Religion and shame

[IamsSon]

no son I am not saying any such thing......its important we stay on track here, many spend years mired in guilt and many think you should hang on to it forever and that you should feel bad about yourself.......but guilt and regret are not the same thing...because i have stooped using guilt or shame doesn't mean i do not have regret on occassion...... yet son regret is instructive while guilt is debilatating, crippling..we are growing as humans and the idea is to move forward To make something worthwhile out of our journeys. to learn from our mistakes and apply the wisdoms not repeatt he same things over and over as i observe happens........i do not observe religion to encompass this message its about getting back at one, revenge, taking a fall, taking ones medicine., punishment as payment. the price is self punishing not growth or correcting., this has been addressed through out the post.....

re·gret (rĭ-grĕt')

v., -gret·ted, -gret·ting, -grets.

v.tr.

1. To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.

2. To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

v.intr.

To feel regret.

n.

1. A sense of loss and longing for someone or something gone.

2. A feeling of disappointment or distress about something that one wishes could be different.

3. regrets A courteous expression of regret, especially at having to decline an invitation.

[Middle English regretten, to lament, from Old French regreter : re-, re- + -greter, to weep (perhaps of Germanic origin).]

regretter re·gret'ter n.

SYNONYMS regret, sorrow, grief, anguish, woe, heartache, heartbreak. These nouns denote mental distress. Regret has the broadest range, from mere disappointment to a painful sense of dissatisfaction or self-reproach, as over something lost or done: She looked back with regret on the pain she had caused her family. Sorrow connotes sadness caused by misfortune, affliction, or loss; it can also imply contrition: “sorrow for his … children, who needed his protection, and whom he could not protect” (James Baldwin). Grief is deep, acute personal sorrow, as that arising from irreplaceable loss: “Grief fills the room up of my absent child,/Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me” (Shakespeare). Anguish implies agonizing, excruciating mental pain: “I pray that our heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement” (Abraham Lincoln). Woe is intense, often prolonged wretchedness or misery: “the deep, unutterable woe/Which none save exiles feel” (W.E. Aytoun). Heartache most often applies to sustained private sorrow: The child's difficulties are a source of heartache to the parents. Heartbreak is overwhelming grief: “Better a little chiding than a great deal of heartbreak” (Shakespeare).

guilt (gĭlt)

n.

1. The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See synonyms at blame.

2. Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

3.

1. Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

2. Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.

4. Guilty conduct; sin.

tr.v., guilt·ed, guilt·ing, guilts.

To make or try to make (someone) feel guilty.

[Middle English gilt, from Old English gylt, crime.]

I don't know.... guilt seems to be a more manageable and intelligent response than regret. I don't know many people who live with debilitating guilt. I certainly don't know any spiritual Christians who do, and really can't think of even a non-Christian I know who lives a guilt-wracked life. Do you know people who live wracked by guilt?

[+Sherapy]

I would say, Sheri, that neither guilt nor shame are crippling or debilitating. It is entirely down to the individual as to how they wish to use these emotions.

http://www.drmillslmu.com/Evolpsyc/spr2004...ary-3-11-04.htm

I found this to be interesting too have a look leo...

[+Sherapy]

re·gret (rĭ-grĕt')

v., -gret·ted, -gret·ting, -grets.

v.tr.

1. To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.

2. To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

v.intr.

To feel regret.

n.

1. A sense of loss and longing for someone or something gone.

2. A feeling of disappointment or distress about something that one wishes could be different.

3. regrets A courteous expression of regret, especially at having to decline an invitation.

[Middle English regretten, to lament, from Old French regreter : re-, re- + -greter, to weep (perhaps of Germanic origin).]

regretter re·gret'ter n.

SYNONYMS regret, sorrow, grief, anguish, woe, heartache, heartbreak. These nouns denote mental distress. Regret has the broadest range, from mere disappointment to a painful sense of dissatisfaction or self-reproach, as over something lost or done: She looked back with regret on the pain she had caused her family. Sorrow connotes sadness caused by misfortune, affliction, or loss; it can also imply contrition: “sorrow for his … children, who needed his protection, and whom he could not protect” (James Baldwin). Grief is deep, acute personal sorrow, as that arising from irreplaceable loss: “Grief fills the room up of my absent child,/Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me” (Shakespeare). Anguish implies agonizing, excruciating mental pain: “I pray that our heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement” (Abraham Lincoln). Woe is intense, often prolonged wretchedness or misery: “the deep, unutterable woe/Which none save exiles feel” (W.E. Aytoun). Heartache most often applies to sustained private sorrow: The child's difficulties are a source of heartache to the parents. Heartbreak is overwhelming grief: “Better a little chiding than a great deal of heartbreak” (Shakespeare).

guilt (gĭlt)

n.

