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Sherapy

Religion and shame

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artymoon
Its EASY arty....

Goes like this --> YES I would help

OR

No I wouldnt help

plain and simple

Thats like me asking you hypothedically...

Arty.........your mum is crossing the street...you see a truck coming her way...would you run to help her??

and you saying -- aye well see...if i loved my mom I think I might just do that

NOW what kind of p***y answer is that...its a cut and dry question..would you??????? or wouldnt you????

Of course I can say, yes, I would help her.

But I understand the hypothetical business... people are afraid to commit to a direct answer because they may feel guilt in giving a direct answer.

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Beckys_Mom
he clarified what he meant too on more than one post. .....i also have a 2 year on a daily basis freindship with him and besides him speaking on his own behalf i am telling you too in the event or remote chance this was to ever present itslef in his life you bet he would help a child .....he has no children nor intends too nor is around kids ever.. he lives a very private life....this question is no different then some of the other hypotheticals on here...this is highly unlikely as a pedophile generally isn't broadcasting his actions......what hyper was saying to I beleive is vigilante behavior isn't gonna stop the disease it goes deeper than that ..so it would only be a bandaid not a solution.... he was enlarging the understanding of this situation tackling it from an arena he could be of help at the level of prevention...the level few even address..... I think you may be missing the point Son.....

Sheri...there is no point

Lets be honest here

You hate anyone saying they would hit a child...and I mean anyone..............EVEN if it were a hypothedical question...like --> would you hit your kid for...breaking your tv set?

and someone replies ---> well if it were a good tv set then prolly yea I would

you would sit in DISGUST sheri and think...................WTF?? so if it were an old tv he / she wouldnt hit the kid..is that it??

well thats the same situation that hyper was put in ..only a much horrid scenario

He gave an answer to a hypothedical question..that led a lot of us to think..ohh well if he ACCEPTED the role..then yes..

I sat thinking..what if he didnt accept the role??

MORALS sheri..thats what its all about chick

If he is purely against harming children PEROID..then he wouldnt have gave a beat around the what if bush answer!!

Anyone thats against hurting kids would right away regardless of the sirtuation being hypothedical or NOT..would say YES they would help

Now Sheri...I KNOW for a fact...if he had of said off the bat..YES I would help the poor child

you would be in there all ---(((hugs))) thats great hyper and throw lots of --> :wub:

Not making fun here sheri..NO..im serious..I have followed both your posts for ages now..i know how you both react to posts by now

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Beckys_Mom
Of course I can say, yes, I would help her.

But I understand the hypothetical business... people are afraid to commit to a direct answer because they may feel guilt in giving a direct answer.

What is there to feel guilty about saying you would help an innocent helpless child ??

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Sherapy
So, because it would be a band aid action, I mean heck, it's only one child when there are so many others suffering, why intervene? Is that it? Why intervene to save one child when so many others are suffering? What crock!

Son I think this maybe beyond you I'm gonna go ahead and leave you be...You aren't interested in any pov but yours.. :tu:

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IamsSon
Son I think this maybe beyond you I'm gonna go ahead and leave you be...You aren't interested in any pov but yours.. :tu:

Sheri, I am far from being an idiot, so this is by far not beyond me. It may be beyond you to answer truthfully, and clearly, but it is not beyond me to follow as someone tries to weasel out of a straight answer they give when it is not received well.

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artymoon
What is there to feel guilty about saying you would help an innocent helpless child ??

They'd feel guilty for committing to an unknown hypothetical situation, they'd be ashamed for having to use faith.

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Sherapy
Sheri...there is no point

Lets be honest here

You hate anyone saying they would hit a child...and I mean anyone..............EVEN if it were a hypothedical question...like --> would you hit your kid for...breaking your tv set?

and someone replies ---> well if it were a good tv set then prolly yea I would

you would sit in DISGUST sheri and think...................WTF?? so if it were an old tv he / she wouldnt hit the kid..is that it??

well thats the same situation that hyper was put in ..only a much horrid scenario

He gave an answer to a hypothedical question..that led a lot of us to think..ohh well if he ACCEPTED the role..then yes..

I sat thinking..what if he didnt accept the role??

MORALS sheri..thats what its all about chick

If he is purely against harming children PEROID..then he wouldnt have gave a beat around the what if bush answer!!

