dlv Posted June 22, 2007 #51 Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) Ditto to this also Div, I have had this experience, along with some of those other non spiritual paranormal experiences you mention, and it DOES change your entire world view about everything. If you don't mind, would you care to elaborate, or share your experience(s) with us? Peace. Edited June 22, 2007 by dlv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlv Posted June 22, 2007 #52 Share Posted June 22, 2007 I can only hope my zeal and fortitude are enough....as i am to lead by example. A seeker who truly lets God in (with no holds barred, totally accepts whatever God throws at him or her, and no bartering involved) is quite commendable in my book. God speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 22, 2007 #53 Share Posted June 22, 2007 There is no action in Belief or Faith, they are simply a justification for thoughts. A lot of our actions proceed from what be believe we are, believe to be moral etc. Wouldn't it be fair to say that if we are unhappy in life or causing destruction to our fellow neighbours then the source could be from a negative belief system that is shaping our actions/reality? Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita Belief is not only a justification but an influence upon our actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 22, 2007 #54 Share Posted June 22, 2007 A seeker who truly lets God in (with no holds barred, totally accepts whatever God throws at him or her, and no bartering involved) is quite commendable in my book. God speed. God is the Shephard of my life. My life is dedicated to Him. I agree with you.....though to totally match each of those is impossible. However, I strive and give God my all.....I can only hope it is acceptable. I know it is because He is merciful.....but in reality we can never make it up. Seek the guidlines which u set, for they r the path to righteousness. If you don't mind, would you care to elaborate, or share your experience(s) with us? Peace. Yes, please do elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow_flame Posted June 22, 2007 #55 Share Posted June 22, 2007 ...in the eyes of God, Truth or whatever it is you refer it too. Hellooooooooooooo, Ok, just wanna throw this one in, these are my thoughts on the matter. Belief and Faith are a tool to allow polite disreguard in discussion.....ignorance. Belief and Faith are manefestations of the ego to give validation (when someone desires their point to be validated) to something that doesnt make sense in someone elses belief system (ego manefestation). The context of Belief and Faith contradicts their purpose. Does God require people to believe in "him"? Surely Belief is only required when people have not had direct experience of something, yet there are so many people who claim that what they have faith in is therefore the "truth". hmmm, there we go, what are your thoughts? nn23 ...in the eyes of God, Truth or whatever it is you refer it too. Hellooooooooooooo, Ok, just wanna throw this one in, these are my thoughts on the matter. Belief and Faith are a tool to allow polite disreguard in discussion.....ignorance. Belief and Faith are manefestations of the ego to give validation (when someone desires their point to be validated) to something that doesnt make sense in someone elses belief system (ego manefestation). The context of Belief and Faith contradicts their purpose. Does God require people to believe in "him"? Surely Belief is only required when people have not had direct experience of something, yet there are so many people who claim that what they have faith in is therefore the "truth". hmmm, there we go, what are your thoughts? nn23 right... your logic doesn't hold. 1. there are many religious people that aren't ignorant. 2. maybe, but some religions are difficult to follow, and people that follow them might get bashed all the time. for instance, if some christian says something, people throw at him arguments about inquisition, and crusades. also, as much as i understand, some pagans and satanist get hard time out in real life, (but also on internet), and i think that almost every religion have their natural enemies. what's the point of this speech? well,if people made/followed religions because of ego, then why would they subject themselves to possible violence from other religions? 3. we don't *know* does god require faith of us. we can't predict will rain fall next week, but we try to predict natures of some of most powerful beings in the universe (if they exist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiTino Posted June 22, 2007 Author #56 Share Posted June 22, 2007 There is no action in Belief or Faith, they are simply a justification for thoughts.A lot of our actions proceed from what be believe we are, believe to be moral etc. Wouldn't it be fair to say that if we are unhappy in life or causing destruction to our fellow neighbours then the source could be from a negative belief system that is shaping our actions/reality? Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita Belief is not only a justification but an influence upon our actions. BRRRILLIANT!!! i LOVE that BG quote you gave me, thanks Brave, it communicates its message so simply and i do not disagree with it, but my original statement still holds...Belief and Faith are meaningless in the eyes of God etc. When something is self evident, belief surely is simply a word to communicate what you in yourself "are" to others, because others see themselves as a seperate "are" and so by comparison to you, an "are not" dualism . Actually, that BG quote is a beautiful example. When you look at the statement from the view of belief simply as a word (linguistically speaking) that serves to validate the subject of its reference, it isnt really trying to put forward a message about belief but about the limitlessness of being, "so he is", which paves the way for realisation. People who live their lives fixed to the bindings of duality can not comprehend this and anything man can not comprehend he deems as "disproven" or impossible, so "belief" in this case is used as a tool to communicate the limitlessness of self without alienating the audiance....But if the purpose was a guide to self realisation or "enlightenment" then once one recognises God then belief or faith serve no purpose for God is self evident. It is then only required as a linguistic tool to communicate this to others who remain in duality. My beef is that many internalise what they believe, not as the dualistic tool of communication which it is, but as the actuality of the subject to which they refer it. In this manner it is internalised as a "belief in" rather than the actual subject itself, and whilst being a guide it can also be a limitation or veil upon the actual subject of its reference... reality "I believe"...where is the reality in that statement, in what it presents or where it comes from? ....and if so, why place reality into the binds of the dualistic certainty* of belief...it maybe a guide for some but also a bind for many others... Some people spend their whole lives being guided as though the source of their belief is a destination, or something to be get...duality, agAIN! When i wrote that (There is no action in Belief or Faith, they are simply a justification for thoughts.) i was thinking in the context of that Ramana quote you gave me.....Everything is predetermined. But one is always free not to identify oneself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasure and pain associated with its activities. When he says "with the body" he is refering to all thought, justifications influence, it could even be said that influence is nearly always the ego and desire and perhaps this is where belief can only take you so far. It is forged by a desire for the subject of belief to be truth. It serves a purpose for sure, but as BG also states desire can only lead to sorrow, the poisened apple. Identifying with the source rather than the percieved does not require belief for it is self evident therefore... HA HAAA, I've TOTALLY Moydered ... NICE ONE! nn23 *and therefore uncertainty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerSpace Posted June 22, 2007 #57 Share Posted June 22, 2007 (edited) Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita Belief is not only a justification but an influence upon our actions. Also mentioned in the OT: "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he," (Proverbs 23:7) and contains the key to understanding. ....But if the purpose was a guide to self realisation or "enlightenment" then once one recognises God then belief or faith serve no purpose for God is self evident. It is then only required as a linguistic tool to communicate this to others who remain in duality. My beef is that many internalise what they believe, not as the dualistic tool of communication which it is, but as the actuality of the subject to which they refer it. In this manner it is internalised as a "belief in" rather than the actual subject itself, and whilst being a guide it can also be a limitation or veil upon the actual subject of its reference... reality "I believe"...where is the reality in that statement, in what it presents or where it comes from? ....and if so, why place reality into the binds of the dualistic certainty* of belief...it maybe a guide for some but also a bind for many others... Some people spend their whole lives being guided as though the source of their belief is a destination, or something to be get...duality, agAIN! *and therefore uncertainty Woman...it's so good to have you back. Your were sorely missed. Loved this post. Edited June 22, 2007 by Inner Space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlv Posted June 22, 2007 #58 Share Posted June 22, 2007 God is the Shephard of my life. My life is dedicated to Him. However, I strive and give God my all.....I can only hope it is acceptable. Such bravery and ardor!!! Thank you, it sure gives one hope... And no doubt, God will take you on a wonderful journey, especially since you asked for it. Listen, and listen well children to this pilgrim's quest! Please keep us up to date with your spiritual adventures. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mai Ke Lau Posted June 22, 2007 #59 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Ni Hao Not understand why make one people self slave to one of Christmans god is brave. All sound ma ma hu hu huli hutu..not sound good for peoples. Just chineseman idea. tsai chien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlv Posted June 22, 2007 #60 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Ni Hao Not understand why make one people self slave to one of Christmans god is brave. All sound ma ma hu hu huli hutu..not sound good for peoples. Just chineseman idea. tsai chien Did I write, "Christmas," or did I read you wrong??? At any rate, I ain't goin' dat road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mai Ke Lau Posted June 22, 2007 #61 Share Posted June 22, 2007 tuei pu chi but english no good. I say Christ mans - people believe Christ man. tsai chien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiTino Posted June 23, 2007 Author #62 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Faith and belief will become meaningless when one has an in-yer-face, one-on-one conversation with God. Absolute Truth, with a capital "T," will replace them, I believe. There will be no more doubting, no more hearsay, no more theories, but whatever this absolute Truth might be, that, I cannot tell you since I've never had this direct experience. True, I've experienced otherworldly (psychic) events in my life; nevertheless, I still have my dreams (sincere desires) to fulfill. God, alone, placed them in my being, I believe, like a computer program. There are no accidents. Yes, I'm not ready for the "Thy will be done" scenarios, completely. I still pray to hopefully get my way. Wanting is okay by me. At least, I'm very honest about it. Basically, when one has an once of prayer left, one is never entirely ready to let go or "just be" or surrender or renounce anything. A prayer is a want, after all, no matter how one tries to sweeten it due to one's religious guilt (perhaps). There is always the "but this, but that" factor going on. Even wanting to see God is a major desire, I'm sure you know. And while one is on Earth, one is never completely certain about anything, even if one has a great map. Time has a way of distorting whatever it is one holds so dearly as fact, experience, Earthly reality, certainty, stability, and so on. On the other hand, faith and belief are necessary. If anything else, they make one feel good (hopefully). Besides, what is there to lose by believing, etc.??? One theory certainly doesn't cancel out the rest. While on Earth, "saints" are just as trapped as the rest, regardless of whatever they claim (blah blah). They could claim all they want about "truth this and ignorance that," but baby, I still have my dreams and sincere desires to fulfill. One has to be honest to one's self before one could really move on. Finish point A before moving on to point B... And my point A is getting everything I want, my way, for now. It's so easy for people to say, "Let go" when they have all the goodies, intact. And I never see them sharing their loot..., to me. What good is that to me??? "Hold on to your dreams. Don't let 'em slip from your hands..." -- JOI CARDWELL DLV, this reply was truely an earnest and sincere peice of writing, it was a pleasure to read. ------------------------------------------------------------- ...in the eyes of God, Truth or whatever it is you refer it too. Hellooooooooooooo, Ok, just wanna throw this one in, these are my thoughts on the matter. Belief and Faith are a tool to allow polite disreguard in discussion.....ignorance. Belief and Faith are manefestations of the ego to give validation (when someone desires their point to be validated) to something that doesnt make sense in someone elses belief system (ego manefestation). The context of Belief and Faith contradicts their purpose. Does God require people to believe in "him"? Surely Belief is only required when people have not had direct experience of something, yet there are so many people who claim that what they have faith in is therefore the "truth". hmmm, there we go, what are your thoughts? thumbsup.gif nn23 Would that be a scientific fact, or just something you BELIEVE? HA HAAA, good one, exACTLY!!! From your perspective it can be what i believe, and the duality of this is what i understand you to believe in, for it is just a tool for communication. All percieved fact or truth is just a subjective experience but not the reality. The map is not the territory ~ Alfred Korzybski So the word belief has little meaning to those who do not believe and the meaning it serves for the person using the word is a matter of validation which is irrelevant when something really IS true, which therefore means that that which they apply it to is just the reflection but not the source. I think if someone slapped you in the face, you'd believe it happened and you'd believe in the existence of the one who slapped. Likewise for any experience you have. If someone slapped me in the face yesterday, they did not slap me in the face today, my mind holds an incorporial thought or reflection that someone slapped me in the face yesterday. But this slap no longer exists today, so it requires belief. When it actually happens belief is not required for it is. There is no Truth. There is only the truth within each moment ~ Ramana Maharshi But when it comes to a religious explanation of belief and faith, those two words could be simplified into one: TRUST. When we experience something so profound as God, we are curious of this experience. When we understand it, we trust it. So thus, faith and belief do not condone ignorance. Its taking what you understand to be truth and trusting it.What need is there with trust when you are experiencing? .......and why must this experience stop?