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Sherapy

Religion and shame

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Sherapy

Can limitations and teachings such as one who is sinful by nature and in need of forgiveness.... as set down by religion encourage shame???

some circles feel this is a global issue this idea that one is so unworthy they aren't fit to question the creator ......

ideas or systems that respond with coldness, indifference, punishment are really just teaching shame.....

is this a valid inquiry , how does one benefit from feeling sinful and unworthy?? what are the positives...

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GoddessWhispers

In the Abrahamic faiths, I think shame has everything to do with state of mind.

Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.

2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.

3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).

4. not of adequate merit or character.

5. not commendable or creditable.

6. not deserving.

Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.

I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.

There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....

It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.

Thomas Aquinas: “A woman is a man gone wrong.”

(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.

Signed, Mom)

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Sherapy
In the Abrahamic faiths, I think shame has everything to do with state of mind.

Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"

Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.

2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.

3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).

4. not of adequate merit or character.

5. not commendable or creditable.

6. not deserving.

Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.

I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.

There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....

It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.

(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.

Signed, Mom)

HMM Gw you got me thinking....

what I'm wondering is how this translates out in behaviors ??? How can this inspire one ??? thanks for so much thought in n your post GW...((HUGS)))

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TheKnight
Can limitations and teachings such as one who is sinful by nature and in need of forgiveness.... as set down by religion encourage shame???

some circles feel this is a global issue this idea that one is so unworthy they aren't fit to question the creator ......

ideas or systems that respond with coldness, indifference, punishment are really just teaching shame.....

is this a valid inquiry , how does one benefit from feeling sinful and unworthy?? what are the positives...

Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.

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Beckys_Mom
Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.

Little babies and children do not sin

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Sherapy
Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.

CI who has decided these things ??? I am forgiveness and all is forgiven......We create ways out of being punished would you agree , it seems few find it natural to encourage punishment ...

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Sherapy
Little babies and children do not sin

well sis CI says on one hand its human nature all these things as in we are all of it the whole human experience yet on the other calls it sinful and in need of forgiveness....i wonder how this affects ones well being?

One very important indicators of a healthy functional being is how they deal with negative feelings..shame is often a response to emotion that is not being dealt with effectively.....

It is a given that religion preaches a construct of no to low self worth....

Edited by Supra Sheri

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Celumnaz

is humility, being humble, equal to shame? no

is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no

is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes

I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.

how is shame related to pride?

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Sherapy
is humility, being humble, equal to shame? no

is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no

is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes

I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.

how is shame related to pride?

it is well researched that secure beings have a strong feeling of self worth and competence and if pushed are able to aknowledge limitations....

It seems to me religion has little delight in celebrating the wonders or the up side of being human , its seems there is little focus on this yet the whole human experince is all inclusive.....meaning we are all of the good the bad the ups the downs....

How is shame to the point of inner torment good for one???

Goodness is its own virtue and doesn't require acknowledgment according to the canons, yet all that is neggative is hi lighted..i can't help but wonder is this good for a person????and how is it good for them to dwell on the negative????

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GoddessWhispers
HMM Gw you got me thinking....

what I'm wondering is how this translates out in behaviors ??? How can this inspire one ??? thanks for so much thought in n your post GW...((HUGS)))

I'd like to read Hypers take on this, as they have the psychological expertise, if I'm not mistaken.

How would one act if they accepted that personal status of unworthiness and inadequacy in the eyes of one's maker. I wouldn't dare hazard a guess diagnosing a behavior that would accompany such personal religious faith. I would actually wonder if there would be a psychological profile, if you will, of such persons. Considering first that one would have to first consider all sects beneath the religious umbrella and ascertain how many instill a sense of inadequacy, or unworthiness as human beings in the eyes of their creator.

I know the Abrahamic all do. What others would qualify, that we know of?! Because I think then, one would have to take that list and consider the cultural implications that may (or may not) fundamentally invest in that ideology. Taking it as more than just a compromise of one's personal esteem, to say even physical sacrifice. As in those that commit to self-flagellation. (figuratively or literally), or renounce their sensuality. (celibacy) (Saw a special on Nun's the other night. Imagine being a nun that commits self-flagellation! They interviewed an old sister that was the first nun in the order to actually make the knotted whips!

