Religion and shame

[hyperactive]

Is it in any way right to have sex with a newborn boy or girl?

find somebody that does such a thing and he/she will tell you yes.

[Skim Milky]

find somebody that does such a thing and he/she will tell you yes.

this is so wrong, because anytime that you not only force your will on the unwilling, but force your will on someone who is not only unable to defend oneself, but unable to comprehend the true gravity of ones situation, is wrong.

[Shadow_Hill]

I'm just catching up here, and there's too much to read ... if we all agree that raping a child isn't beneficial to the child or society, why does it matter which words we use to describe the action we're disapproving of?

[MissMelsWell]

find somebody that does such a thing and he/she will tell you yes.

Not always. Often they know they're sick and know they're wrong and have no impulse control.

Even after reading all these posts that were posted between Saturday and now, I still maintain that the OP opinion that all guilt and shame is a by-product of only religion is preposterous.

[IamsSon]

find somebody that does such a thing and he/she will tell you yes.

Is this the viewpoint supported by the psych (ologist/iatrist) community?

If it is, how then does this view affect the way people with pedophiliac tendencies get treated?

If not, then how does this personal view affect the way you treat/would treat a patient with pedophiliac tendencies?

[hyperactive]

Not always. Often they know they're sick and know they're wrong and have no impulse control.

this will be true if they are using a cultural more as a reference in evaluating their behaviors and accepting the differing more as "right".

[eqgumby]

So, if one doesn't agree with your perceptions of personal moral code...then we are all of a like-minded cult that is destined to become pedophilic, serial killers?

....as half the board rolls their collective eyes...

Yes.

(How could you miss the tongue in cheek there? Are you spoiling for a fight)?

The sarcasm is in response to the foofy, BS, subterfuge spouted all over this thread. It's becoming unreadable.

Personal moral codes, no such thing as right and wrong, all cloaked in new age self help crap. No one wants to speak the truth, and no one wants to hold an opinion, just spout the same old "we can all be happy in our own goodness, guilt free as humanity moves into the light of self rightousness..." What bunk. Feel-good self serving tripe.

Rape of a child (infant) is wrong and should be punishable by death. Period. It's up to a society to decide what age is "consensual" and enforce those decisions. So stop beating around the bush and making excuses or implausible what-ifs. Sure, it was OK for ancient Greeks to have man-boy love affairs, but even they had RULES that were enforced because it was socially acceptable and EXPECTED. Lets not get bogged down in what was OK two thousand years ago. Otherwise we can go ahead and vilify Greeks like so many vilify Christians, Muslims, etc etc.

[+Sherapy]

ps - you say you don't deal with pedophiles or serial killers yet you say there is no good or bad. how is this 'enlightenment ' supposed to happen for humanity unless you and like minded people deal with them? until you or this evolution figures it out what are we supposed to do in the mean time ?

there are absolutes in some things - like what goes on between 2 concenting adults is thier business as long as it hurts no one.

and in some things grey is a better suited color.

LR,thankyou very much my 'altrernative lifestyle is working out quite well, plenty of growth, it doesn't undermine the status quo it undergrids it..I have been living this life to great benefit..i can see it may be confusing for you especially if you think in absolutes....

[+Sherapy]

Your posts read like exerps from new-age tripe pumped out in the early 80's by those self-educated self help nuts. THAT is why when you post absolutes like this, half the board rolls it's collective eyes and wonders what the hell you're trying to say.

Eggy certainly you are entitled to your opinion but thats all it is....this is anything but absolute

[+Sherapy]

Yes.

(How could you miss the tongue in cheek there? Are you spoiling for a fight)?

The sarcasm is in response to the foofy, BS, subterfuge spouted all over this thread. It's becoming unreadable.

Personal moral codes, no such thing as right and wrong, all cloaked in new age self help crap. No one wants to speak the truth, and no one wants to hold an opinion, just spout the same old "we can all be happy in our own goodness, guilt free as humanity moves into the light of self rightousness..." What bunk. Feel-good self serving tripe.

