Religion and shame

[hyperactive]

that is a wonderfl and inspiring attitude, shadow.

[Shadow_Hill]

wow, what an epiphany... how very courageous too to challenge your beleifs , this is difficult for alot of folks....

I think she's felt uncomfortable about challenging her own beliefs, but I think she felt she was past being able not to... she'd have found it harder to go on without looking into what she was feeling.

son i hope you arent' gonna say drinking at thirteen and wanting to hurt others is run of the mill teenage behavior and natural .... i have read this alot that prior to being christian one was expressing such self destructive behaviors....and religion helped them..In this case i can see and have said it can be of great use.....to sort of get one out of a self destructive mode..this was sort of Pa's story too and it got him focused ....

Phil was like that too... gambling, drinking, stealing... he came from a very rough family too. He changed considerably after he became a Christian.

At the company where hubbie works the accountant is a born again Christian. He was an alcoholic before he converted.

[+Sherapy]

I told someone recently that I live a perfect life, and they thought I was potty. But for me, the way I live is more than I could have hoped for. Even when I became ill I considered it a learning experience... everything is what you make of it isn't it? I'm so happy... even when hubbie lost his job a while back I was happy, and so was he, because he got to move on to something new. Every day is wonderful.

S. that is wonderful and i can relate and you know what my hubby to has had job loss and it always leads to something better and thats how we look at it...

we have had situations that could of been devastating to some but to us they are gifts...S. I really only know folks that see life this way, Gosh what is horrible about life and mistakes are to learn from as you i am so grateful to my grandparents for passing on this attitude i call it hte attitude of gratitude( heard that some where) to me as it has been the most important tool in weathering anything..... ,this may seem shallow but everyday i get to be in love with the most incredible man who is younger than me yahoo and cute as can and jsut a beautiful person( hubby) ... and adore 3 awesome children and enjoy the beauty of the most beautiful spot in the world to live, work for a incredible freind and have so many freinds to love , we are fed and i more then i could ever need....... i can't see anything to be negative about...... ....i gotta tell you i love hearing about happy people..i find it inspiring... being A NB is every bit as joyous and i would want folks to know that....

[Radian]

MissMells, do you mid answering this one, as Son suggested?

Refering only to shame/guilt as a result of committing sin (as in deliberate disobedience to the known will of god)... Without feeling this shame/guilt could I become a Christian?

Good question.. I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to answer it anyhoo...(and seeing sin as a victimizer- stealing, cheating, murder, etc,.)

IMO, I don't see how it could be. As a Christian (as in sincerely trying to walk in representation of Christ), I don't find it possible NOT to feel shame or guilt or some extent of remorse, when delibrately being disobedient to God's word/ expectations.

To walk in this representation of Christ there are responsibilities being accepted here. First rule is imperative- it is love unconditionally, and all to love others as you do yourself... Is it feasible to love others to this capacity, yet feel absolutely no remorse when hurting others when committing selfish painful acts upon them-or sins..? How? If our negative actions toward others deserve no negative consequences (feeling guilt, or shame, remorse) but is rationalized instead as

valid or excused, we would eventually lose the whole idea of sin, and begin to validate that as well..This is how I see it...

So, we validate the pain we cause by our sins, yet, we still proclaim to love others as we do ourselves..This it seems would be contradictory to what love is, what Christ was trying to teach.. I would think.. again IMO.

[+Sherapy]

I think she's felt uncomfortable about challenging her own beliefs, but I think she felt she was past being able not to... she'd have found it harder to go on without looking into what she was feeling.

Phil was like that too... gambling, drinking, stealing... he came from a very rough family too. He changed considerably after he became a Christian.

At the company where hubbie works the accountant is a born again Christian. He was an alcoholic before he converted.

If i am not mistaken i think it dose draw in alot of drug abusers, I have heard this so thisis jsut cionjecture .....Now my sister who was an herion addict did this to escape from extreme abuse physical and relgious, I wonder why at 13 one is drinking and hurtin g others if they aren't in a rough familial situation... wath woudl you thoughts be understading its jsut conjecture at this level LOL.....have you heard this too???

