Religion and shame

[IamsSon]

Why should it even matter.

Ever heard of simple curiosity?

If I felt about my church the way he seems to feel about his I would not attend, so I'm curious why he goes.

[Michelle]

Because you ..........., joc said himself his minister uses guilt and shame and he described it as a negative experience! GOD, do you just BEG to cause conflict? Sheesh.

She's demonstrating how there is no division, only understanding and harmony in her life.

IamsSon wants to join in jocs in spiritial journey for further understanding and growth.

[Radian]

Ever heard of simple curiosity?

If I felt about my church the way he seems to feel about his I would not attend, so I'm curious why he goes.

Honestly, If I felt that way about mine, I wouldn't go neither. .. and another truth is it's hard to find a church where there isn't any negativity to some extent.

It's hard here, every single one of these churches have been struck by lightening.... seriously.

[+joc]

I go to church because my wife wants me to. She is also a christian and wants our daughter to grow up in a church. I go out of respect for her. I could say no...but why should I? I respect her and I enjoy some parts of church.

Let's talk about church for a moment...because I am very well versed in it. I know the ins and outs of 'church'. Let me explain a few points.

1. If you stopped preaching Jesus in the churches...which btw, many already have...you will still have a church. But if you stop collecting money...the church will fold like cards in a wind.

2. God doesn't need the money of man...the Bible says the streets of God's heaven are paved in pure gold...our money is just so much asphalt to God.

3. If preachers didn't receive a paycheck...there wouldn't be any preachers.

4. Are you seeing a pattern here? The churches, no matter what denomination, are completely tethered to the dollar. Therefore, they have left their first love (Jesus) and cling to what they believe is necessary to spread the Gospel (money).

5. Money isn't necessary to spread the Gospel. No, it isn't. All that is necessary is that you open your mouth and tell whomever...Jesus died and was resurrected and you are forgiven. They will either except it or not. It isn't your call.

The Churches be they Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, insert denomination are corrupted by money. Therefore they cannot and should not be trusted. Are they evil snakes in the grass? No. (however some indeed are!) Churches provide many admirable functions...helping loved ones cope with death, etc. I am not anti-church...the church is Anti-Christ.

You may call it stupid Eggumby...it isn't really...in that all churches are alike in the regard of putting money first...it matters not a twit which one you attend...and I attend out of respect for my wife and daughter.

Edited May 31, 2007 by joc

[MissMelsWell]

du·plic·i·ty /duˈplɪsɪti, dyu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[doo-plis-i-tee, dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. deceitfulness in speech or conduct; speaking or acting in two different ways concerning the same matter with intent to deceive; double-dealing.

2. a twofold or double state or quality.

[eqgumby]

She's demonstrating how there is no division, only understanding and harmony in her life.

IamsSon wants to join in jocs in spiritial journey for further understanding and growth.

You did NOT just do that!!!

:angry2:

Your asswhoopin is in the mail!

[eqgumby]

I go to church because my wife wants me to. She is also a christian and wants our daughter to grow up in a church. I go out of respect for her. I could say no...but why should I? I respect her and I enjoy some parts of church.

You may call it stupid Eggumby...it isn't really...in that all churches are alike in the regard of putting money first...it matters not a twit which one you attend...and I attend out of respect for my wife and daughter.

I think you're compromising something too important to compromise on, but if you do it out of respect for the spouse and kiddie...you could make worse compromises, that's for sure.

[+Sherapy]

You did NOT just do that!!!

:angry2:

Your asswhoopin is in the mail!

oh eggy don't worry hon michelle and you are on the same page she is being sarcastic not supportive of me... drop her a pm she will agree with you...

[eqgumby]

oh eggy don't worry hon michelle and you are on the same page she is being sarcastic not supportive of me... drop her a pm she will agree with you...

I guess you missed the tongue in cheek there...

I'll try to dumb it down for you...smartass.

Edited May 31, 2007 by eqgumby

[IamsSon]

du·plic·i·ty /duˈplɪsɪti, dyu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[doo-plis-i-tee, dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. deceitfulness in speech or conduct; speaking or acting in two different ways concerning the same matter with intent to deceive; double-dealing.

2. a twofold or double state or quality.