Anyone thats against hurting kids would right away regardless of the sirtuation being hypothedical or NOT..would say YES they would help

Now Sheri...I KNOW for a fact...if he had of said off the bat..YES I would help the poor child

you would be in there all ---(((hugs))) thats great hyper and throw lots of --> :wub:

Not making fun here sheri..NO..im serious..I have followed both your posts for ages now..i know how you both react to posts by now

Geri , he doesn't have kids ....for him this is hypothetical, ..... If one wouldn't hit a child, lives a completely non violent life, can't bare to kill animals for his food, its not a far leap or stretch that they wouldn't allow them to be raped either that is not rocket science...As i said he doesn't need to tell me that iots a given based on the person he is...........I understand what he is saying i know him very well and I'm going with that....

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eqgumby
Son I think this maybe beyond you I'm gonna go ahead and leave you be...You aren't interested in any pov but yours.. :tu:

Hah! Real nice. Kinda screwed-the-pooch there didn't ya? Feel guilty? Nah, of course not, that's just a "construct".

Nice how you leave with a parting shot too...it's "beyond" poor Iams, since he is so simple and caught up in his religious constructs.

Remember how this started out as a topic about religion and shame? I'll stand by my position that shame is much like a human emotion, a naturally occurring part of being human. And I am ashamed that I share this planet with people that would dehumanize and intellectualize something as rare as human kindness and decency. Good job.

By the way, that's not a "pov" of Iams, thats a "pov" of humanity. Look into it. You could use some.

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brave_new_world

Im not for paedophilia at all but I still believe they paedaphiles deserve a chance to redeem themselves. For me to give them a permanent label as sickos would be inhuman of me and would show how superficial I was.

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eqgumby
They'd feel guilty for committing to an unknown hypothetical situation, they'd be ashamed for having to use faith.

arty, I get the impression your kind of being lost in the shuffle here. Just so you know, I hear ya. And I think I get ya. :tu:

Kind of a conundrum, ain't it!? :yes:

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brave_new_world

Interesting to note also how many peoples views on this topic are based purely on emotion and not on rational intelligence.

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rev r

Let me tell you all a story.

One night my former roommate got tanked on vodka. His wife went up to check on him and found he was drunk and started a confrontation. It turned a little violent and she yelled down the stairs for me to call the police. I picked up the phone and dialed 911, to which he responded by flying down the stairs with an axe and smashing the PBX. There was a brief stare-down and a statement of intent to harm me if I moved. I let him go (he smashed up a couple of cars in the parking lot), there was no other option. He was too drunk to listen to reason, to engage him in a fight would have been suicide (he had superior position in the room and I was unarmed). We called the police from the closest payphone when he left. Do I feel guilty that I did nothing? No. I feel I performed the best I could. My martial training served me well that night.

He, on the other hand, felt very guilty for what he had done to his wife and for threatening me after some time in the clink to reflect on his actions.

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Sherapy
Sheri, I am far from being an idiot, so this is by far not beyond me. It may be beyond you to answer truthfully, and clearly, but it is not beyond me to follow as someone tries to weasel out of a straight answer they give when it is not received well.

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Radian
Im not for paedophilia at all but I still believe they paedaphiles deserve a chance to redeem themselves. For me to give them a permanent label as sickos would be inhuman of me and would show how superficial I was.

Just to let you know BNW, the point being until you have came in contact with a sicko/s and knew very well the damage they have on their victims, you are welcomed to call them pedophiles. I will call them sickos or pedos, or pedes!! Why? I have seen firsthand their sickness and the effects of child sexual abuse. I do NOT talk on an ASSUMPTION- or mere opinion. I speak on experience.

But, I can respect your views regardless.

See how it can work. :tu:

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eqgumby
Im not for paedophilia at all but I still believe they paedaphiles deserve a chance to redeem themselves. For me to give them a permanent label as sickos would be inhuman of me and would show how superficial I was.

Nah, they have cooties. Hang em!

OK, not really... :rolleyes:

I see your point, and can respect your position. It is of course all relative I suppose. Sunni also has a point as valid as any. Perhaps if these people had some SHAME or GUILT they would be able to control themselves, and seek help for what is probably learned behavior. Shame and guilt started this thread, right?

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Michelle
Interesting to note also how many peoples views on this topic are based purely on emotion and not on rational intelligence.