* Perhaps it is because people cling too closely to their belief in the experience (perceptions/thoughts... of yesterday) which is triggered and perpetuated by their desire for more, they miss the experience happening within the moment which requires no trust or belief for it is. *"curiosity of this experience" implying reflection of past event. ------------------------------------------------------------- Right, belief and faith aren't truth because truth is a fact. Belief is something you think my be true, but can't be proven. Think of how you use the word "believe" in conversation. If you unsure about something you say "I believe this to be so, but don't quote me on it." If your sure about something you say "Yes this is how it is, it is a fact."yeah, I get what your saying man Yet so many 'facts' have been subject to modification. This makes them not facts, but observations UNTO a factual resolution. Even then, the factual resolution may not be final. Thus then, we observe what we believe to be a true observation, believe in it, and have faith in it to be known as truth. Its what he understand as to what we call fact. We understand gravity in its current explanation and call it fact. But what if it was modified? What if we found out that we TOTALLY misunderstood gravity? That, then, wouldn't make our understanding of gravity a fact, but just that: our understanding to what we 'thought or believed' was truth.Yeah right, thats a good argument nice one, again, its meaning is only that which the subject desires to project to the audiance. Belief is not about the subject to which it refers but the desire of the experiencer to project their understanding. If they believed what they understand then they would not need to say they did because they have faith that it is true. On the argument of using it as a tool to communicate to others that they are open minded enough not to state what they understand of their experience as the experience itself which would be inaccurate, to gain validation of their point, why do they bind themselves to their understanding of it (belief) in the first place when they are aware that it is not the experience itself/reality? Memory never recaptures reality. Memory reconstructs. All reconstructions change the original, becoming external frames of reference that inevitably fall short. Mentat Handbook Heretics of Dune That which we believe can never be reality. ------------------------------------------------------------- Want a trip? Its been a few years...BAH! go on then! Why don't u sit down one day and ask with sincerity, "If u are there God, reveal yourself to me that I may know you." If u want to do it the hard way, ask Him to remove His presence from around u instead. For even if u don't accept Him, He is always with u incase u change ur mind and knocking at the door of ur heart. Even the lost have the comfort of His presence, they just don't realize it. One second of His abandonement will be enough to leave an emotional scar for the rest of ur life. Try it, He dares u! TboneMinister Thanks man, thats sweet ...hmmm, well, if ya wanna play that game I double dare you to ask your self who it is that believes in God? I tripple dare you to then ask your self....What is the ultimate source of my answer? I quadruple dare you to then ask your self....Who am i? ------------------------------------------------------------- Belief and Faith are not meaningless...they have meaning to those who engage them. yeah, the full statement was..."belief and faith are meaningless....in the eyes of God etc" Of universal truth is the fact that we are all taught from childhood the belief system of our parents or guardians. None of the things we are taught are necessarily true....of a necessity they are all not true....yet what we engage as belief system validates our perceptions in these matters. yeahhh... We express what we believe to be so, to validate our perceptions in the face of disreguard, and perhaps in turn this politely disreguards the beliefs of others. But if we believe our beliefs, why do we need to validate our understandings and learning by using the word? ...communication....Why do we communicate?....As a means to engage all our desires whether they be altruistic or selfish, so belief is spawned by a desire. WOW cheers for all your posts guys...LOVE IIIIT!!! NICE ONE! nn23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #63 Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) DLV, this reply was truely an earnest and sincere peice of writing, it was a pleasure to read. ------------------------------------------------------------- HA HAAA, good one, exACTLY!!! From your perspective it can be what i believe, and the duality of this is what i understand you to believe in, for it is just a tool for communication. All percieved fact or truth is just a subjective experience but not the reality. The map is not the territory ~ Alfred Korzybski So the word belief has little meaning to those who do not believe and the meaning it serves for the person using the word is a matter of validation which is irrelevant when something really IS true, which therefore means that that which they apply it to is just the reflection but not the source. If someone slapped me in the face yesterday, they did not slap me in the face today, my mind holds an incorporial thought or reflection that someone slapped me in the face yesterday. But this slap no longer exists today, so it requires belief. When it actually happens belief is not required for it is. There is no Truth. There is only the truth within each moment ~ Ramana Maharshi What need is there with trust when you are experiencing? .......and why must this experience stop?