[texasgirlheather]

I go to church because my wife wants me to. She is also a christian and wants our daughter to grow up in a church. I go out of respect for her. I could say no...but why should I? I respect her and I enjoy some parts of church.

Let's talk about church for a moment...because I am very well versed in it. I know the ins and outs of 'church'. Let me explain a few points.

1. If you stopped preaching Jesus in the churches...which btw, many already have...you will still have a church. But if you stop collecting money...the church will fold like cards in a wind.

2. God doesn't need the money of man...the Bible says the streets of God's heaven are paved in pure gold...our money is just so much asphalt to God.

3. If preachers didn't receive a paycheck...there wouldn't be any preachers.

4. Are you seeing a pattern here? The churches, no matter what denomination, are completely tethered to the dollar. Therefore, they have left their first love (Jesus) and cling to what they believe is necessary to spread the Gospel (money).

5. Money isn't necessary to spread the Gospel. No, it isn't. All that is necessary is that you open your mouth and tell whomever...Jesus died and was resurrected and you are forgiven. They will either except it or not. It isn't your call.

The Churches be they Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, insert denomination are corrupted by money. Therefore they cannot and should not be trusted. Are they evil snakes in the grass? No. (however some indeed are!) Churches provide many admirable functions...helping loved ones cope with death, etc. I am not anti-church...the church is Anti-Christ.

You may call it stupid Eggumby...it isn't really...in that all churches are alike in the regard of putting money first...it matters not a twit which one you attend...and I attend out of respect for my wife and daughter.

" God doesn't need the money of man...the Bible says the streets of God's heaven are paved in pure gold...our money is just so much asphalt to God."

God doesn't need the money of man... true, however: Point 1.. Needy people do, and a true, spirit-filled church is about giving to the community and to the world in it's missionary programs. Needless to say, there are many corrupt, apostate churches whose goal is more devious than this in many areas, not just financial ones. Point 2.. Tithing is a sacrifice, much like fasting and forsaking carnal thought patterns, that is intended to distance one's habits from the world's lifeless, robotically sinful lifestyle. It is also a way of not allowing oneself to become attached to, and controlled by, love of money. So, you might not agree with the practice of tithing and giving, however that does not negate the Biblical imperative to do so for several reasons, all of which result in the believer being blessed, and many MANY others being blessed exponentially.

[+joc]

du·plic·i·ty /duˈplɪsɪti, dyu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[doo-plis-i-tee, dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. deceitfulness in speech or conduct; speaking or acting in two different ways concerning the same matter with intent to deceive; double-dealing.

2. a twofold or double state or quality.

Who is it this directed at?

[+joc]

Tithing is a sacrifice, much like fasting and forsaking carnal thought patterns, that is intended to distance one's habits from the world's lifeless, robotically sinful lifestyle. It is also a way of not allowing oneself to become attached to, and controlled by, love of money. So, you might not agree with the practice of tithing and giving, however that does not negate the Biblical imperative to do so for several reasons, all of which result in the believer being blessed, and many MANY others being blessed exponentially.

Tithing is a farce at best. Tithing is one, ONE, of many of a litany of laws given in the OT...don't tell me tithing anything unless you are going to obey all the rest of them...

[MissMelsWell]

1. If you stopped preaching Jesus in the churches...which btw, many already have...you will still have a church. But if you stop collecting money...the church will fold like cards in a wind.

2. God doesn't need the money of man...the Bible says the streets of God's heaven are paved in pure gold...our money is just so much asphalt to God.

3. If preachers didn't receive a paycheck...there wouldn't be any preachers.

4. Are you seeing a pattern here? The churches, no matter what denomination, are completely tethered to the dollar. Therefore, they have left their first love (Jesus) and cling to what they believe is necessary to spread the Gospel (money).

5. Money isn't necessary to spread the Gospel. No, it isn't. All that is necessary is that you open your mouth and tell whomever...Jesus died and was resurrected and you are forgiven. They will either except it or not. It isn't your call.

Watch me address each numbered point, with corrosponding numbers!

1. My church doesn't preach anything, and does not collect money. Still standing 300 years after it's inception.

2. Agreed.

3. Agreed. My church has no preachers, therefore we pay no preachers.

4. My church, with a denomination has no interest in money and is in no way tethered to it.

5. Correct.

So in closing, not all churches are tied to the allmighty dollar. Your chuch might be, mine isn't.