No, I didn't intend to get myself into a situation where a man I didn't know fell asleep on his houseboat and caught it on fire after which several explosions occured catching the adjacent houseboats on fire and so forth down the dock. What I did do was run onto the ones nearby breaking windows of the ones in danger to find out if anyone was trapped inside and grab fire extinguishers before they exploded. While I've had no trainig in that particular situation and never thought of it hypothetically, my rescue instict takes over. I quickly evaluate the situation, decide if my life is worth what guilt I would have if I did nothing and have never turned my back and walked away.

That is an extreme hypothetical that I hope never happens to anyone else, but it does show here I stand in any particular situation and it's not being a vigilante.

You seemed to have thought through that situation very well, rev...

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brave_new_world
Just to let you know BNW, the point being until you have came in contact with a sicko/s and knew very well the damage they have on their victims, you are welcomed to call them pedophiles. I will call them sickos or pedos, or pedes!! Why? I have seen firsthand their sickness and the effects of child sexual abuse. I do NOT talk on an ASSUMPTION- or mere opinion. I speak on experience.

But, I can respect your views regardless.

See how it can work. :tu:

That doesnt mean they are incapable of being able to reform themselves. Why should anyone suffer chronic remorse? Why shouldnt someone be able to turn over a new leaf? and make ammends thebest they can? What kind of society is so rigid that it that it cant find room to forgive? Forgiveness is letting go. It is letting go and being able to move on with oneself so that the forgiver isnt tied down or preoccupied with past misdoings. It is psychologically freeing for the forgiver.

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MissMelsWell

I know I've mentioned here before that my bf of the last 3 years did 10 years in prison for killing the man who sexually abused him from the time he was 14 until he was ... yes, 24 (and bf was even marrried). So here you have TWO wrongs.

Take from that what you will, assume what you'd like. But it was two WRONGS. And yes, he still bares a lot of guilt and shame (probably more shame, he hates it when people call him a hero) for killing a monster that abused him and no fewer than 7 other boys for sure. There were likely many more. Can you even guess why he carries shame with him for killing the man who tortured him? Trust me, it has NOTHING to do with religion, it has everything to do with society.

Can you guess why he felt he could tell no one? Why he felt no one could help him?

Edited by MissMelsWell

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brave_new_world
No, I didn't intend to get myself into a situation where a man I didn't know fell asleep on his houseboat and caught it on fire after which several explosions occured catching the adjacent houseboats on fire and so forth down the dock. What I did do was run onto the ones nearby breaking windows of the ones in danger to find out if anyone was trapped inside and grab fire extinguishers before they exploded. While I've had no trainig in that particular situation and never thought of it hypothetically, my rescue instict takes over. I quickly evaluate the situation, decide if my life is worth what guilt I would have if I did nothing and have never turned my back and walked away.

That is an extreme hypothetical that I hope never happens to anyone else, but it does show here I stand in any particular situation and it's not being a vigilante.

You seemed to have thought through that situation very well, rev...

But in your case you were doing the intelligent thing. Also your scenario isnt one of judging others by emotion than by intelligence.

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hyperactive
Infer means we are implying something, there is NO implying here, it is what he said.

yes, i said what i said and i stand by it. why don't you answer my REAL questions to you?

it is easy to give the expected answer to a hypothetical, but i don't see you putting your money where your mouth is. Are you doing anything REAL to address child prostitution and slavery, or is it like you implied - "out of sight, out of mind"?

Ok then...im going to ask him OUTRIGHT SIS...

Hyper if you saw a child under attack would you help them

simple answer either a YES...or a NO

I dont want none of that -- well if I accepted this and that..then yea

I am asking for a straight forward YES or no

would you help the child??

and can you explain what this means below....

QUOTE(Sunni @ May 29 2007, 05:37 PM)

Translation:

You live in the United States of America. There, it is immoral for a man to pull down his pants and attempt to sodomize a small child. Because of this fact, because it is a collective agreement that this particular act IS immoral amongst its members, you would intervene....

Yes?

Hyper - if i entered and accepted that role, yes

WHAT only IF you accepted that role?? :blink: so if you didnt accept the role..you would turn away?? wtf??

I for one cant understand why Sheri would back this up.....its beyond me

Why cant you just give a STRAIGHT forward answer YES OR NO...you beat around the bush too long Hyper...with your -> yea but no but, yea but , no but...get to the point

She asked you a simple question...it didnt require a IF!!

Before I answer let me address Iams and arty, the answer is not "yes or no" not out of an effort to weasle or out of potentially feeling guilt.