[Radian]

S. that is wonderful and i can relate and you know what my hubby to has had job loss and it always leads to something better and thats how we look at it...

we have had situations that could of been devastating to some but to us they are gifts...S. I really only know folks that see life this way, Gosh what is horrible about life and mistakes are to learn from as you i am so grateful to my grandparents for passing on this attitude i call it hte attitude of gratitude( heard that some where) to me as it has been the most important tool in weathering anything..... ,this may seem shallow but everyday i get to be in love with the most incredible man who is younger than me yahoo and cute as can and jsut a beautiful person( hubby) ... and adore 3 awesome children and enjoy the beauty of the most beautiful spot in the world to live, work for a incredible freind and have so many freinds to love , we are fed and i more then i could ever need....... i can't see anything to be negative about...... ....i gotta tell you i love hearing about happy people..i find it inspiring... being A NB is every bit as joyous and i would want folks to know that....

Great post, Sheri.

You know not enough people "stop to smell the roses" as my granny would say. Life is too darn short to complain about what doesn't go right. Things mess up all the time, things are not easy all the time, it's not supposed to be... When I had some sudden loses in my immediate family in a very short time frame I realized these things suddenly.. did it take such measures for me to appreciate all those around me, I don't really know.. but I think it took those measures to make me realize just how special those around me really were & absorb every second I had with them, to know they are the most precious things in my life.. how they bless me with their spirit...

We can always look hard enough we will see something we don't like, what's the point.. other than feeling miserable about it..

If there is something to be fixed, fix it.. carry on.. ya' know.

[+Sherapy]

Great post, Sheri.

You know not enough people "stop to smell the roses" as my granny would say. Life is too darn short to complain about what doesn't go right. Things mess up all the time, things are not easy all the time, it's not supposed to be... When I had some sudden loses in my immediate family in a very short time frame I realized these things suddenly.. did it take such measures for me to appreciate all those around me, I don't really know.. but I think it took those measures to make me realize just how special those around me really were & absorb every second I had with them, to know they are the most precious things in my life.. how they bless me with their spirit...

We can always look hard enough we will see something we don't like, what's the point.. other than feeling miserable about it..

If there is something to be fixed, fix it.. carry on.. ya' know.

Beautiful me lady...i love these inspiring posts ... i agree...

[MissMelsWell]

Sheri, you hang on ever word every psychologist and psychiatrist ever told you. It's that duplicity word again.

And on that note, there's really nothing more to be said in this thread.

I've said that a couple of times now, but I'm done now. This is gross.

So go ahead Sheri, you and all your pals can pat each other on the back and play kissy kissy huggy huggy with each other, thanks, I'll bow out of that revolting little fakey plastic love-in.

[eqgumby]

Yowsa.

You know where I stand. I think it gets a little too gross too.

Everyone has their moments of joy, and others get pretty p***ed at times. I do both. I think that's normal.

Just the other day I was on my boat, eating home-made chickin sandwiches and chugging a green tea, anchored on a sandbar looking at all the crazies partying on Crab-island, and I thought, "Damn, I could do this ALL the time! Blue water, white sand, bikinis all over. Who could ask for more." An hour later some ass-hat in a boat too big for him nearly backed into me with his TRIPLE outboards! Two more feet and me and the boat would have been diced. Him and his drunk buddies told me to calm the %^^$#* down when I yelled "Whoa! Watch out!" I politely offered to kick all their asses, which didn't seem to make an impression til I got out of the water and onto my boat and started towards them. They left. And I actually thought "Happy as a clam one minute, ready to stomp heads the next. That sucks." But ya know what, thats human nature. I just roasted a chicken, so guess where I'll be this weekend? Getting sun-burnt again! Carry on, and bypass as much of the bad as you can, and dwell on the good.

And the reality of all this is: Whether some Deity helps you do that or not, we should all strive for it.

[Shadow_Hill]

If i am not mistaken i think it dose draw in alot of drug abusers, I have heard this so thisis jsut cionjecture .....Now my sister who was an herion addict did this to escape from extreme abuse physical and relgious, I wonder why at 13 one is drinking and hurtin g others if they aren't in a rough familial situation... wath woudl you thoughts be understading its jsut conjecture at this level LOL.....have you heard this too???

I think a lot of people who have pretty rotten lives find comfort in religious faith. Certainly most of the members of Phil's church were from pretty horrible backgrounds - a couple had had drug problems, but mostly they'd been violent and destructive. I think if something heals and transforms a person from one who would get nothing out of life to someone who will function in society and be happy then they are better off with it than without it.

I remember reading "Run Baby Run" when I was at school, by Nicky Cruz... now there was a man who turned his life around. I went to see him speak when he visited the UK - he spoke at the Town Hall in Birmingham... gosh, that's going back. I haven't thought about that in years. I'm going to look him up now and see what happened to him.