Rape of a child (infant) is wrong and should be punishable by death. Period. It's up to a society to decide what age is "consensual" and enforce those decisions. So stop beating around the bush and making excuses or implausible what-ifs. Sure, it was OK for ancient Greeks to have man-boy love affairs, but even they had RULES that were enforced because it was socially acceptable and EXPECTED. Lets not get bogged down in what was OK two thousand years ago. Otherwise we can go ahead and vilify Greeks like so many vilify Christians, Muslims, etc etc.

We do hold opinions very strong ones as a matter of fact but the difference is we don't impose them and that is what right and wrong does..certainly have your standards of behavior but remember no one is doing anything inappropriate given their models/conditioning..

that is what we have been saying ..all your talk of morals yet the one thing that is of no benefit to anyone is killing each other and religion has done nothing to deal with this let alone understand it. actually it models it as a way to regulate behavior ....Good grief religion has contributed more to 'pedophilia' look at the catholic church for a peer into this.....

[MissMelsWell]

this will be true if they are using a cultural more as a reference in evaluating their behaviors and accepting the differing more as "right".

Ok Hyper, I get it, however, of what use is this to us today? What's the practical application of your whole theory that there is no right an no wrong. I get what you're saying, but it's just simply useless to me. What's the point? Is there one?

[MissMelsWell]

We do hold opinions very strong ones as a matter of fact but the difference is we don't impose them and that is what right and wrong does..certainly have your standards of behavior but remember no one is doing anything inappropriate given their models/conditioning..

that is what we have been saying ..all your talk of morals yet the one thing that is of no benefit to anyone is killing each other and religion has done nothing to deal with this let alone understand it. actually it models it as a way to regulate behavior ....Good grief religion has contributed more to 'pedophilia' look at the catholic church for a peer into this.....

Good grief Sheri, you DID NOT just say that. That's absolutely rediculous. Sorry chicky.... pedofiles come in all shapes, sizes, looks, and walks of life. Funny, I could tell you now that the only three peodofiles I've ever known led "alternative" lifestyles. One is dead (shot through the heart by one of his many victims), one is in prison, the third has mysteriously ended up with a raging case of Agoraphobia and is dying a lonely old man inside his home.

I happen to be of the opinion that the last two, the one in prison and the one who can't seem to get out of his house, are suffering TREMENDOUS guilt and shame... the one in prison actually pled guilty, against his attorney's advice, when taken in for arraignment because he knew he was wrong. If this is what guilt and shame get us, I'm all for it.

[IamsSon]

We do hold opinions very strong ones as a matter of fact but the difference is we don't impose them and that is what right and wrong does..certainly have your standards of behavior but remember no one is doing anything inappropriate given their models/conditioning..

that is what we have been saying ..all your talk of morals yet the one thing that is of no benefit to anyone is killing each other and religion has done nothing to deal with this let alone understand it. actually it models it as a way to regulate behavior ....Good grief religion has contributed more to 'pedophilia' look at the catholic church for a peer into this.....

So, I don't want to be accused of misunderstanding so I am asking a question, not making a statement:

Are you saying that if the model/conditioning of a particular person tells them that it's perfectly proper to engage in sexual relations with a newborn, then it IS completely proper to do so and they should not only be allowed to do so, but maybe even encouraged to so and in that way be the complete person they were intended to be?

*crosses fingers hoping for a straight answer*

[eqgumby]

Eggy certainly you are entitled to your opinion but thats all it is....this is anything but absolute

This is what I was referring to:

Universality, or any claim to Universality, is completely and utterly FALSE.

Morality is unique and indivuated to each and every mind.

Organized religions use 'shame' as a tool to perpetuate Markedness and Othering.

The pervasiveness of Honor/Shame societies has become archaic and irrelevant.

This is new age tripe that has no meaning. And it does indeed deal in absolutes. As usual, you add nothing, not even a countering point or opinion.