1. The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See synonyms at blame.

2. Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.

3.

1. Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.

2. Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.

4. Guilty conduct; sin.

tr.v., guilt·ed, guilt·ing, guilts.

To make or try to make (someone) feel guilty.

[Middle English gilt, from Old English gylt, crime.]

I don't know.... guilt seems to be a more manageable and intelligent response than regret. I don't know many people who live with debilitating guilt. I certainly don't know any spiritual Christians who do, and really can't think of even a non-Christian I know who lives a guilt-wracked life. Do you know people who live wracked by guilt?

son feeling guilty is a learned response, in essence you have been told to feel guilty about yourself for things you you did before you could do anything.. are you inferring that you as a relgious person do not calll things a 'sin' as taught to you by your construct?????

isn't interesting that relgions justify this idea of a punishing god by creating something to feel bad or shameful about (sin) , so that even exemplary folks are told they need to be saved even when they really don't need to be saved, so in comes well you need to be saved from your own inbuilt imperfections ..... ... this is how guilt and shame is being used in relgion my freind.......

[+joc]

isn't interesting that relgions justify this idea of a punishing god by creating something to feel bad or shameful about (sin) , so that even exemplary folks are told they need to be saved even when they really don't need to be saved, so in comes well you need to be saved from your own inbuilt imperfections ..... ... this is how guilt and shame is being used in relgion my freind.......

Sheri is able to obtain this view because she is not in the 'forest' of religion. Those who are deeply involved in religion find it difficult to obtain this view...because in order to they must step outside of their religious boxes. As I have said, I go to church, but I am not 'involved' in the church, or as they like to put it...'plugged in'...I don't want to be plugged in...I sit and listen to the preacher...and from time to time the preacher slams that part of the congregation [i.e. me] for not being involved...and yes...the way he puts it is intended to create guilt for not partaking in a 'meaningful' way. I don't feel guilty ...but many do...and they use the same technique to bring in money...using guilt as a catalyst for giving!

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

[+Sherapy]

Sheri is able to obtain this view because she is not in the 'forest' of religion. Those who are deeply involved in religion find it difficult to obtain this view...because in order to they must step outside of their religious boxes. As I have said, I go to church, but I am not 'involved' in the church, or as they like to put it...'plugged in'...I don't want to be plugged in...I sit and listen to the preacher...and from time to time the preacher slams that part of the congregation [i.e. me] for not being involved...and yes...the way he puts it is intended to create guilt for not partaking in a 'meaningful' way. I don't feel guilty ...but many do...and they use the same technique to bring in money...using guilt as a catalyst for giving!

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

.

thanks Joc.... imagine my surprise..lol

[Barek Halfhand]

this is one of those 3 tylonol threads cupcake! .....B

halfhandshuffle:Missing Persons - Words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNU_wyQbAv4

[rev r]

Sheri,

Answer a few questions for me. How is this constant admonishment of the "religious construct" not an attempt to use guilt in order to cause people to abandon what they believe? All that is missing from your comments is that the religious (namely Christians) should be ashamed of themselves for believing as they do.

How is this adversarial role you have placed yourself in representative of this "oneness construct" you preach (sorry but yes you do preach)?

[IamsSon]

son feeling guilty is a learned response, in essence you have been told to feel guilty about yourself for things you you did before you could do anything.. are you inferring that you as a relgious person do not calll things a 'sin' as taught to you by your construct?????isn't interesting that relgions justify this idea of a punishing god by creating something to feel bad or shameful about (sin) , so that even exemplary folks are told they need to be saved even when they really don't need to be saved, so in comes well you need to be saved from your own inbuilt imperfections ..... ... this is how guilt and shame is being used in relgion my freind.......

Guilt is used by non-religious people too, Sheri.

Sheri is able to obtain this view because she is not in the 'forest' of religion. Those who are deeply involved in religion find it difficult to obtain this view...because in order to they must step outside of their religious boxes. As I have said, I go to church, but I am not 'involved' in the church, or as they like to put it...'plugged in'...I don't want to be plugged in...I sit and listen to the preacher...and from time to time the preacher slams that part of the congregation [i.e. me] for not being involved...and yes...the way he puts it is intended to create guilt for not partaking in a 'meaningful' way. I don't feel guilty ...but many do...and they use the same technique to bring in money...using guilt as a catalyst for giving!

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

Can I ask a question, since you are not plugged in and don't believe in the Bible or church... why do you go?

[+Sherapy]

Sheri,

Answer a few questions for me. How is this constant admonishment of the "religious construct" not an attempt to use guilt in order to cause people to abandon what they believe? All that is missing from your comments is that the religious (namely Christians) should be ashamed of themselves for believing as they do.