"if i entered and accepted that role" - if I was to be a police officer or other official trained and prepared to directly invade child prostitution rings and aprehend the occupants, then I can say yes I would immediately step in and stop the act in question. If that is not clear imagine you saw somebody fall off a cliff. Obviously you know they are injured, but what you REALLY do will be dependant on your past experiences and training. What you think you would do, or would like to think you would do are different from what you would do when thrust into that situation.

I can not give a straight answer because I am being honest rather than giving the socially expected answer. Anybody can say "why yes, i would immediately jump in", and in most cases can say this with immunity as they will never be put into that situation to have their statements put to the test.

These responses demonstrate how society is a veil over the reality of humanity. You want a nice answer, a safe world. The reality is different. Look at the responses when the reality is given.

So: "would you help the child??" how about "would I help the cat?" I have done that. How about "would I help the ill?" i have done that. "would I help the bear?" I have done that. "would i help the child in a different scenario" i have done that. Look at rev's post to understand how each scenario is different.

Any other questions.

So, because it would be a band aid action, I mean heck, it's only one child when there are so many others suffering, why intervene? Is that it? Why intervene to save one child when so many others are suffering? What crock!

So what are YOU doing to reduce child suffering. You will answer hypotheticals but not answer what you are really doing?

Brave,

a very valid question. If people were socially conditioned to different norms, what is accepted would be different.

Did I miss anybody?

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Michelle
But in your case you were doing the intelligent thing. Also your scenario isnt one of judging others by emotion than by intelligence.

I guess my point could have been better made, but Sheri and hyper say that they would never be in a situation where they would come across someone molesting a child and you never know a thing like that.

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brave_new_world
Nah, they have cooties. Hang em!

OK, not really... :rolleyes:

I see your point, and can respect your position. It is of course all relative I suppose. Sunni also has a point as valid as any. Perhaps if these people had some SHAME or GUILT they would be able to control themselves, and seek help for what is probably learned behavior. Shame and guilt started this thread, right?

What if they cant control their impulses? And feel shame afterwards? What I am saying is that for such people I feel pity and not hatred. What if I had kids and one of them became a molester of little children? What if a close friend or relative became one? As fortune has it , it hasnt occured but never say never. It is very easy to turn away but takes courage to help heal in some situations. I never lose sight that all people are human and that all humans should be treated humanely no matter what.

In todays soceity with all it's scientific and medical breakthroughs surely we can do something to help such people who both victimize and are also victims? Or is it that man isnt as intelligent and moral as he makes out?

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eqgumby
I know I've mentioned here before that my bf of the last 3 years did 10 years in prison for killing the man who sexually abused him from the time he was 14 until he was ... yes, 24 (and even marrried). So here you have TWO wrongs.

Take from that what you will, assume what you'd like. But it was two WRONGS. And yes, he still bares a lot of guilt and shame (probably more shame, he hates it when people call him a hero) for killing a monster that abused him and no fewer than 7 boys for sure. There were likely many more. Can you even guess why he carries shame with him for killing the man who tortured him? Trust me, it has NOTHING to do with religion, it has everything to do with society.

That's a horrid damn shame.

Makes you wonder where intellectuals and hippies get their ideas of "I don't feel guilt, I am free of that religious construct." crap, doesn't it? People like your boyfriend are the true victims of shame and guilt, and don't deserve dehumanizing at the hands of those people, and surely don't deserve to be told that they somehow are responsible for their OWN shame or guilt. I sincerely hope this man can get his life back on track, and do his grieving, get help and support where needed, and be a productive, useful HAPPY member of society! I hope it doesn't sound trite, I'm being as sincere as I can be over the internet. Kinda makes me wanna do one of those gross *huggs* things Sheri does... :no: *shakes it off*

Whew, close one.

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MissMelsWell

Ya, whatever Hyperactive, you basically are saying what I said some jazillion posts ago. You don't know until you are presented with the situation. I in fact gave two examples way back when where in one case I acted immediately, and in another case where I did not. Both I had good reasons for.

What we're talking about is right and wrong, guilt and shame. These issues DO exist. Denying they don't is preposterous.

Look at my example above. The case of Two Wrongs. What was done was done. Both parties paid for their wrong doings. One was guilty and lost his life. The other was guilty and lost 10 years of his life.

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Michelle

That always leaves me speechless, MissMells...

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