Religion and shame

[truethat]

Where have I said that I don't feel sorry?

I don't believe in wallowing in self pity, and to my mind guilt and shame have a habit of growing into just that. A person begins by feeling that they have done something wrong, which is fine, but before you know it they're the victim... poor me, I feel so guilty, I don't know what to do with myself. It's pitiful.

You mean the dinner party you don't even believe I attended? Yeah, that's a good example... one you think was fabricated in the first place.

You use it to demonstrate I'm a liar at first, and then to demonstrate that I actually offended the people you don't believe I even had dinner with. How does that make any sense? And I'm not going to rake over those luke warm coals on this thread. The bully was chucked out of the group and the matter is dead and buried.

I do not have so many problems where I live. I have nutty neighbours who are a problem for a great number of people. I'm not sure how that translates into "so many problems".

True, I get this feeling that you think you know more about me than I know about myself... but as is the case with every person on this discussion board, where we have fake names and there's no actual personal connection or relationship, that's just not possible.

Shadow I mean no offense! I never stated that you were a liar. You stated yourself that you lie as a habit not me? And you are also the one who keeps saying you have all these Christians that you can't get along with. I can only go by what you say.

But my point wasn't about that so my apologies.

What I meant was that saying that you have NO guilt and shame equates to ZERO guilt and shame. And I do think guilt and shame is necessary a little bit in order to understand boundaries.

Wallowing in guilt and shame is a whole different thing that I agree with you is unhealthy. But not having any at all is psychopathic.

You can see that having a bit of guilt and shame is necessary. Or do you say it isn't?

[Shadow_Hill]

Still trying to make him the victim of God.

I am not trying to make him anyone's victim. I have no respect for the man and haven't spoken to him for years, but I witnessed the pain caused by this incident, and whether your beliefs gel perfectly with his or not (which they appear not to), he believed that his first duty was to god, his church believed it, and he was not alone in believing that his soul was in peril if he didn't make his peace with god.

The man was selfish, and he hurt people. But had his church and his beliefs not over complicated things he would only have had his wife's unhappiness to deal with. He was entirely at fault for beginning the affair, but when he became confused and bogged down in his feelings of guilt and shame - which his church later encouraged - he may have been able to face his responsibilites sooner and prevent further pain.

[IamsSon]

I am not trying to make him anyone's victim. I have no respect for the man and haven't spoken to him for years, but I witnessed the pain caused by this incident, and whether your beliefs gel perfectly with his or not (which they appear not to), he believed that his first duty was to god, his church believed it, and he was not alone in believing that his soul was in peril if he didn't make his peace with god.

The man was selfish, and he hurt people. But had his church and his beliefs not over complicated things he would only have had his wife's unhappiness to deal with. He was entirely at fault for beginning the affair, but when he became confused and bogged down in his feelings of guilt and shame - which his church later encouraged - he may have been able to face his responsibilites sooner and prevent further pain.

From what you've said about this guy, and it's all we have to go with, he used God as a handy excuse and would have just found something else to blame and avoid dealing with the situation.

[Shadow_Hill]

Shadow I mean no offense! I never stated that you were a liar. You stated yourself that you lie as a habit not me?

I do not lie as a habit. I stated that, when faced with a Christian, a politician, or someone asking for my opinions regarding a petition, I will tell them whatever they want to hear to get them away from my front door. I don't want to debate Christianity or Conservatism, or the woman across the road's new patio door, on my step at eight in the evening when I should be having my dinner. I feel it's an intrusion, so I say "yeah yeah, whatever, I agree, good bye."

I do not lie habitually.

And you are also the one who keeps saying you have all these Christians that you can't get along with. I can only go by what you say.