How is this adversarial role you have placed yourself in representative of this "oneness construct" you preach (sorry but yes you do preach)?

I have no preference in ones choices Rev or an adgenda ....its my point of view nothing more that i am sharing ..... .... preach as in follow my way or else and insult you......you will not find this from me... ..... .... IMO....I'm a strong gal don't deny that though LOL...

IMO it could be of benefit in our world enormously, right now...... to seek reconciliation between the many separate and disparate elements within our present societal structure .....I'm not a sit on my laurels type...yet this is only one pov not the only one and not nessecarily the most insightful.......

Edited May 31, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[+Sherapy]

Guilt is used by non-religious people too, Sheri.

Can I ask a question, since you are not plugged in and don't believe in the Bible or church... why do you go?

indeed religion does permeate alot of systems....

[rev r]

.IMO it would benefit our world enormously right now to seek reconcilliation between the many separate and disparate elements within our present societal structure .....I'm not a sit on my laurels type...yet this is only one pov not the only one and not nessecarily the most insightful.......

nice ninja edit.

Definitely strong willed.

How does one seek reconciliation through the identification of shortcomings? Is it not wiser to seek reconciliation through the identification of commonality?

In terms of this discussion, for example, that as humans we all make mistakes. The means that we use to identify and correct our own personal failures are immaterial.

I have a saying (ok I have a lot of them but this one is relevant), if you want to bury the hatchet you sometimes have to dig your own hole.

[+Sherapy]

nice ninja edit.

Definitely strong willed.

How does one seek reconciliation through the identification of shortcomings? Is it not wiser to seek reconciliation through the identification of commonality?

In terms of this discussion, for example, that as humans we all make mistakes. The means that we use to identify and correct our own personal failures are immaterial.

I have a saying (ok I have a lot of them but this one is relevant), if you want to bury the hatchet you sometimes have to dig your own hole.

except that is not what is happening Rev... observably so, 2000 plus years later we arent'any closer to commonality then when we started.....because its common goals that bring us together.....we as a whole can't even agree on anything ...not even that there is a common goal to begin with...

I'm exploring it rev deeply and profoundly exploring your question and it s a good one my freind,

.

our flaws are our greatest avenues to growth, In my life my flaws have been my greatest strengths i am not afraid to look at them....

i have a saying for you and i think you will like it..".illuminate the rooms of your mansion... "

Edited May 31, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[texasgirlheather]

this is one of those 3 tylonol threads cupcake! .....B

halfhandshuffle:Missing Persons - Words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNU_wyQbAv4

()()()

[+joc]

QUOTE(joc @ May 30 2007, 07:17 PM) *

Sheri is able to obtain this view because she is not in the 'forest' of religion. Those who are deeply involved in religion find it difficult to obtain this view...because in order to they must step outside of their religious boxes. As I have said, I go to church, but I am not 'involved' in the church, or as they like to put it...'plugged in'...I don't want to be plugged in...I sit and listen to the preacher...and from time to time the preacher slams that part of the congregation [i.e. me] for not being involved...and yes...the way he puts it is intended to create guilt for not partaking in a 'meaningful' way. I don't feel guilty ...but many do...and they use the same technique to bring in money...using guilt as a catalyst for giving!

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

Can I ask a question, since you are not plugged in and don't believe in the Bible or church... why do you go?

It isn't necessary to put words in my mouth...I never said that I don't believe in the Bible or the church.

[+Sherapy]

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

Can I ask a question, since you are not plugged in and don't believe in the Bible or church... why do you go?

It isn't necessary to put words in my mouth...I never said that I don't believe in the Bible or the church.

Joc I am a NB and have been to many different churches on invites from friends, I have been to baptisms, to prayer meetings and have been on a retreat, I have been in a krishna community and a buudhist temple I have many relgious freinds of many kinds and am invited to many things and always am honored to attend........ this has served me to great benefit in communing wth my brothers and sisters i see no division or walls and i can't speak on behalf of joc but i bet his reasons are similar......

[IamsSon]

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

Can I ask a question, since you are not plugged in and don't believe in the Bible or church... why do you go?

It isn't necessary to put words in my mouth...I never said that I don't believe in the Bible or the church.

OK, I guess I misunderstood some of your other posts, but still, why do you go to church, since you see it as people either trying to get you *GASP* involved in activities, and trying to guilt you into giving them money?

[eqgumby]

http://www.drmillslmu.com/Evolpsyc/spr2004...ary-3-11-04.htm

I found this to be interesting too have a look leo...

Awe, contempt, embarrassment, excitement, guilt, interest, shame, and surprise are eight other emotions that are possibly universal.