[+Sherapy]

Sheri, you hang on ever word every psychologist and psychiatrist ever told you. It's that duplicity word again.

And on that note, there's really nothing more to be said in this thread.

I've said that a couple of times now, but I'm done now. This is gross.

So go ahead Sheri, you and all your pals can pat each other on the back and play kissy kissy huggy huggy with each other, thanks, I'll bow out of that revolting little fakey plastic love-in.

MW, all the best to you .....((HUGS)) )being happy isn't for everyone...

Edited June 2, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[+joc]

QUOTE(joc @ May 31 2007, 10:24 PM) *

Someone once said, If we choose not to choose we have still made a choice. We choose to allow or disallow whatever thought processes we engage in. We have that ability as humans. That doesn't mean that it is an easy thing to do...it isn't ...in fact, controlling our thought processes is one of the hardest things to do. It is much easier to allow negative thoughts and emotions than to disallow them. It takes zero effort to think negatively...it takes a great deal of effort to maintain a positive thought train...especially when those you surround yourself choose to think negatively. Guilt and Shame are nothing more than negative thought processes. This is what I believe and what I practice in my own life.

What role does your relationship with God play in this process, joc?

I have a very positive relationship with God. What are you asking?

[+Sherapy]

I think a lot of people who have pretty rotten lives find comfort in religious faith. Certainly most of the members of Phil's church were from pretty horrible backgrounds - a couple had had drug problems, but mostly they'd been violent and destructive. I think if something heals and transforms a person from one who would get nothing out of life to someone who will function in society and be happy then they are better off with it than without it.

I remember reading "Run Baby Run" when I was at school, by Nicky Cruz... now there was a man who turned his life around. I went to see him speak when he visited the UK - he spoke at the Town Hall in Birmingham... gosh, that's going back. I haven't thought about that in years. I'm going to look him up now and see what happened to him.

I haven't read this book... i will look into it... i am wondering too if their isn't a genetic predisposittion to being religious also ..i was actually reading something about that ..note to self ask Doc....*smiles*

[IamsSon]

I have a very positive relationship with God. What are you asking?

I didn't mean to ask whether it was positive or not. I meant: Does God play a role in how you control your thoughts and make them positive.

[texasgirlheather]

MW, all the best to you .....((HUGS)) )being happy isn't for everyone...

Neither is... making sense *smiles*

[+joc]

I didn't mean to ask whether it was positive or not. I meant: Does God play a role in how you control your thoughts and make them positive.

Well, let me tell you. God doesn't do my thinking for me. Does God do your thinking for you? I do my thinking for myself. How else can it possibly be?

Unless you are asking, Does God help me with my positive thought process? The answer to that is yes. I believe Faith is not a Guilt/Shame Construct (I'm really beginning to like that word). I believe Faith is meant to uplift the soul and spirit. My Faith is uplifting. God doesn't want us to be negative. Jesus showed the way with his 'mustard seed' parable.

[IamsSon]

Well, let me tell you. God doesn't do my thinking for me. Does God do your thinking for you? I do my thinking for myself. How else can it possibly be?

Geez, can you stop looking at my post like I'm trying to attack you or something? I'm asking what I thought was a fairly harmless question.

Unless you are asking, Does God help me with my positive thought process? The answer to that is yes. I believe Faith is not a Guilt/Shame Construct (I'm really beginning to like that word). I believe Faith is meant to uplift the soul and spirit. My Faith is uplifting. God doesn't want us to be negative. Jesus showed the way with his 'mustard seed' parable.

Thanks for the reply... hope it wasn't too hard.

[+joc]

Sheri, you hang on ever word every psychologist and psychiatrist ever told you. It's that duplicity word again.

And on that note, there's really nothing more to be said in this thread.

I've said that a couple of times now, but I'm done now. This is gross.

So go ahead Sheri, you and all your pals can pat each other on the back and play kissy kissy huggy huggy with each other, thanks, I'll bow out of that revolting little fakey plastic love-in.

Oh you might not post...but you will be reading the thread anonymously. Sounds like the emotion of jealousy has risen it's ugly head. Perhaps you should go back a few pages and read my post on how the thought processes work. The end result of 'thought process' is it's physical equivalent. What is the end result of allowing the thought process of jealousy to work in your mind? What is the end result of allowing Guilt or Shame to work in your mind?

[+joc]

Geez, can you stop looking at my post like I'm trying to attack you or something? I'm asking what I thought was a fairly harmless question.

Thanks for the reply... hope it wasn't too hard.