Imagine an analogy like that one: Nun's marry christ! (No honeymoon till they're dead. Hmmm the promise of sex in heaven. Where have I heard that before?! :unsure2: ) whipping themselves in service to their commitment to the church and god. "I'm married to jesus." WHIP! "I'm married to jesus" WHIP!

In secular life, if that was a married woman beating herself every night because she was married, she'd be medicated or maybe hospitalized, as a danger to herself and others, one would think.

It's like, hey junior, where's your mom?

She's in the bedroom whipping herself because she's married to daddy.

:blink:

Pain, suffering, death. Three things communicated by god as necessary to please it's will. A will that is already set, because it's part of the plan in the making by an omnipotent omniscient omnipresence. So perhaps it can be said, if god is all, then all human dysfunction and all human goodness, is gods doing. So when you ask what behaviors faiths that impart a sense of self-abnegation and unworthiness, would be responsible for, I'd say as many as are exampled by those that hold to the faith they're unworthy as human beings, to worship the power that made them so, as part of it's plan.

But can it be a bad thing!? If one is religious and believes as such?! Because if they worship an all knowing power, and believe everything is part of a plan, then no matter what happens within the realm of omniscient omnipresence, everything is as it should be, because it's all going according to plan.

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Shadow_Hill
How is shame to the point of inner torment good for one???

It's not good for us humans... it's good for gods who require us to feel it in order to require salvation. What point would there be in worshipping gods who require such activity if there was no sin to be forgiven for? Why would any of us choose to follow the Abrahamic god, for example, considering his track record when it comes to cruelty to humans, if there was no necessity? It is the shame we are forced to feel and to confront which leads to fear of punishment, and that leads us to seek forgiveness from the god who made us feel shameful and fearful in the first place by labelling the most human and unharmful of acts a sin.

I question everything, including the existence of the Creator I believe in, and I do not consider myself sinful, so I do not live in shame. These two things have been enough to have people label me arrogant... for refusing to cow tow before a god who would have me feel unworthy my entire life simply for being a human being.

How does one grow when they consider themselves to be less than? It's not possible. Instead the person spends their whole life feeling that nothing they do is ever enough... it's like trying to run up the down escalator... your little legs keep on going and yet you never get anywhere near the top. There is no joy in such an existence.

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Sherapy
I'd like to read Hypers take on this, as they have the psychological expertise, if I'm not mistaken.

How would one act if they accepted that personal status of unworthiness and inadequacy in the eyes of one's maker. I wouldn't dare hazard a guess diagnosing a behavior that would accompany such personal religious faith. I would actually wonder if there would be a psychological profile, if you will, of such persons. Considering first that one would have to first consider all sects beneath the religious umbrella and ascertain how many instill a sense of inadequacy, or unworthiness as human beings in the eyes of their creator.

I know the Abrahamic all do. What others would qualify, that we know of?! Because I think then, one would have to take that list and consider the cultural implications that may (or may not) fundamentally invest in that ideology. Taking it as more than just a compromise of one's personal esteem, to say even physical sacrifice. As in those that commit to self-flagellation. (figuratively or literally), or renounce their sensuality. (celibacy) (Saw a special on Nun's the other night. Imagine being a nun that commits self-flagellation! They interviewed an old sister that was the first nun in the order to actually make the knotted whips!

Imagine an analogy like that one: Nun's marry christ! (No honeymoon till they're dead. Hmmm the promise of sex in heaven. Where have I heard that before?! :unsure2: ) whipping themselves in service to their commitment to the church and god. "I'm married to jesus." WHIP! "I'm married to jesus" WHIP!

In secular life, if that was a married woman beating herself every night because she was married, she'd be medicated or maybe hospitalized, as a danger to herself and others, one would think.

It's like, hey junior, where's your mom?

She's in the bedroom whipping herself because she's married to daddy.