The above quote is from the paper you provided a link to. Thanks for once again proving my point.

[Radian]

Joc I am a NB and have been to many different churches on invites from friends, I have been to baptisms, to prayer meetings and have been on a retreat, I have been in a krishna community and a buudhist temple I have many relgious freinds of many kinds and am invited to many things and always am honored to attend........ this has served me to great benefit in communing wth my brothers and sisters i see no division or walls and i can't speak on behalf of joc but i bet his reasons are similar......

For anyone who is willing to open their minds and hearts and do such things show remarkable character. Many people wouldn't take advantage of invites when it could very well contradict their own feelings or beliefs. To be willing to open your heart and mind up shows an acceptable tolerance many do NOT have.

[+Sherapy]

OK, I guess I misunderstood some of your other posts, but still, why do you go to church, since you see it as people either trying to get you *GASP* involved in activities, and trying to guilt you into giving them money?

as a matter of fact he is a christian and honored to be one, he also never said it was all bad an dhe can exeprince his spiritual journey any way he sees fit ???..... If i may son don't you attend other churches and functions and have many freinds yourself of many constructs??? Friends share with each other their is no division in firendships only understanding and harmony..... why would you be asking joc why he goes to church????

[eqgumby]

Sheri is able to obtain this view because she is not in the 'forest' of religion. Those who are deeply involved in religion find it difficult to obtain this view...because in order to they must step outside of their religious boxes. As I have said, I go to church, but I am not 'involved' in the church, or as they like to put it...'plugged in'...I don't want to be plugged in...I sit and listen to the preacher...and from time to time the preacher slams that part of the congregation [i.e. me] for not being involved...and yes...the way he puts it is intended to create guilt for not partaking in a 'meaningful' way. I don't feel guilty ...but many do...and they use the same technique to bring in money...using guilt as a catalyst for giving!

Sheri does not err. Not on this point. Right on Girl! ((Hugs))LOL it's okay eggumby...it's really not that bad!LOL((Hugs))

LOL ((HUGS)) You're right, it's worse than I thought!

You go to a crappy church run by a crappy minister. Why the hell do you go? It would be like hating Led Zep and going to one of their concerts...stupid.

This is, again, and as usual, Sheri deciding for the rest of the world what Christianity is, what it's all about, and how it's inherently evil.

And joc, I am still totally stuck on why you would go to a church like that. That's just...like poking yourself in the eye. Stupid.

Edited May 31, 2007 by eqgumby

[Radian]

why would you be asking joc why he goes to church????

Why should it even matter.

[eqgumby]

as a matter of fact he is a christian and honored to be one, he also never said it was all bad an dhe can exeprince his spiritual journey any way he sees fit ???..... If i may son don't you attend other churches and functions and have many freinds yourself of many constructs??? Friends share with each other their is no division in firendships only understanding and harmony..... why would you be asking joc why he goes to church????

Because you ..........., joc said himself his minister uses guilt and shame and he described it as a negative experience! GOD, do you just BEG to cause conflict? Sheesh.

[IamsSon]

as a matter of fact he is a christian and honored to be one, he also never said it was all bad an dhe can exeprince his spiritual journey any way he sees fit ???..... If i may son don't you attend other churches and functions and have many freinds yourself of many constructs??? Friends share with each other their is no division in firendships only understanding and harmony..... why would you be asking joc why he goes to church????

I'm NOT questioning his right to take whatever spiritual journey he wants to take, I am asking why he goes to church if he sees their desire to connect with him as a guilt trip to connect and if he sees giving as also just a guilt trip. I would NOT go to church if that's how I felt about it.

Yes, in fact, I have friends here on UM of many "constructs" and also in real life.

[Radian]

..........., joc said himself his minister uses guilt and shame and he described it as a negative experience!

Some people go to hear the word of the scriptures...to be around members of the church... many people complain about the same things Joc has, yet they go back to church every Sunday.

[+Sherapy]

For anyone who is willing to open their minds and hearts and do such things show remarkable character. Many people wouldn't take advantage of invites when it could very well contradict their own feelings or beliefs. To be willing to open your heart and mind up shows an acceptable tolerance many do NOT have.

Sunni its fun and at present my home schooled son and i have been honored to be included in the christian home school group in my area a freind of mine who doesn't home school herself felt that this group would love to have us and sunni they are so sweet to us they know we are nB's and have been so sweet as to ask if we my son and i are comfortable with the beginning prayer.. of course we are... also on more than one occassion in a group of christians it has been made aware that i am a NB and to be resepctful of that..i have Christain freinds who feel this is the way we should treat each other.... embrace diversity ....