[eqgumby]

We do hold opinions very strong ones as a matter of fact but the difference is we don't impose them and that is what right and wrong does..certainly have your standards of behavior but remember no one is doing anything inappropriate given their models/conditioning..

that is what we have been saying ..all your talk of morals yet the one thing that is of no benefit to anyone is killing each other and religion has done nothing to deal with this let alone understand it. actually it models it as a way to regulate behavior ....Good grief religion has contributed more to 'pedophilia' look at the catholic church for a peer into this.....

Again, as usual, you want to assign blame to religion. Sure, Catholicism is responsible for pedophilia

Killing someone that would rape an infant is of great benefit to the NEXT child he/she would have raped.

If you don't have anything useful or constructive to say or anything that at least makes sense, don't bother posting. Who the hell is "we"? How are you NOT imposing your sense of right and wrong on anyone? What the hell does "modeling/conditioning" have to do with raping a child? Are you implying that based on someones modeling/conditioning that behavior is appropriate? If I raise a puppy to be a bloodthirsty killer, what do you do with it when it's fully grown and attacks anyone it sees with the intent to kill? It's not doing anything inappropriate given it's models/conditioning, right?

You don't have any answers. You rely on others to provide them for you, then complain about them. You rely on others to protect you, then vilify them. You have a pie-in-the-sky, rose colored glasses view of the world, which includes vilifying the "establishment". You're willing to say things like it's human nature to save a life and do good things for each other, and in the same breath condemn huge slices of that same humanity.

[Michelle]

I blame it on Emily Post and Miss Manners...where I got my standards of how to interact, be polite, exist harmoniously with the community, guide me as to what is acceptable and what's not.

[+Sherapy]

So, I don't want to be accused of misunderstanding so I am asking a question, not making a statement:

Are you saying that if the model/conditioning of a particular person tells them that it's perfectly proper to engage in sexual relations with a newborn, then it IS completely proper to do so and they should not only be allowed to do so, but maybe even encouraged to so and in that way be the complete person they were intended to be?

*crosses fingers hoping for a straight answer*

It would be to them...... take you son your Dad raised you a certain way and you are raising your son the same way, to you its appropriate given your models and conditioning and we can drum up alot of posts to prove this....case closed...I hope this helps.....

MW have you seen the documentary "deliver us from evil' its in line with what i stated. and is profound its in understanding of how it happens no shock the priest who was a pedophile was also violated as a kid., not to mention sunni has been so gracious to shed some understanding on this............ Yes i did say its a huge issue in the catholic church.......

Eggy the more fear one has as an individual , the more one will identify with 'his' collectivel more vehmenentally he will defend it...they cannot tolerate minor differences so they seek to insult and attack.....

I get that many can only get along with those that are the same side of the coin and difference is seen as repulsive...a culture is a treasure but identifing with the culture can be a prison

Edited May 29, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[truethat]

I didn't say I was indifferent to the suffering of children.

I said that while I will say what is "right or wrong" for me, I will not impose this upon another. Impose the key word.

That is the difference between you and I - you feel justified in imposing your position on others, (yet will not say why).

Yes you would impose it. You wouldn't see a man laying down an eight year old boy to sodomize him and just walk out of the room and say "Not my place to impose my idea that this is wrong on another"

You're joking right? Of course you would impose your morality.

Please this whole thread can be summed up by this example. You are pretending to have a "not imposing attitude" but OF COURSE you would impose this.

Unreal what people are willing to say just to be right for the sake of argument. This is why these kind of debates are pointless.

[+Sherapy]

Yes you would impose it. You wouldn't see a man laying down an eight year old boy to sodomize him and just walk out of the room and say "Not my place to impose my idea that this is wrong on another"

You're joking right? Of course you would impose your morality.

Please this whole thread can be summed up by this example. You are pretending to have a "not imposing attitude" but OF COURSE you would impose this.

Unreal what people are willing to say just to be right for the sake of argument. This is why these kind of debates are pointless.

True, no not all would impose their morality only those who are deeply invested in being right..........