:blink:

Pain, suffering, death. Three things communicated by god as necessary to please it's will. A will that is already set, because it's part of the plan in the making by an omnipotent omniscient omnipresence. So perhaps it can be said, if god is all, then all human dysfunction and all human goodness, is gods doing. So when you ask what behaviors faiths that impart a sense of self-abnegation and unworthiness, would be responsible for, I'd say as many as are exampled by those that hold to the faith they're unworthy as human beings, to worship the power that made them so, as part of it's plan.

But can it be a bad thing!? If one is religious and believes as such?! Because if they worship an all knowing power, and believe everything is part of a plan, then no matter what happens within the realm of omniscient omnipresence, everything is as it should be, because it's all going according to plan.

have i told you lately your writing skills are exemplary, one feels as if they are there LOL...quite a visual on the analogy.. yet you bring in a great point....

How is this so exceptable to shame oneself with in the confines of religion yet in life you truly would be considered depressed or in need of a hug.....

I intend to Pm doc for his expertise also....

what i am wondering is if shame is good for you?? Many say it is as is being racked in guilt ,yet many are in therapy dealing with this or on medication..........

I almost feel as if it would be inhumane on my part to encourage anyone to feel shame or guilt.....i certainly won't do this with myslef as its well documented that guilt is actaully harmful for your health......

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Sherapy
It's not good for us humans... it's good for gods who require us to feel it in order to require salvation. What point would there be in worshipping gods who require such activity if there was no sin to be forgiven for? Why would any of us choose to follow the Abrahamic god, for example, considering his track record when it comes to cruelty to humans, if there was no necessity? It is the shame we are forced to feel and to confront which leads to fear of punishment, and that leads us to seek forgiveness from the god who made us feel shameful and fearful in the first place by labelling the most human and unharmful of acts a sin.

I question everything, including the existence of the Creator I believe in, and I do not consider myself sinful, so I do not live in shame. These two things have been enough to have people label me arrogant... for refusing to cow tow before a god who would have me feel unworthy my entire life simply for being a human being.

How does one grow when they consider themselves to be less than? It's not possible. Instead the person spends their whole life feeling that nothing they do is ever enough... it's like trying to run up the down escalator... your little legs keep on going and yet you never get anywhere near the top. There is no joy in such an existence.

Gosh S that is a great point one i have wondered too ALOT, why would one align with such a deity sort of a lesser god if you will....how do you grow if you are feeling less than??? what does one set as an inspiration if there is no hope and there are actual religions who flat out say no human will ever be as Jesus the door is closed he was the only one so don't try.........Gosh is it just me or is this pitiful ????

Edited by Supra Sheri

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texasgirlheather
well sis CI says on one hand its human nature all these things as in we are all of it the whole human experience yet on the other calls it sinful and in need of forgiveness....i wonder how this affects ones well being?

One very important indicators of a healthy functional being is how they deal with negative feelings..shame is often a response to emotion that is not being dealt with effectively.....

It is a given that religion preaches a construct of no to low self worth....

God doesn't fit inside of your limited psychology construct.

Gosh S that is a great point one i have wondered too ALOT, why would one align with such a deity sort of a lesser god if you will....how do you grow if you are feeling less than??? waht does one set as an inspiration if there is no hope and ther are actaul relgions who flat out say no human will ever be as jesus.....Gosh is it just me or is this pitiful ????

It's just you.

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Sherapy
God doesn't fit inside of your limited psychology construct.

It's just you.

Texas maybe you can answer how is shame good for you????

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IamsSon

You may have something there Sheri. Religion, being nothing more than man's doomed attempt to do something to reach God may well result in shame, and only in shame, or in incorrectly placed shame. I'm not sure how that would apply to a relationship with God which is intended to allow you the freedom to grow and develop into the person you were always intended to be.

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texasgirlheather
Texas maybe you can answer how is shame good for you????

Shame is an indicator that one has gone past the God-given boundaries of the conscience; it is a guide that represents the need for self-correction. It is a message from your conscience to your mind that some correcting needs to be done. Of course this only works if you still have a conscience.

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texasgirlheather

We seem to be confusing experiencing moments of shame for certain actions, with a perpetual state of shame, which is unhealthy and counter-productive, and itself an indicator that something is really wrong. God does not call for me to live in shame, and I don't. However, I experience shame when I do wrong, to a degree that directly corresponds to what I have done and how much I am aware of it.

