours ago, Harte said:

Sorry, but our present culture doesn't regard the Mycenaeans as Greeks. That's why we have a different word for them.

Minoans too.

And you apparently don't know much about the Sea Peoples.

"Neighbors to the North"  includes a lot of territory. All Greek to you?

Harte

lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war.

since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek...

Edited by Captain Risky

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Captain Risky
18 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

You make a good point, however the prevailing winds of popular and unlearned opinion should not be allowed to influence scholarly classification. The Mycenaeans were ethnically Greek, as were the Dorian invaders which brought about that civilization's downfall.

progressive migrations of Greek tribes. 

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Captain Risky
11 hours ago, Harte said:

At the time, there were Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians, etc.

Ethnically Greek, yes. But vastly different regarding trade, aggression, and other things.

And a whole bunch of the Sea Peoples confederation wasn't remotely Greek.

Harte

okay lets look at this from another angle... the Harris papyrus clearly states that Rameses the 3rd fought the same sea peoples on their islands and enslaved them. so assuming that the ancient Egyptians of the time were not great sea farers it would have been a relative short distance from Egypt. the only area within striking distance of the coastal Egyptian maritime navy would have been the Aegean, which was Minoan, Mycenaeans and other various Greek tribes. 

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Harte

There were a bunch of Philistines in the Sea People's makeup.

The Sea People's battles fought by Ramses III were all invasions of Egypt.

Many were enslaved in those invasions.

The Pharaoh replied to the last invasion of his reign with raids of his own, but nobody knows what lands he raided. The Sea Peoples held many islands as well as other territory.

Harte

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Harte
3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war.

since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek...

What Trojan war are you talking about?

The myth that was made into a Greek story?

Harte

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jmccr8
56 minutes ago, Harte said:

What Trojan war are you talking about?

The myth that was made into a Greek story?

Harte

Hi Harte

There was a recent price war between Trojans and Ramses at the drug store last week maybe that is what he is referring to.

jmccr8

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Harte

I was thinking more along the lines of NCAA football, specifically the Pac10

Harte

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kmt_sesh
8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war.

since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek...

No one is certain to this day of the precise composition of the Sea Peoples. A Greek contingent was almost certainly among them, following the collapse of Mycenaean cultural centers. But in total the Sea Peoples may have contained ethnicities all the way from Etruria to Asia Minor.

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Captain Risky
8 hours ago, Harte said:

What Trojan war are you talking about?

The myth that was made into a Greek story?

Harte

regardless if it was myth or not the fact is that Homer clearly states that the Myceanean king and his army were Greeks. 

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Captain Risky
3 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

No one is certain to this day of the precise composition of the Sea Peoples. A Greek contingent was almost certainly among them, following the collapse of Mycenaean cultural centers. But in total the Sea Peoples may have contained ethnicities all the way from Etruria to Asia Minor.

most certainly. But the majority would have been around the Aegean basin. 

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jaylemurph
12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

lol. mate do your obstinate ass a favour and read Homer. the very same Mycenaeans you declare to NOT be Greeks are the very same Greeks that fought the Trojan war.

since you are the expert do tell us who the sea peoples were since they were not Greek...

...if you're somehow using Homer as an historical source, you're not really using modern /or/ period sources correctly, and so not in a position to be dictating ethnicities of Greek subcultures.

 

7 hours ago, Harte said:

I was thinking more along the lines of NCAA football, specifically the Pac10

Harte

Pac-12. I know. I see signs and banners all the damn time.

--Jaylemurph

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kmt_sesh

Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm

I think it was last year that genetic research was published that shows an affinity between Minoans and Mycenaeans, to a degree most had not realized. It seems the two groups were genetic cousins. Here's an abstract about it (I'm tempted to buy the article):

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

Editing to add another good article about the gentic research:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170802134718.htm

Edited by kmt_sesh
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jaylemurph
16 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm

I think it was last year that genetic research was published that shows an affinity between Minoans and Mycenaeans, to a degree most had not realized. It seems the two groups were genetic cousins. Here's an abstract about it (I'm tempted to buy the article):

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

Editing to add another good article about the gentic research:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170802134718.htm

Hey, if you want a copy of the article, let me know and I'll send you a PDF.

--Jaylemurph

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Piney
21 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Apropos of nothing, here's a really interesting article about a Mycenaean grave from Pylos:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161003214021.htm

One of the most magnificent combat scenes ever was found in that grave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos_Combat_Agate

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Harte
10 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

...if you're somehow using Homer as an historical source, you're not really using modern /or/ period sources correctly, and so not in a position to be dictating ethnicities of Greek subcultures.

 

Pac-12. I know. I see signs and banners all the damn time.

--Jaylemurph

Yeah, but two of them don't really count.

Harte

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