If it helps I will give a little background to the situation. Many years ago I attended Christian groups, to study. I haven't done this for some time, but I still have friends from those groups. For a long while everything was tickety-boo, no problem. Then, in January this year, I was seriously ill and almost died. Since that event, each and every one of them has been trying to save me. When I first posted in this part of the forum I proudly stated that my pals hadn't tried to convert me, and hey presto it started. I understand why they want to save me - my sudden illness was a shock to everyone, not least of all me - but they are making it impossible for me. I am supposed to avoid stress at the moment, not rush headlong into it, and I am having to avoid friends because they will not let me just be who I am.

What I meant was that saying that you have NO guilt and shame equates to ZERO guilt and shame. And I do think guilt and shame is necessary a little bit in order to understand boundaries.

I don't think I have said that I feel no guilt when I have done something to hurt someone. Not that I make a habit of doing it by the way. I am aware when I have hurt a person, and I try my best to make things better.

What I don't believe in is exisiting in a perpetual state of guilt and shame. When a Christian says to me that I must confront how unworthy I am, I feel so incredibly uncomfortable about the idea that we, as humans, should think so little of ourselves. It doesn't just confuse me that such a notion exists... it makes me feel sincere grief that human beings, who are capable of so much good, should be considered so lacking and base.

[Shadow_Hill]

From what you've said about this guy, and it's all we have to go with, he used God as a handy excuse and would have just found something else to blame and avoid dealing with the situation.

That's exactly what I said to him at the time, in the hope that it would make him snap out of it. But it didn't Son, because he sincerely believed everything he said. You're going to have to take my word for this, because you obviously can't speak to him directly, but all these years later I think I was harsh to just tell him to stop blaming god. He was tormented by the belief that he had failed god and when he told me that god had abandoned him, I do believe now that he truly believed that. And his church encouraged him to focus on his relationship with god, so they didn't help.

[IamsSon]

That's exactly what I said to him at the time, in the hope that it would make him snap out of it. But it didn't Son, because he sincerely believed everything he said. You're going to have to take my word for this, because you obviously can't speak to him directly, but all these years later I think I was harsh to just tell him to stop blaming god. He was tormented by the belief that he had failed god and when he told me that god had abandoned him, I do believe now that he truly believed that. And his church encouraged him to focus on his relationship with god, so they didn't help.

This still does not show how guilt or shame are bad things when dealt with properly, nor does it show that God is at fault for what this guy decided to do and then for the way he decided to deal with it. If he had taken responsibility either before the situation developed to the point of getting out of hand, or had taken responsibility for what he had done, then the shame and guilt would have been dealt with properly. Guilt and shame should make us react responsibly, if we fail to heed those warnings and decide to continue on the path they are trying to warn us off, then we are responsible for what happens.

I feel sorry for the guy and for what his wife and sister must have gone through, and maybe there was no one in that church who could even stop for one second and ask themselves, "How would Jesus deal with this guy now that he's gotten himself in this situation?" They may have been too busy being religious, to share God's love.

Edited May 19, 2007 by IamsSon

[Shadow_Hill]

This still does not show how guilt or shame are bad things when dealt with properly, nor does it show that God is at fault for what this guy decided to do and then for the way he decided to deal with it.

Well, it kind of depends on how you look at appropriate behaviour where guilt and shame are concerned. For me, the non-Christian, I was, at that time, unmarried and living with my now husband. I didn't feel guilty about "living in sin" and I didn't ask for forgiveness every time I slept with my partner. I had a healthy relationship. Phil, being a Christian, slept with his wife before they were married and felt immense guilt, and this, he later admitted, was one of the reasons he felt he had to get married. So, we've got that whole guilt and shame thing going before he's even done anything wrong from my perspective. So, who decides what is and isn't healthy with regards to what we should or shouldn't feel guilty about?

My friend, sexually assaulted and made pregnant... had an abortion. My Catholic aunt outraged by the whole thing, said the girl needed to be "horse whipped" for murdering a baby and deserved to burn in hell. Ok, my aunt doesn't know when to keep her offensive opinions to herself, but she's not the only Catholic who thinks that way. So, had my friend been a Catholic, which she wasn't, she would have had shame and guilt to deal with, not just the sexual assault and subsequent court case.

