An honor killing in Iraq

[Michelle]

I could care less what country, culture or religion allows something that barbaric to happen and actually defends such a reprehensible act...it's immoral.

If anyone thinks I have no right to judge then they are judging me and are no better.

[Fluffybunny]

thats not the issue with me. I would like to know why everyone can come here and judge islam. What gives a normal average person in the west moral authority over the mid-east. Anyways someone open a topic for me. bye

Because in our culture it is illegal and reprehensable to stone a 17 year old girl to death for such a transgression. It is the same place you get your ability to think that the west shouldn't have moral authority over the east; it is a belief system. everyone has one and expresses it at one level or another.

[triplehelix2000]

No one says you have no right. I am just asking, from where do you get this right? Its a simple question. Just answer it.

[triplehelix2000]

so the wests moral authority comes from goverment and the laws they enforce? The US government has supreme moral authority? As a side note dont try to pretend you know what I think. Thats rude.

Edited May 22, 2007 by triplehelix2000

[Michelle]

It's my right as a rational humane being who has a common sense of decency.

[triplehelix2000]

I'll explain it again. It is not an issue whether or not you have it. Where do you get this right? Also is it true that western governments are the fountainhead of morality?

Edited May 22, 2007 by triplehelix2000

[Michelle]

I don't give a rats behind what the government thinks and that has nothing to do with any of this.

[Bob26003]

It's my right as a rational humane being who has a common sense of decency.

Is it your right to Napalm villagers? To engage in crop destruction? To nuke two entire cities of innocents?

[triplehelix2000]

fluffy bunny said that the west is always right because we are in accord with our goverment and laws. so it is a relevant part of this discussion. Where Michelle do you find your sense of moral superiority? apparently its not from the government.

[Fluffybunny]

so the wests moral authority comes from goverment and the laws they enforce? The US government has supreme moral authority? As a side note dont try to pretend you know what I think. Thats rude.

Did you catch the "belief system" part? belief systems are many things that are compiled into what a culture generaly believes in; everything from religion, laws, historical background and such. Study sociology for details but that is it in a sentence. basically the indignant tone you are taking(which is rude to me) tells me that my belief system and yours are different enough that we cannot see eye to eye on whether it is right to pass judgement on a 17 year old getting stoned to death.

You asked and I gave my answer; no need to get snarky about it.

[Michelle]

As I said, the government has nothing to do with my feeling on this matter and shouldn't even be in this discussion.

[Fluffybunny]

fluffy bunny said that the west is always right because we are in accord with our goverment and laws. so it is a relevant part of this discussion. Where Michelle do you find your sense of moral superiority? apparently its not from the government.

actually that is not what I said. If you want to paraphrase it is important that you get it right. You did not understand or are ignoring what I said and putting words in my mouth; not nice.

[triplehelix2000]

hey bob. you seem to be incriminating the west, maybe you can answer my question. From where does the west(or you, if you live in the west) derive your sense of moral authority. yes people, I am pretty much just copying and pasting now, but I really am that interested.

[Bob26003]

Did you catch the "belief system" part? belief systems are many things that are compiled into what a culture generaly believes in; everything from religion, laws, historical background and such. Study sociology for details but that is it in a sentence. basically the indignant tone you are taking(which is rude to me) tells me that my belief system and yours are different enough that we cannot see eye to eye on whether it is right to pass judgement on a 17 year old getting stoned to death.

You asked and I gave my answer; no need to get snarky about it.

The actions (particularly militarily) that our Gov. engages in are in direct opposition to what we would consider American values. Such as freedom, equality, domocracy, every man is equal...... and all that.

[triplehelix2000]

I apologize fluffy. Could you rephrase your response? You did mention western laws and legality, which I see as coming from the government.

[Bob26003]

hey bob. you seem to be incriminating the west, maybe you can answer my question. From where does the west(or you, if you live in the west) derive your sense of moral authority. yes people, I am pretty much just copying and pasting now, but I really am that interested.

Very Very good question.

Well, some folks believe moral authority comes from God........... I do not.

Some folks think because we are Americans, we can do no wrong........ I do not.

The fundamental question of morality to me is: Would I want to be treated like I am treating others.............

And as far as the freedoms Americans have, they were not given to us, there were earned, through blood sweat and tears.

Things like the 40 hr work week and child labor laws and civil rights........ All these things are not inherent in our Gov. but were fought for through popular struggle.

As far as foreign policy, we have no moral authority..............To claim that is completely hypocritical.