It isn't always 'easy' to perceive one's questions in the true meaning of how they are being asked. My apologies. If you want to look at it in Biblical terms...We can analogize Satan as The Negative and God as The Positive. In God there is no darkness. I am the Light of the world. God said, Let there be Light. Don't hide your Light under a basket. Yes...my Faith is positive. I believe God is pure Positive Light....in which there is no darkness. The Church is not God. The Church is a Manmade Construct. God doesn't teach Guilt or Shame...how could he and how would he? In the Light there is no Darkness. But in the Religious Construct of Man...negative abounds. Why? Because in man there is darkness. Only when we allow the Light to fully illuminate our soul do we shed the spell of the Darkness. One can Illuminate their soul only one way...with Light. And Light is. It isn't a Manmade Construct...it just IS. One only needs find the Light. You believe the only Light is found in Jesus. I believe Light is found in Jesus, but that Light is found everywhere one looks for it. Seek and ye shall find. Sheri knows the Light. Hyper knows the Light. I know the Light. You know the Light. We have all experienced the Light. But the Darkness...it is always there lurking in the shadows. It is a fulltime job to stay in The Light. One can not be lax about their thought process or one will stumble in the darkness. We do not stumble when we recognize the Light...only when we don't. The real purpose of this thread is to shine Light on the Darkness that is Guilt and Shame.

Edited June 2, 2007 by joc

[MUM24/7]

It isn't always 'easy' to perceive one's questions in the true meaning of how they are being asked. My apologies. If you want to look at it in Biblical terms...We can analogize Satan as The Negative and God as The Positive. In God there is no darkness. I am the Light of the world. God said, Let there be Light. Don't hide your Light under a basket. Yes...my Faith is positive. I believe God is pure Positive Light....in which there is no darkness. The Church is not God. The Church is a Manmade Construct. God doesn't teach Guilt or Shame...how could he and how would he? In the Light there is no Darkness. But in the Religious Construct of Man...negative abounds. Why? Because in man there is darkness. Only when we allow the Light to fully illuminate our soul do we shed the spell of the Darkness. One can Illuminate their soul only one way...with Light. And Light is. It isn't a Manmade Construct...it just IS. One only needs find the Light. You believe the only Light is found in Jesus. I believe Light is found in Jesus, but that Light is found everywhere one looks for it. Seek and ye shall find. Sheri knows the Light. Hyper knows the Light. I know the Light. You know the Light. We have all experienced the Light. But the Darkness...it is always there lurking in the shadows. It is a fulltime job to stay in The Light. One can not be lax about their thought process or one will stumble in the darkness. We do not stumble when we recognize the Light...only when we don't. The real purpose of this thread is to shine Light on the Darkness that is Guilt and Shame.

That's a lovely post joc.....

[Shadow_Hill]

That's a lovely post joc.....

I agree... a lovely post.

[+Sherapy]

It isn't always 'easy' to perceive one's questions in the true meaning of how they are being asked. My apologies. If you want to look at it in Biblical terms...We can analogize Satan as The Negative and God as The Positive. In God there is no darkness. I am the Light of the world. God said, Let there be Light. Don't hide your Light under a basket. Yes...my Faith is positive. I believe God is pure Positive Light....in which there is no darkness. The Church is not God. The Church is a Manmade Construct. God doesn't teach Guilt or Shame...how could he and how would he? In the Light there is no Darkness. But in the Religious Construct of Man...negative abounds. Why? Because in man there is darkness. Only when we allow the Light to fully illuminate our soul do we shed the spell of the Darkness. One can Illuminate their soul only one way...with Light. And Light is. It isn't a Manmade Construct...it just IS. One only needs find the Light. You believe the only Light is found in Jesus. I believe Light is found in Jesus, but that Light is found everywhere one looks for it. Seek and ye shall find. Sheri knows the Light. Hyper knows the Light. I know the Light. You know the Light. We have all experienced the Light. But the Darkness...it is always there lurking in the shadows. It is a fulltime job to stay in The Light. One can not be lax about their thought process or one will stumble in the darkness. We do not stumble when we recognize the Light...only when we don't. The real purpose of this thread is to shine Light on the Darkness that is Guilt and Shame.

thankyou Joc, this is very beautiful....

[Beckys_Mom]

When in Rome...thanks joc lovely post lol

[+Sherapy]

what a befitting way of laying the thread to rest..thanks to all the contributers it has been wonderful the insights......

Edited June 3, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[texasgirlheather]

You mean someone hasn't taken this thread out back and shot it yet?