My mother-in-law, to this day is twisted up inside because she can't get past her divorce. She cannot move on. She lives in a constant state of shame. Had she been an Atheists she would most likely be living a great life by now. True, she would probably still hate the site of me, but she'd be happy while she did it.

So how do we decide when we should be guilty, when we should feel shame?

I believe in the Creator, and no I don't believe he is responsible for Phil's problems. But I do believe that a faith which teaches men to feel shame and guilt for actions which are normal and healthy (sex before marriage for example), promotes a feeling of being less than. And feeling that you are unworthy for doing something which is perfectly natural does not aid personal growth, it prevents it.

I feel sorry for the guy and for what his wife and sister must have gone through, and maybe there was no one in that church who could even stop for one second and ask themselves, "How would Jesus deal with this guy now that he's gotten himself in this situation?" They may have been too busy being religious, to share God's love.

You're right there... a terribly religious lot. Believe it or not, Phil's mother-in-law was the moving force in that group, and the fact that the matter involved her own daughter did not move her when she spouted scripture at the couple and told Phil to look to god rather than his wife.

[IamsSon]

Well, it kind of depends on how you look at appropriate behaviour where guilt and shame are concerned. For me, the non-Christian, I was, at that time, unmarried and living with my now husband. I didn't feel guilty about "living in sin" and I didn't ask for forgiveness every time I slept with my partner. I had a healthy relationship. Phil, being a Christian, slept with his wife before they were married and felt immense guilt, and this, he later admitted, was one of the reasons he felt he had to get married. So, we've got that whole guilt and shame thing going before he's even done anything wrong from my perspective. So, who decides what is and isn't healthy with regards to what we should or shouldn't feel guilty about?

My friend, sexually assaulted and made pregnant... had an abortion. My Catholic aunt outraged by the whole thing, said the girl needed to be "horse whipped" for murdering a baby and deserved to burn in hell. Ok, my aunt doesn't know when to keep her offensive opinions to herself, but she's not the only Catholic who thinks that way. So, had my friend been a Catholic, which she wasn't, she would have had shame and guilt to deal with, not just the sexual assault and subsequent court case.

My mother-in-law, to this day is twisted up inside because she can't get past her divorce. She cannot move on. She lives in a constant state of shame. Had she been an Atheists she would most likely be living a great life by now. True, she would probably still hate the site of me, but she'd be happy while she did it.

So how do we decide when we should be guilty, when we should feel shame?

I believe in the Creator, and no I don't believe he is responsible for Phil's problems. But I do believe that a faith which teaches men to feel shame and guilt for actions which are normal and healthy (sex before marriage for example), promotes a feeling of being less than. And feeling that you are unworthy for doing something which is perfectly natural does not aid personal growth, it prevents it.

So, you seem to be saying being Atheist or Deist means never having to feel shame or guilt, while being Christian means always feeling guilt or shame.

You're right there... a terribly religious lot. Believe it or not, Phil's mother-in-law was the moving force in that group, and the fact that the matter involved her own daughter did not move her when she spouted scripture at the couple and told Phil to look to god rather than his wife.

Yes, religion is a harsh god.

[Shadow_Hill]

So, you seem to be saying being Atheist or Deist means never having to feel shame or guilt, while being Christian means always feeling guilt or shame.

Noooo, you're reading more than I'm writing. I'm saying that the standards are set differently by different groups. Those beliefs inspire guilt and shame in varying degrees depending on the act. For one group there is no guilt associated with an action, for another it's a terrible sin. So whereas the Christian believes pre-marital sex is a sin, I believe it is healthy and a good way to road test your future husband/wife and make sure you're not making one heck of a mistake.

I'm not saying that the Atheist or Deist never feels guilt or shame - all peeps are different. I'm saying that if you think about the number of things that are considered a sin, and then consider man's inability to avoid doing quite a bit of what is prohibited, you end up with a population which is continually sinning... continually feeling guilty... and that is not healthy.