Moral authority can never be given, or does not come from somewhere, but rather is dependent solely on the actions of the individual etc........ Having moral authority in one situation in no way gives you moral authority in all situations. Moral authority is not a fixed concept.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Bob26003

[Fluffybunny]

I would like to add that no one here has claimed that the US is a moral figurehead; that we have a perfect past or do not do things that have been immoral. you are getting that from somewhere else and you keep fixating on it when it isn't being claimed; which is interesting in itself.

Just as I would not allow someone to come up and punch Michelle in the face without trying to help break it up; I would not watch or participate in a stoning of a 17 year old girl. My choice, my belief system. My freedom. If you have issues with things that the US has done or is doing then deal with it on an issue by issue basis. 17 year olds getting stoned to death; bad in my opinion...arranged marriages, I couldn't care less...any one of a thousand things has its own answer to each person here including you.

You pass judgement all day everyday, and that you cannot deny.

[triplehelix2000]

But we are mostly english speaking peoples from the west, and many posters here do make judgements about islam and the mid-east. This is happening. People here, who I see as westerners, are condemning islam and the mid-east. My question to those people are, where do you get the authority and right to patronize an entire civilization?

[Fluffybunny]

I apologize fluffy. Could you rephrase your response? You did mention western laws and legality, which I see as coming from the government.

Please reread what you paraphrased from and focus on the "belief system" part of it. The governemtn and law is only a part of the system; not the whole of it. Every country makes illegal what it finds reprehensible, stealing, rape...whatever. That is not to say that laws are the only thing that make a societies belief system, but part of it. The entire belief system is were EVERYONE gets their moral judgements from; even you.

[triplehelix2000]

so bob you are your own moral authority. You are self-righteous? Moral authority can come from somewhere. For muslims it comes from the Koran and mohammed. For christians it comes from the bible and the new testament. So yes moral authority can come from somewhere. If you dont accept that authority is another question.

Edited May 22, 2007 by triplehelix2000

[Fluffybunny]

But we are mostly english speaking peoples from the west, and many posters here do make judgements about islam and the mid-east. This is happening. People here, who I see as westerners, are condemning islam and the mid-east. My question to those people are, where do you get the authority and right to patronize an entire civilization?

I don't think anyone here is making the sweeping judgement you are claiming. Are some people ignorant of other societies? yes, there are ignorant people in EVERY country, culture, neighborhood and so on. Do those ignorant people make claims and comments that are innapropriate? Yes of course, but that does not mean that they speak for everyone else.

I can't continue to rephrase my response. You appear to think that someone is making a sweeping generalization and judgement about an entire civilization. I don't see that here. I see people with a belief system that would not allow the stoning of a 17 year old girl for such a transgression making it very clear that they are disgusted and upset by that; that they disagree with that other culture empatically. And they get to express that just like you get to express your belief.

It is interesting that you are upset that you think that we(all of us it appears) in the west are somehow making sweeping judgements about every aspect; for the average person, that is not the case. As I said there are ignorant people everywhere that do and say ignorant things but you somehow seem to be attaching that to the entirety of the west; which is a bad assumption.

[Fluffybunny]

so bob you are your own moral authority. You are self-righteous? Moral authority can come from somewhere. For muslims it comes from the Koran and mohammed. For christians it comes from the bible and the new testament. So yes moral authority can come from somewhere. If you dont accept that authority is another question.

It comes from more than just the koran and mohammed though; it comes from the given culture. If you go from one place to another in the same country you can find different moral judgements based on the same book; it causes a lot of problems.

Really...take up a sociology class and find out answers to your questions. You are trying to beat the simple answer out that you want, rather than what it actually is, which is very complex.

[triplehelix2000]

fluffy. you make waaaayyyy to many assumptions. Read the posts here. people are making sweeping judgements about islam.

also like I said before dont pretend to be a mind-reader. its lame. I am curious, not upset.

You are probably right though. I am thrying to beat out an answer. saying moral authority is complex isnt an answer either. I've recieved only one response, self-righteousness. I guess this is the root of western moral authority.

Edited May 22, 2007 by triplehelix2000

[Unlimited]

people are making sweeping judgements about islam.

a religion were you blow yourself up to please God...and were making sweeping assumptions.....

[AROCES]

And as far as the freedoms Americans have, they were not given to us, there were earned, through blood sweat and tears.

And yet you won't give the Iraqis a chance and want to surrender to those who are bombing them into submission.

Moral authority can never be given, or does not come from somewhere, but rather is dependent solely on the actions of the individual etc........ Having moral authority in one situation in no way gives you moral authority in all situations. Moral authority is not a fixed concept.

In other words, it does not really exist and can be interpreted in different ways, since it comes from individuals, correct?