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Sherapy
You may have something there Sheri. Religion, being nothing more than man's doomed attempt to do something to reach God may well result in shame, and only in shame, or in incorrectly placed shame. I'm not sure how that would apply to a relationship with God which is intended to allow you the freedom to grow and develop into the person you were always intended to be.

Great post son, does this play out if one feels they are sinful and unworthy???

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IamsSon
Great post son, does this play out if one feels they are sinful and unworthy???

Yes, it does, because once you have acknowledged your sin and accepted God's gift, you are no longer unworthy... not because of anything you do, but because God bathes you in complete righteousness, and you are granted freedom from sin, so like heather said, it is not a constant state of shame, just shame when you know you have failed to be the person you are now completely free to be, but not constant, in fact it is a life that leads to joy and fulfillment.

Edited by IamsSon

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Sherapy
We seem to be confusing experiencing moments of shame for certain actions, with a perpetual state of shame, which is unhealthy and counter-productive, and itself an indicator that something is really wrong. God does not call for me to live in shame, and I don't. However, I experience shame when I do wrong, to a degree that directly corresponds to what I have done and how much I am aware of it.

what sort of things would this include heather ???

It sounds as if you are defining conscience that is a natural barometer we all have based on what we have decided is working or isn't working as its not producing an intended result and one seeks to correct or produce the intended result as in a natural consequence not an enforced one or make up one if you will ...all things have a cause and effect its life.... but it never requires one to feel bad about themselves or walk in shame....its the most natural thing in the world to want to create benefical behaviors for all involved this is natural to the secure human.........

what i'm saying is its natural l to want to be our best and if we aren't for whatever reasons its the most natural thing in the world to correct this...

Edited by Supra Sheri

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texasgirlheather
what sort of things would this include heather ???

It sounds as if you are defining conscience that is a natural barometer we all have based on what we have decided is working or isn't working as its not producing an intended result and one seeks to correct or produce the intended result as in a natural consequence not an enforced one or make up one if you will ...all things have a cause and effect its life.... but it never requires one to feel bad about themselves or walk in shame....its the most natural thing in the world to want to create benefical behaviors for all involved this is natural to the secure human.........

what i'm saying is its natural l to want to be our best and if we aren't for whatever reasons its the most natural thing in the world to correct this...

What sort of things would what include? I am not sure what you are referring to. What is included in doing wrong that I would feel ashamed of? Is this your question? I'm just not sure what you are asking.

And some people have a process called "awareness of wrongdoing and remorse for it." You know, remorse! That little thing that the court system looks for in people who have done wrong as a sign of accepting responsibility.

Edited by texasgirlheather

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=Jak=

"You Know You're Right", Nirvana exploded into the mainstream, bringing along with it a subgenre of alternative rock called grunge.

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Sherapy
Yes, it does, because once you have acknowledged your sin and accepted God's gift, you are no longer unworthy... not because of anything you do, but because God bathes you in complete righteousness, and you are granted freedom from sin, so like heather said, it is not a constant state of shame, just shame when you know you have failed to be the person you are now completely free to be, but not constant, in fact it is a life that leads to joy and fulfillment.

let me make sure I understand you.. is this after you have excepted this forgiveness then after that you live, say as i do not ever feeling shame or guilt, nor do you ever feel sinful or unworthy as its unproductive and a dsyfunctional use of ones life ....

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Sherapy
What sort of things would what include? I am not sure what you are referring to. What is included in doing wrong that I would feel ashamed of? Is this your question? I'm just not sure what you asking.

And some people have a process called "awareness of wrongdoing and remorse for it." You know, remorse! That little thing that the court system looks for in people who have done wrong as a sign of accepting responsibility.

well it depends on how one is describing remorse, in my world it would seek to make a win win for all it would not require apologies or sorries or feeling bad or any type of punishment it would be used to gain wisdom and this wisdom would be applied and the mis-intended would not be repeated....Acceptance of responsibilty never means taking a fall, or being punished.... it means creating the behavior desired. and how one intends to do this and does this.............

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