There are certain things which all of us must avoid doing... killing people, raping them, etc. There are things which we all (if we're good peeps) consider to be wrong... cheating, stealing, beating people up left right and centre. But there is no reason for the Atheist or Deist to spend their lives trying to avoid doing things which are harmless and natural - like having sex (hetero/homo/bi), or looking at pornography, or mentally undressing the man next door, or wishing you had your neighbour's new Jaguar.

For the Atheist and Deist, we begin as a blank canvas, and if we go wrong we correct ourselves, pick up, and keep on going. For the Christian, we are sinners who need forgiveness, and acts that Atheists/Deists consider harmless have us on a fast track to hell.

I've got friends who, right now, are listing all my misdemeanors to get me to see the error of my ways... they are attempting to make me confront my unworthyness... to make me feel guilt and shame. I ain't going there.

[TheKnight]

There are certain things which all of us must avoid doing... killing people, raping them, etc. There are things which we all (if we're good peeps) consider to be wrong... cheating, stealing, beating people up left right and centre. But there is no reason for the Atheist or Deist to spend their lives trying to avoid doing things which are harmless and natural - like having sex (hetero/homo/bi), or looking at pornography, or mentally undressing the man next door, or wishing you had your neighbour's new Jaguar.

For the Atheist and Deist, we begin as a blank canvas, and if we go wrong we correct ourselves, pick up, and keep on going. For the Christian, we are sinners who need forgiveness, and acts that Atheists/Deists consider harmless have us on a fast track to hell.

What makes you think that it's sin that leads to hell? What makes you think that because of sins that you commit you are damned? No, it isn't that. It's because your slapping God in the face that you go to hell. When God asks you not to have sex outside of marriage, he doesn't do it because it's wrong, he asks because he wants to see where your priorities are. Heaven is eternal existence with God. That means the people there will have loved God enough in life to give up anything for him, and it means that God will want to be with those people. When you decide to have sex out of marriage, it's not that it's wrong necessarily, it's that God asked you not to do it. When you decide to do it, your saying that you value your 15 mins or so of pleasure more than you do him. When you decide to look at porn your choosing yourself over God. You can't do that and go to heaven at the same time because why would God want someone with him for eternity when that person is concerned so much for him/herself that he/she can't give up some pleasures? Why should you want to go there other for selfish gratification? The reward of heaven isn't the stuff that's there (ie the gold, food, happiness), the reward is that you get to be with God. To the Christian who loves God, being with him is enough to make them happy for eternity, even if they didn't have the extra perks. When Christians decide not to sin they do so out of love towards God (or they should anyway). That's the whole point. God wants us to make a decision between him, and ourselves/other people. When you do things he asks you not to do, you are making your decision.

[Shadow_Hill]

What makes you think that it's sin that leads to hell? What makes you think that because of sins that you commit you are damned? No, it isn't that. It's because your slapping God in the face that you go to hell. When God asks you not to have sex outside of marriage, he doesn't do it because it's wrong, he asks because he wants to see where your priorities are. Heaven is eternal existence with God. That means the people there will have loved God enough in life to give up anything for him, and it means that God will want to be with those people. When you decide to have sex out of marriage, it's not that it's wrong necessarily, it's that God asked you not to do it. When you decide to do it, your saying that you value your 15 mins or so of pleasure more than you do him. When you decide to look at porn your choosing yourself over God. You can't do that and go to heaven at the same time because why would God want someone with him for eternity when that person is concerned so much for him/herself that he/she can't give up some pleasures? Why should you want to go there other for selfish gratification? The reward of heaven isn't the stuff that's there (ie the gold, food, happiness), the reward is that you get to be with God. To the Christian who loves God, being with him is enough to make them happy for eternity, even if they didn't have the extra perks. When Christians decide not to sin they do so out of love towards God (or they should anyway). That's the whole point. God wants us to make a decision between him, and ourselves/other people. When you do things he asks you not to do, you are making your decision.