[texasgirlheather]

Why should it even matter.

Why does anything matter? Why do we gather here to talk with each other? Why does any of us ask any others of us, any questions at all? Why be curious? Why wonder about things that are brought up? In fact, I think humans should just drop their questioning natures altogether. Why should any of us wonder about each other? Why should it even matter.

[+Sherapy]

Tithing is a farce at best. Tithing is one, ONE, of many of a litany of laws given in the OT...don't tell me tithing anything unless you are going to obey all the rest of them...

tithing pays the bills

[+joc]

Watch me address each numbered point, with corrosponding numbers!

1. My church doesn't preach anything, and does not collect money. Still standing 300 years after it's inception.

2. Agreed.

3. Agreed. My church has no preachers, therefore we pay no preachers.

4. My church, with a denomination has no interest in money and is in no way tethered to it.

5. Correct.

So in closing, not all churches are tied to the allmighty dollar. Your chuch might be, mine isn't.

What church do you belong to?

[Radian]

I go to church because my wife wants me to. She is also a christian and wants our daughter to grow up in a church. I go out of respect for her. I could say no...but why should I? I respect her and I enjoy some parts of church.

Many people go too because they want to surround themselves with the body of Christ- With people of the Lord. A support system is found in a genuine good church, around good people. I wouldn't expect the church to function without money, it, like everything else needs funds to survive. There are programs, or activities thru the church that need those funds..the church accumilates its own expenses as does a household. That is how I see it and it's not a bad thing. If you have it in your mind when you give tidings that the preacher is a crook or a fake and wanting it for himself I would be bothered by that too. Maybe you shouldn't dwell on that aspect so much, it might help things, im just making a suggestion.

[+joc]

Many people go too because they want to surround themselves with the body of Christ- With people of the Lord. A support system is found in a genuine good church, around good people. I wouldn't expect the church to function without money, it, like everything else needs funds to survive. There are programs, or activities thru the church that need those funds..the church accumilates its own expenses as does a household. That is how I see it and it's not a bad thing. If you have it in your mind when you give tidings that the preacher is a crook or a fake and wanting it for himself I would be bothered by that too. Maybe you shouldn't dwell on that aspect so much, it might help things, im just making a suggestion.

It is more than that Sunni...and I will say that not all churches proceed about money with the vigor of the First Baptist community...but they all do...and for an 'institution' with electric lights and Air Conditioning they do need money...but a 5 million dollar budget? Come on! They grow the church in the name of Christ...and yet they run the Church like the huge multi-billion dollar corporation that they are. It doesn't matter though, small or large...except apparently for MissWells church...money is where the altar is.

Edited May 31, 2007 by joc

[Radian]

Why does anything matter? Why do we gather here to talk with each other? Why does any of us ask any others of us, any questions at all? Why be curious? Why wonder about things that are brought up? In fact, I think humans should just drop their questioning natures altogether. Why should any of us wonder about each other? Why should it even matter.

Why when a certain person is not happy with their church anyone else's business? Why else? It shouldn't matter.

[+Sherapy]

It is more than that Sunni...and I will say that not all churches proceed about money with the vigor of the First Baptist community...but they all do...and for an 'institution' with electric lights and Air Conditioning they do need money...but a 5 million dollar budget? Come on! They grow the church in the name of Christ...and yet they run the Church like the huge multi-billion dollar corporation that they are.

Gosh the mormons are rich as are the catholics (the vatican) gosh look at the benny hinns and oral roberts and jimmy swaggarts .. we are not talking pocket change here.... who was the one preacher that was on Tv saying god needed 1 million dollars by the weekend years back??? from those little old ladies and guys with their retirement checks, social security... i do know that on tithing you can make payments and you can let it go for a few years but they will eventually collect......how about hhe collecting for the e hungry kids whne we all know its darn near impossible to get food into these countrys and ever notice the nice stylish haircuts on these kids??? i am sure there is a legit church and its fair to keep it going but as you say 5 million dollars hmmm...