* Perhaps it is because people cling too closely to their belief in the experience (perceptions/thoughts... of yesterday) which is triggered and perpetuated by their desire for more, they miss the experience happening within the moment which requires no trust or belief for it is. *"curiosity of this experience" implying reflection of past event. ------------------------------------------------------------- yeah, I get what your saying man :yes:Yeah right, thats a good argument nice one, again, its meaning is only that which the subject desires to project to the audiance. Belief is not about the subject to which it refers but the desire of the experiencer to project their understanding. If they believed what they understand then they would not need to say they did because they have faith that it is true. On the argument of using it as a tool to communicate to others that they are open minded enough not to state what they understand of their experience as the experience itself which would be inaccurate, to gain validation of their point, why do they bind themselves to their understanding of it (belief) in the first place when they are aware that it is not the experience itself/reality? Memory never recaptures reality. Memory reconstructs. All reconstructions change the original, becoming external frames of reference that inevitably fall short. Mentat Handbook Heretics of Dune That which we believe can never be reality. ------------------------------------------------------------- Its been a few years...BAH! go on then! Thanks man, thats sweet ...hmmm, well, if ya wanna play that game I double dare you to ask your self who it is that believes in God? I tripple dare you to then ask your self....What is the ultimate source of my answer? I quadruple dare you to then ask your self....Who am i? ------------------------------------------------------------- yeah, the full statement was..."belief and faith are meaningless....in the eyes of God etc" yeahhh... We express what we believe to be so, to validate our perceptions in the face of disreguard, and perhaps in turn this politely disreguards the beliefs of others. But if we believe our beliefs, why do we need to validate our understandings and learning by using the word? ...communication....Why do we communicate?....As a means to engage all our desires whether they be altruistic or selfish, so belief is spawned by a desire. WOW cheers for all your posts guys...LOVE IIIIT!!! NICE ONE! nn23 Wow what a post. I the level of comprehension you are on. Glad to see you've searched through the dune quote site. You are so beautiful. I love the way your mind works. You really slap people in the face with your outright over-ruling logic. I get all giddy when I read posts from people like you because it helps shape things I already know but couldn't clarify in an articulate matter. You understand that all reality is imagination and that people are caught in the illuson of believing that one set of imagination pattern (scientific observable world) is more real than the other patterns of imagination i.e dream state, daydream state etc.... They are all as real as each other and those who say one is actually more real only say so because they believe via conditioning to be so. Most people can't to terms with this and so find it even harder to comprehend the reality behind the painting of thoughts you are trying to indicate. Your intellect isn't too sharp and so you havnt cut up your perception of reality into too many separate things......it is a blessing beause you havnt made your intuition bleed for the sake of academia. I recognize you as a free mind and I havnt come across many on unexplained mysteries. Im so glad you are back. On another note I found this quote in one of Frank Herbert's books. You wont find it on that site. It speaks a profound truth about the true purpose of religion which I know you and maybe six others on unexplained mysteries will understand. Anyway here it is.: 'Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, " I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.' --- Touro Bomoko's dying words Edited June 23, 2007 by brave_new_world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #64 Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) BRRRILLIANT!!! i LOVE that BG quote you gave me, thanks Brave, it communicates its message so simply and i do not disagree with it, but my original statement still holds...Belief and Faith are meaningless in the eyes of God etc. When something is self evident, belief surely is simply a word to communicate what you in yourself "are" to others, because others see themselves as a seperate "are" and so by comparison to you, an "are not" dualism . I agree with you. Actually, that BG quote is a beautiful example. When you look at the statement from the view of belief simply as a word (linguistically speaking) that serves to validate the subject of its reference, it isnt really trying to put forward a message about belief but about the limitlessness of being, "so he is", which paves the way for realisation. People who live their lives fixed to