What kind of insecure puppet master of a deity needs us to spend our entire lives choosing between him and ourselves. You know, if you're in a relationship with a man who tests you constantly, to see just how much you love him... makes you give things up, makes you jump through hoops to please him, and nothing you ever do is good enough to make him feel secure in the relationship... people tell you to get out of that unhealthy relationship as quick as you can. But remove the man and make that figure a deity, and hey presto everyone's saying this manipulation is "love" and encouraging you to have a relationship with him. I cannot live with such contradictions... it makes my head hurt.

[Skim Milky]

lifes not perfect. it just isnt. its not meant to be. rain falls on the just and the injust alike. god is not a cosmic puppet master. he doesnt make you choose. every person who has ever had a breath in their body has hard times. you choose how to react. if there were no difficult times, you couldnt appreciate the good ones.

[TheKnight]

What kind of insecure puppet master of a deity needs us to spend our entire lives choosing between him and ourselves. You know, if you're in a relationship with a man who tests you constantly, to see just how much you love him... makes you give things up, makes you jump through hoops to please him, and nothing you ever do is good enough to make him feel secure in the relationship... people tell you to get out of that unhealthy relationship as quick as you can. But remove the man and make that figure a deity, and hey presto everyone's saying this manipulation is "love" and encouraging you to have a relationship with him. I cannot live with such contradictions... it makes my head hurt.

God doesn't need it, he wants it. And the tests and hoops and what not...I enjoy them. I like doing things for God, I love him. You can call him an insecure puppet master diety who's needy, you are entitled to your beliefs, but he's MY puppet master insecure needy deity, and I love him the way he is.

[Beckys_Mom]

What kind of insecure puppet master of a deity needs us to spend our entire lives choosing between him and ourselves. You know, if you're in a relationship with a man who tests you constantly, to see just how much you love him... makes you give things up, makes you jump through hoops to please him, and nothing you ever do is good enough to make him feel secure in the relationship... people tell you to get out of that unhealthy relationship as quick as you can. But remove the man and make that figure a deity, and hey presto everyone's saying this manipulation is "love" and encouraging you to have a relationship with him. I cannot live with such contradictions... it makes my head hurt.

You're right shaddow, we aren't puppets, we ar human beings

[+Sherapy]

Better yet Sheri, let me give you a real life example.

Say your best friend is getting married. She gives you her amazing $5,000 wedding dress, the dress of her dreams, she saved for years for it, and you're to bring it to the wedding for her where she's going to get dressed and ready to be married. She can't keep the dress with her because she's from out of town, and her Dad smokes and she doesnt't want it to get all stinky.

So, it's 2 hours before the wedding and you're getting ready to head for the country club where the justice of the peace, the photographer the bride and everyone are waiting for the dress. As you're carefully getting the dress into the car your son gets over-eager, and slams the door on the dress, getting it covered with grease, grime and it tears a big hole in the front.

Are you going to tell me you don't feel guilty for that? If not, what DO you feel? What do you tell the Bride? What do you emotionally show her of yourself? Remember, she's your BEST friend and that was the dress of her dreams and the wedding of her dreams. The dress is ruined beyond repair and it's your fault, even though it was an accident caused by your son, it was entrusted to your care.

1. What feeling do you have when you see the dress is ruined?

2. What are you feeling when you're looking at your son?

3. What do you say to your son?

4. What are you feeling when you arrive at the Country Club and tell your BEST friend her dress is ruined?

5. What do you tell her in regards to her dress?

Answer those questions and maybe I'll get a sense of where you're coming from. It would be easiest if you answered directly, keeping the 1-5 format so I understand where one answer ends and the other begins.