[Radian]

Gosh the mormons are rich as are the catholics (the vatican) gosh look at the benny hinns and oral roberts and jimmy swaggarts .. we are not talking pocket change here.... who was the one preacher that was on Tv saying god needed 1 million dollars by the weekend years back??? from those little old ladies and guys with their retirement checks, social security... i do know that on tithing you can make payments and you can let it go for a few years but they will eventually collect......how about hhe collecting for the e hungry kids whne we all know its darn near impossible to get food into these countrys and ever notice the nice stylish haircuts on these kids??? i am sure there is a legit church and its fair to keep it going but as you say 5 million dollars hmmm...

It's frustrating b/c it's things like this that are viewed by millions of people on a daily basis; this is WHAT is representing Christianity to these very millions... Its corrupt-- its obvious, it's wrong, and those with good intentions who do represent are not seen enough. Not near enough.

Edited May 31, 2007 by Sunni

[+Sherapy]

Why when a certain person is not happy with their church anyone else's business? Why else? It shouldn't matter.

well it certainly doesn't affect his exemplary christain example ...I must say its a honor knowing Joc..He has shown me more by his example what a christain is all about.......i enjoy his posts....

[+Sherapy]

It's frustrating b/c it's things like this that are viewed by millions of people on a daily basis; this is WHAT is representing Christianity to these very millions... It's is corrupt, it's wrong, and those with good intentions who do represent are not seen enough.

You bring in a great point Sunni. in all fairness i imagine there is a good church here and there.... some of the homeless in my area are very disheartened at the quality of the food drives they have for them many say the food is just garbage and unhealthy and can't figure why with all the money....

Edited May 31, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[texasgirlheather]

Why when a certain person is not happy with their church anyone else's business? Why else? It shouldn't matter.

Well, as has been noted by Sheri many times, when you post something on UM, it's going to be commented on and questioned. So, if we want to ask "why" something, I would like to ask, sunni, Why should anyone post something on UM if they don't want to talk about it? He could have not posted it, right? He could have posted it with a comment that explains it, knowing that people would be curious and ask about it. joc could have given a brief explanation as to why he goes to a church that he doesn't like, it could have kept people from asking an obvious question out of curiosity ON THIS INTERNATIONAL SPIRITUALITY VS. SKEPTICS DISCUSSION FORUM. Why on earth would someone post something that is no one's business? I understand that joc made the statement and sunni asked why anyone should question it. So, sunni, why should anyone not question it? Don't you ask questions when you are curious about something? Or are only certain people not supposed to ask questions?

I think it's hysterically funny that most people here jump on the chance to say... "Well, you know, God could have done x or y differently.. and it just defies logic and disproves His existence because I have noted that in the vast realm of possibilities, x and/or y could have been gone about in a different manner, you know one that I approve of and makes sense to me, the human. Therefore, I just scientifically disproved God's existence." LOL people we can't even understand why some people do the things they do, given the myriad of possible things to do. We don't keep simple logic from one thread to the next. And then we insist that we have no right to question other humans who post on a discussion forum... and we think we are capable enough to follow God's plan, logic and reasoning? Psssshhhhhtttt. Whatever.

Yeah, humans are INFINITELY wiser than God is. Anyone who notes that there is more than one way to go about achieving something surely proves that God is wrong for doing it the way He did it. All hail the human intellect in all its glory! It can outwit God (OK not really) It can create life out of nothing (right?) It can answer the unanswerable questions (well it likes to think it can). It can solve the mysteries of human behavior (oh wait that's mostly unproved theories).... well it at least can use its vast scientific knowledge to explain it's own origin (dangit, I forgot about the pig's teeth and one or two bones that most early man examples actually consist of)! Ok maybe we're not doing so well... let's see... It can cure diseases that kill us!!! The intellect holds the keys of life and death and aging, telemeres be damned . We are in complete control of AIDS and cancer because we're smart, and that is all you need to be, to be advanced and enlightened!!! We know how to pronounce big words and memorize facts and look through microscopes at all the things that kill us, and we know how to deny that there is anything wrong with human nature and make excuses/talk in circles/psycho-analyze ourselves with textbook disorders that mean we don't do anything wrong on purpose, and also mean everything we can dream of to do is valid in some way!!! We're so intellectual, we can come up with laws that say not to rape kids and no one argues with it or disobeys it or tries to argue their way out of their punishment in court with some ridiculous justification, because we're so fabulously moral and intelligent. Ain't it grand to be human... I'm soooo glad we don't need God for anything

yeah, I ranted, what are you going to do about it?