[eqgumby]

It would be to them...... take you son your Dad raised you a certain way and you are raising your son the same way, to you its appropriate given your models and conditioning and we can drum up alot of posts to prove this....case closed...I hope this helps.....

MW have you seen the documentary "deliver us from evil' its in line with what i stated. and is profound its in understanding of how it happens no shock the priest who was a pedophile was also violated as a kid., not to mention sunni has been so gracious to shed some understanding on this............ Yes i did say its a huge issue in the catholic church.......

Eggy the more fear one has as an individual , the more one will identify with 'his' collectivel more vehmenentally he will defend it...they cannot tolerate minor differences so they seek to insult and attack.....

I get that many can only get along with those that are the same side of the coin and difference is seen as repulsive...a culture is a treasure but identifing with the culture can be a prison

Nice, now you're going to psycho-analyze me? The only fear I have is that stupid people will take over the world, and will excuse every one based on some BS philosophical crap that completely voids individuals of taking responsibility for themselves or their actions.

[Beckys_Mom]

*crosses fingers hoping for a straight answer*

ho ho ho LOL there's more chance of you getting to see the 2nd coming of christ lol

*runs*

only having a laugh guys...

[Michelle]

"they cannot tolerate minor differences so they seek to insult and attack' Sheri?

That is the point of most of the topics in the religious section about Christians....to prove it's the bane of humans and civilizations.

Passive-aggressive as it is...you start it, then sit back and watch the show...taking no responsibility, as usual.

[Beckys_Mom]

Nice, now you're going to psycho-analyze me? The only fear I have is that stupid people will take over the world, and will excuse every one based on some BS philosophical crap that completely voids individuals of taking responsibility for themselves or their actions.

Gotta admit, that was well put

[truethat]

True, no not all would impose their morality only those who are deeply invested in being right..........

So you are saying Sheri that if you were at a party of some sort and there were kids and adults hanging around and you walked into a room where a man was pulling down the pants of an eight year old boy, and the man is standing there with his penis erect, you'd say "Oh whoops, sorry didn't mean to interrupt!" and walk out the door? You wouldn't try to stop the man?

You are not being honest....

The whole idea behind pareting is to keep them safe as they explore...wehn is it ever not important to protect our kids???

About a year ago a neighborhood boy 9 years old was riding a motorcyle up and down the sidewalk Dad felt as long as he had on a helmet it was okay contrary to law and to the saftey of others, one day he is giving kids (no helmets) rides, i saw this and immediately went out and told him its not a good idea at all, explained why he was a polite kid said okay and went ahead anyways once he saw i wasn't around, I then walked down to his dads told him about it , said i am not telling you how to parent but for his saftey and ours can you handle this he too was polite said I told him not to give kids rides, I said well he is...

A few days later this boy was on a low to the ground motocycle, zipped put of our driveway onto the street and was hit by a car coming down the street, my husband saw it and my 8 year old witnessed it, I ran out and this boy was knocked out cold he had two broken shins two broken arms , later we would find out he had broken his hips too, by then i had called the ambulance and i was on the phone with the paramedic as he told me what to do..

by now this boy was awake and screaming for his dad it was so sad all the parents were crying it was heart wrenching finally someone went and got his dad and when his dad saw his boy laying on the ground broken, our hearts went out to him, you see we all saw this coming except dad...It took this boy a year to walk again and now he is okay, many of the kids that day don't ride bikes anymore and many parents just hugged each other...

this is the type of dad who feels a swift kick in the ass is parenting and Steven wouldn't do that he knows dad will knock him upside the head....the spare the rod parenting...

This post has been edited by Supra Sheri: May 14 2007, 03:51 PM

[MissMelsWell]

MW have you seen the documentary "deliver us from evil' its in line with what i stated. and is profound its in understanding of how it happens no shock the priest who was a pedophile was also violated as a kid., not to mention sunni has been so gracious to shed some understanding on this............ Yes i did say its a huge issue in the catholic church.......

Yes, I've seen Deliver Us from Evil. I'm don't think it has much to do with my statement which you were trying to respond to here.

What's your point?