Mw I can tell you this would not happen for so many reasons i have really fabulous kids period for one and for two there would of been alot of thought put into this before hand...In the event this did happen i would replace that dress immediatly and I do not have friends that would require i am ashamed or feel bad, nor do i require this of any of my friends or beloveds.......Love truly means never having to say you are sorry .......

there are many paths to being a awesome considerate 'good' person ...IMO religion is very ineffective in creating the sort of person i am and continuely aspire to be, the methods are ineffective and what you have is a sin sense based on how effectively one has been threatened and punished into being moral. this is a common factor of a control based dogma.. It is observable it is not very effective though in creating behaviors that are beneficial shame and guilt are well known to be harmful to humans.... we have more violence than ever before and religion has had 2000 years to correct this and has failed, IMO it is ineffective in teaching one to produce behaviors that are a benefit to the whole ......

a healthy functioning conscience as is natural to every being , if its impaired one may want to look to the dogmas that dim it and impair it, MW it was my understanding according to your post you were raised as i parent if so then you would understand the essence of a conscience and how it works and be able to share what i am saying LOL .....one seeks immediate correction, not self pity and throes of guilt and shame as any kind of repair LOL sorries do not mean anything IMO they are a earmark of lack of responsibilty and a potential to repeat the behavior...... .... correct the issue,by changing the behavior that led to it understand the whys, hows and why nots....whatever that may be for all involved to the best of ones ability and circumstance.... this is responsibility and growth .....

i would never ask another human to feel ashamed of themselves or guilty as this is harmful, i have a ethic of non violence that i adhere too to the best of my understanding.......yes i have felt regret for choices in my life that have lead to outcomes i found ineffective......

Edited May 20, 2007 by Supra Sheri

[MissMelsWell]

Sheri, you're out in outer limits... I didn't even read past the first few sentences.

1. I wasn't implying your kids weren't wonderful... they get excited, things happen--accidents. And YES those things DO happen, if they don't... your kids must live in a plastic bubble.

2. In my hypothetical situtation, you can't replace the dress, the wedding is in 2 hours.

A ruined 5000 dollar dress of someones DREAMS on their wedding day ... trust me, you're going to have one hystarical bride on your hands, I don't care how much she likes or even loves you. You didn't answer my questions at all. Nor did you give them any thought, which sums up what I've been thinking the last month.

These weren't religious questions Sheri, these were common humanity, truth, and emotional consequece questions. Ones you couldn't answer honestly. That's very telling.

Edited May 21, 2007 by MissMelsWell

[TheKnight]

Mw I can tell you this would not happen for so many reasons i have really fabulous kids period for one and for two there would of been alot of thought put into this before hand...In the event this did happen i would replace that dress immediatly and I do not have friends that would require i am ashamed or feel bad, nor do i require this of any of my friends or beloveds.......Love truly means never having to say you are sorry .......

there are many paths to being a awesome considerate 'good' person ...IMO religion is very ineffective in creating the sort of person i am and continuely aspire to be, the methods are ineffective and what you have is a sin sense based on how effectively one has been threatened and punished into being moral. this is a common factor of a control based dogma.. It is observable it is not very effective though in creating behaviors that are beneficial shame and guilt are well known to be harmful to humans.... we have more violence than ever before and religion has had 2000 years to correct this and has failed, IMO it is ineffective in teaching one to produce behaviors that are a benefit to the whole ......

a healthy functioning conscience as is natural to every being , if its impaired one may want to look to the dogmas that dim it and impair it, MW it was my understanding according to your post you were raised as i parent if so then you would understand the essence of a conscience and how it works and be able to share what i am saying LOL .....one seeks immediate correction, not self pity and throes of guilt and shame as any kind of repair LOL sorries do not mean anything IMO they are a earmark of lack of responsibilty and a potential to repeat the behavior...... .... correct the issue,by changing the behavior that led to it understand the whys, hows and why nots....whatever that may be for all involved to the best of ones ability and circumstance.... this is responsibility and growth .....

i would never ask another human to feel ashamed of themselves or guilty as this is harmful, i have a ethic of non violence that i adhere too to the best of my understanding.......yes i have felt regret for choices in my life that have lead to outcomes i found ineffective......