the bindings of duality can not comprehend this and anything man can not comprehend he deems as "disproven" or impossible, so "belief" in this case is used as a tool to communicate the limitlessness of self without alienating the audiance....But if the purpose was a guide to self realisation or "enlightenment" then once one recognises God then belief or faith serve no purpose for God is self evident. It is then only required as a linguistic tool to communicate this to others who remain in duality. My beef is that many internalise what they believe, not as the dualistic tool of communication which it is, but as the actuality of the subject to which they refer it. In this manner it is internalised as a "belief in" rather than the actual subject itself, and whilst being a guide it can also be a limitation or veil upon the actual subject of its reference... reality Very well said. I know where you are coming from one hundred percent. However this state beyond duality even though is the real state of all things is very difficult to attain (I know you cant attain it because there is nothing to attain because it is eternally what it is), take this quote from Sri RamaKrishna (Allah bless him): As long as the I-sense lasts, so long are true knowledge (jnana) and liberation (mukti) impossible. How very few can obtain this union (samadhi) and free themselves from this 'I'? It is very possible. Talk as much as you want, isolate yourself continuously, still this 'I' will always return to you. Cut down the poplar tree today, and you will find tomorrow it forms new shoots. When you ultimately find that this 'I' cannot be destroyed, let it remain as 'I' the servant. Hence I pray to a personal God even though I know God transcends all forms. I still agree with you though but do you know where Im coming from? Me mastering philosophic concepts has not gained me liberation (as you already know). Here is a quote from Kahlil Gibran to show you what I mean: We are all prisoners , but some of us are in cells with windows and some without. You definately have a window Yet at the same time this quote contradicts because what you and me try and indicate to others is our nature which is at all times eternal and infinity. We both know that to ask the very question "How did the infinite become finite" is a contradiction to the infinite: ..To ask this question we have to suppose that the Absolute also is bound by something, that it is dependent on something. Thus we see that the very question as to why the Infinite became the finite is an absurd one, for it is self-contradictory. (Vivekananda, Collinson, Plant and Wilkinson, 2000. p143) Hence we get into an intellectual paradox which we must believe in until we are free from the intellectual paradox we know to be true and experience it as it is, which isnt a paradox because it is Truth itself. Most discipline is hidden discipline, designed not to liberate but to limit. Do not ask "Why?" Be cautious with "How?" "Why?" leads inexorably to paradox. "How?" traps you in a universe of cause and effect. Both deny the infinite. The Apocrypha of Arrakis I love you "I believe"...where is the reality in that statement, in what it presents or where it comes from? ....and if so, why place reality into the binds of the dualistic certainty* of belief...it maybe a guide for some but also a bind for many others... Some people spend their whole lives being guided as though the source of their belief is a destination, or something to be get...duality, agAIN! Ya. I know When i wrote that (There is no action in Belief or Faith, they are simply a justification for thoughts.) i was thinking in the context of that Ramana quote you gave me.....Everything is predetermined. But one is always free not to identify oneself with the body and not to be affected by the pleasure and pain associated with its activities. So so much easier said than done.......but you articulate your points so well that I am surprised more people cant understand the concept of what you are explaining (the concept that Truth lies beyond concept that is). When he says "with the body" he is refering to all thought, justifications influence, it could even be said that influence is nearly always the ego and desire and perhaps this is where belief can only take you so far. Our beliefs/desires from the conscious and unconscious heavily influence what we do.........what many dont understand is that our beliefs/desires create justifications (holy or unholy) to perpetuate their existence. We can with our illusory free will break this bond at any time. Hahahahaha we create/assimilate beliefs to maintain our beliefs! It is forged by a desire for the subject of belief to be truth. It serves a purpose for sure, but as BG also states desire can only lead to sorrow, the poisened apple. Identifying with the source rather than the percieved does not require belief for it is self evident therefore... We express ourselves on forums like unexplained mysteries. HA HAAA, I've TOTALLY Moydered ... NICE ONE! nn23 *and therefore uncertainty Your chatter is stimulating. Had to change some grammar errors Edited June 23, 2007 by brave_new_world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #65 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Also mentioned in the OT: "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he," (Proverbs 23:7) I love this quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 23, 2007 #66 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Nn23, as to ur coment: " Thanks man, thats sweet ...hmmm, well, if ya wanna play that game I double dare you to ask your self who it is that believes in God? I tripple dare you to then ask your self....What is the ultimate source of my answer? I quadruple dare you to then ask your self....Who am i?" I'm not sure of the point ur trying to make. These all seem like senseless questions. Instead of questioning and avoiding my statement, why don't u accept the challenge. Maybe it's because ur to afraid that the results will destroy your own fabricated world of supposedly intellectual bliss! You only prove your point by running circles....no destination is ever reached. You confront any argument with complicated messes of question and statement which are trully meaningless. As to my previous responses, I do believe i have failed to fully answer your initial comment. U didn't just say that belief and faith don't matter, but that they don't matter to God (and many others, but I only confront this one), when, if only you were to know Him and possibly the words which describe Him and guide those who kno the TRUTH of Him, u would discover that to God it's these two key elements that define everything: you immediate life and your after life. For without Belief and Faith in Him and His Son's gift of salvation (which by these are excepted), your eternity only exists for torment and agony in Hell (if i may be so bold). You keep referencing that belief and faith cannot be based upon truth, reality, and experience which is an illegitamate argument. Furthermore, i finish in saying that my experice doesn't stop.....it continues on in each moment of my life. Maybe your interpretation comes from not having found this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #67 Share Posted June 23, 2007 You keep referencing that belief and faith cannot be based upon truth, reality, and experience which is an illegitamate argument. If you know God exists then why do you need to believe it or have faith? "The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it." ---Carl Jung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiTino Posted June 23, 2007 Author #68 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Wow what a post. I the level of comprehension you are on. Glad to see you've searched through the dune quote site. You are so beautiful. I love the way your mind works. You really slap people in the face with your outright over-ruling logic. I get all giddy when I read posts from people like you because it helps shape things I already know but couldn't clarify in an articulate matter. You understand that all reality is imagination and that people are caught in the illuson of believing that one set of imagination pattern (scientific observable world) is more real than the other patterns of imagination i.e dream state, daydream state etc.... They are all as real as each other and those who say one is actually more real only say so because they believe via conditioning to be so. Most people can't to terms with this and so find it even harder to comprehend the reality behind the painting of thoughts you are trying to indicate. Your intellect isn't too sharp and so you havnt cut up your perception of reality into too many separate things......it is a blessing beause you havnt made your intuition bleed for the sake of academia. I recognize you as a free mind and I havnt come across many on unexplained mysteries. Im so glad you are back. On another note I found this quote in one of Frank Herbert's books. You wont find it on that site. It speaks a profound truth about the true purpose of religion which I know you and maybe six others on unexplained mysteries will understand. Anyway here it is.: 'Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, " I am not the kind of person I want to be." It must never sink into an assemblage of the self-satisfied.' --- Touro Bomoko's dying words mATE! yer gona give me a Kundalini But seriously, you should know that i get the same buzz off you mate. I actually feel thankful to have found people, yourself SPECIFICALLY included who i can connect my thoughts with, thats what it feels like for me. You have written many posts that have rocked my world dude. That quote is WICKED man cheers, self satisfaction would be religions downfall, how ironic....That "religion has eaten many a society from within" quote from Dune ( not the exact wording btw but you know the one ) follows on nicely dun it Didnt say none of my nice **** to "repay" for yours btw, i mean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 23, 2007 #69 Share Posted June 23, 2007 If you know God exists then why do you need to believe it or have faith? "The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it." ---Carl Jung Believing is more of delving into what u know, not questioning it or standing on an uncertain principle. Faith is more of a relational basis with God....it's u and Him. It is also more meant as trust....the two biblically speaking are interchangeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #70 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Believing is more of delving into what u know, not questioning it or standing on an uncertain principle. Then you dont believe it but know it. To say I believe