So if you do something wrong you don't apologize...hmmm...interesting....that's counterproductive to peace, and it speaks volumes about your character (or lack thereof) and pride...

Edited May 21, 2007 by Child-Of-Israel

[Lt_Ripley]

plain and simple. All people unless they are sick have felt guilt and shame in their lives.

some people use guilt and shame for attention ( whether they realize it or not )

some people keep guilt and shame because they have not been able to get over and resolve a conflict. some never seem too. My grandmother still feels guilt and shame. ( my grandmother had to leave her child behind in the Ukraine right before the famine/genocide because she had an American passport but the baby had not.Only those with passports could leave and her parents made her leave. she was 16 and the only one born here . her parents came here , had her , then moved back to the Ukraine when my grandmother was 5) That was also the last time she had seen or heard from her family.

she also carries survivors guilt.

I defy anyone to live through that and to not feel remnants of guilt and sorrow no matter how long you live. It gets easier , but never goes away. It's become part of a sorrow she lives with and only twice I have heard her speak of.

try having to leave a child behind - no choice to stay or leave yourself, it being done for you.

[+Sherapy]

Sheri, you're out in outer limits... I didn't even read past the first few sentences.

1. I wasn't implying your kids weren't wonderful... they get excited, things happen--accidents. And YES those things DO happen, if they don't... your kids must live in a plastic bubble.

2. In my hypothetical situtation, you can't replace the dress, the wedding is in 2 hours.

A ruined 5000 dollar dress of someones DREAMS on their wedding day ... trust me, you're going to have one hystarical bride on your hands, I don't care how much she likes or even loves you. You didn't answer my questions at all. Nor did you give them any thought, which sums up what I've been thinking the last month.

These weren't religious questions Sheri, these were common humanity, truth, and emotional consequece questions. Ones you couldn't answer honestly. That's very telling.

LOl...Mw as always a delight, ...well we are in agreement there isn't much of a converstation here..

[MissMelsWell]

That's an excellent example Lt. Ripley. Quite heartwrenching, and I can't imagine having to ever make those kinds of decisions or having had to have been faced with any of that. It gives me goosebumps to even think about it.

[MissMelsWell]

LOl...Mw as always a delight, ...well we are in agreement there isn't much of a converstation here..

Ummm, try again, that makes no sense.

[IamsSon]

Ummm, try again, that makes no sense.

Shocking isn't it?

[+Sherapy]

plain and simple. All people unless they are sick have felt guilt and shame in their lives.

some people use guilt and shame for attention ( whether they realize it or not )

some people keep guilt and shame because they have not been able to get over and resolve a conflict. some never seem too. My grandmother still feels guilt and shame. ( my grandmother had to leave her child behind in the Ukraine right before the famine/genocide because she had an American passport but the baby had not.Only those with passports could leave and her parents made her leave. she was 16 and the only one born here . her parents came here , had her , then moved back to the Ukraine when my grandmother was 5) That was also the last time she had seen or heard from her family.

she also carries survivors guilt.

I defy anyone to live through that and to not feel remnants of guilt and sorrow no matter how long you live. It gets easier , but never goes away. It's become part of a sorrow she lives with and only twice I have heard her speak of.

try having to leave a child behind - no choice to stay or leave yourself, it being done for you.

sorrow is natural LR, regret is natural but to feel shame and guilt are taught, to feel bad about oneself is taught.....its not nessecary to remorse...christianity is a control system, . it uses fear and guilt and shame to do this....

for you it seems hard to imagine any other way but christianity limits the options for a reason..LOL

[MissMelsWell]

Shocking isn't it?

Oh IamsSon, I WISH it WERE shocking, but saddly, it isn't.

[TheKnight]

sorrow is natural LR, regret is natural but to feel shame and guilt are taught, to feel bad about oneself is taught.....its not nessecary to remorse...christianity is a control system, . it uses fear and guilt and shame to do this....

for you it seems hard to imagine any other way but christianity limits the options for a reason..LOL

Do you seriously believe that?