is to say "I think though I could be wrong that...." if you know it you say "I know....." Faith is more of a relational basis with God....it's u and Him. It is also more meant as trust....the two biblically speaking are interchangeable. Faith is what we have until we experience what it is we had faith in. From that point it isn't faith but knowledge you know to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 23, 2007 #71 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Then you dont believe it but know it. To say I believe is to say "I think though I could be wrong that...." if you know it you say "I know....." Faith is what we have until we experience what it is we had faith in. From that point it isn't faith but knowledge you know to be true. Definition of believe: "to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to." In other words, KNOW. It's in the dictionary. Also from a BIBLICAL definition using the definitions of the original Greek and Hebrew : "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust." Also point to KNOW and LIVE OUT, not place on something unsure. Definition of faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing" - also not of question. Biblical def.: "emunah - certainty" Also, take into context within it's scriptural basis and u will see my prvious points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #72 Share Posted June 23, 2007 (edited) Definition of believe: "to have confidence or faith in the truth of (a positive assertion, story, etc.); give credence to." To have confidence or give credence to isnt to know. I may have faith and confidence that a theory may be true but that doesnt mean I know. In other words, KNOW. It's in the dictionary. Also from a BIBLICAL definition using the definitions of the original Greek and Hebrew : "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust." Also point to KNOW and LIVE OUT, not place on something unsure. Main Entry: know Part of Speech: verb 1 Definition: understand Synonyms: apperceive, appreciate, apprehend, be acquainted, be cognizant, be informed, be learned, be read, be schooled, be versed, cognize, comprehend, differentiate, discern, discriminate, distinguish, experience, fathom, feel certain, grasp, have, have information, ken, learn, notice, perceive, prize, realize, recognize, see, undergo http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/know Where is belief or faith in this list? Definition of faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing" - also not of question. Biblical def.: "emunah - certainty" Also, take into context within it's scriptural basis and u will see my prvious points Having confidence doesnt mean to know. To know doesnt require confidence because you know.Also trust isnt to know either, trust is to take a risk out of confidence. If you know then you didnt trust because you knew in the first place there was no risk. Edited June 23, 2007 by brave_new_world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brave_new_world Posted June 23, 2007 #73 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Main Entry: know Part of Speech: verb 1 Definition: understand Synonyms: apperceive, appreciate, apprehend, be acquainted, be cognizant, be informed, be learned, be read, be schooled, be versed, cognize, comprehend, differentiate, discern, discriminate, distinguish, experience, fathom, feel certain, grasp, have, have information, ken, learn, notice, perceive, prize, realize, recognize, see, undergo Even this list contradicts what I am saying. To know isnt to 'feel certain' either. When you know you know. Language is so subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 23, 2007 #74 Share Posted June 23, 2007 To have confidence or give credence to isnt to know. I may have faith and confidence that a theory may be true but that doesnt mean I know. Main Entry: know Part of Speech: verb 1 Definition: understand Synonyms: apperceive, appreciate, apprehend, be acquainted, be cognizant, be informed, be learned, be read, be schooled, be versed, cognize, comprehend, differentiate, discern, discriminate, distinguish, experience, fathom, feel certain, grasp, have, have information, ken, learn, notice, perceive, prize, realize, recognize, see, undergo http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/know Where is belief or faith in this list? Having confidence doesnt mean to know. To know doesnt require confidence because you know.Also trust isnt to know either, trust is to take a risk out of confidence. If you know then you didnt trust because you knew in the first place there was no risk. I have to say, that is a nice counter. I'm kinda enjoying this. but, I believe you did miss one part in the def. of belief: "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust i will continue to search for my support. Nice Job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBoneMinister Posted June 23, 2007 #75 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I have to say, that is a nice counter. I'm kinda enjoying this. but, I believe you did miss one part in the def. of belief: "aman -To be firm, endure, be true, stand fast, trust i will continue to search for my support. Nice Job Also to say that the definition of certainty is "something certain; an assured fact" - the very things knowlege are based upon, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now