Belief and Faith are meaningless....

[dlv]

it gave the slight impression that it bothered you....

...botheredness, and i was sorry that you saw it this way.

Nn23, I hardly use that word in my vocabulary, "bothered." It's only clear to me that you're the one who's "bothered" with my posts since you used this word often enough. I don't even give useless, tired theories about ancient knowledge a second thought once they're out of my system completely. But when people try to shove their theories down my throat, then I "defend" myself. That, my dear, is hardly "bothered." "Defend" and "bothered" are completely two separate words. Besides, I have better things to do than to waste my time on useless, archaic nonsense.

If there are truths to some of the ancient knowledge, then I'm sure, the Holy Spirit will see to it to inform and guide me, first hand.

Yeah, well, i reckon all desires are a bite from the Apple.

I don't believe in that fairytale.

But those, like myself who do not choose to idolise those that they learn their lessons from...

Oh, you could've fooled me. I will admit, however, that you are pretentious, "and that's okay."

it can be seen that other people can be selective also...

I ... find them a to be a little judgmental,

There are many things and situations we will never agree on..., and just go in circles. And I'm sure, God will find the way to enlighten us.

The thing is: We, all of us, are always being selective, except you of course. And yes, as long as we live in this world, we will always judge our actions, and this includes others' actions. I have no problem with judging, at least I'm not pretentious enough not to cop to it, unlike other people like yourself. If you find my posts judgmental, then they are. So what, what's new??? Some people may want to waterdown the word by using "assessment" to replace it, but that sounds so chicken sh#+, and alas, it sounds so PC and phony, and it all ends up the same anyway. Then again, we, all of us (excluding you of course), judge those who cross our path, always. Some people are smart enough to do so. It's just a fact of living... Just because I designated myself a Christian, it doesn't mean that I'm above judging things and situations. It's inevitable, even Jesus got judged...; therefore, Jesus judged others at one time, perhaps? Everytime you're awake, even in sleep, you judge.

"Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged." Yes, but "I'm only human," I'm not a God, unlike nn23.

"And I believe that everyone should do the same, be really honest to oneself. Then again, I don't care about forcing others to my belief system..." I'm merely sharing my belief system, especially since I was asked, let's not forget. And frankly nn23, I find your posts very shallow, as in lacking realtime experience, perhaps due to your (younger) age, at least you come across as being "naive-as-if" to me. Very pretentious, to that effect. And of course, I know that I could also be very wrong to make this judgement. Again, "I'm not perfect, I'm merely human," so they say.

BUT, live in the "real" world, nn23, get married (and make it really work), have a good life..., pay your bills..., perhaps then, we'll have somethings to talk about, perhaps then, you may even add a weight to your "voice." To me, at the moment, everything that comes out of you is a bunch of empty theories, empty in the sense that you're merely writing what others have told you or read -- a copycat. No backbone, whatsoever, merely bookworm knowledge. I could only pray for you, that the Universe deepens your spiritual adventure, especially since you asked for it.

The thing is: For me to get into the person, there must be an ounce of respect. With you, I feel like I'm writing to a spoiled kid.

A new reality is coming to you, nn23, get ready.

[dlv]

"Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:6

I edited out the ones I deemed to be man-made, uninspired. I have that choice, let's not forget. And the Bible was written by human beings.

To edit out is not the same as adding...

Edited July 9, 2007 by dlv

[theprotecter23]

...in the eyes of God, Truth or whatever it is you refer it too.

Hellooooooooooooo,

Ok, just wanna throw this one in, these are my thoughts on the matter.

Belief and Faith are a tool to allow polite disreguard in discussion.....ignorance.

Belief and Faith are manefestations of the ego to give validation (when someone desires their point to be validated) to something that doesnt make sense in someone elses belief system (ego manefestation).

The context of Belief and Faith contradicts their purpose. Does God require people to believe in "him"? Surely Belief is only required when people have not had direct experience of something, yet there are so many people who claim that what they have faith in is therefore the "truth".

hmmm, there we go, what are your thoughts?

nn23

just to tell u, ppl get offended because of wat u stated. i get y u dont believe, and y u think faith is meaningless, but i was told that God wanted us to hav faith in Him, to trust Him, but yet he did not force us to. If u dont want to, fine. But alot of ppl do. I dont want u to think im trying to preach you into believing, but if u refer MILLIONS of ppl as "ignorant", then ok, yea sure.

[dlv]

Jesus scolded the Pharisees for worshiping their alter rather than God himself...the Pharisees were finantially minded, but it was not this that Jesus had a problem, for he did not even scold the tax collectors as much as they, it was simply that they replaced God with their scribes and teachings and traditions...

"Do not add to His words Lest He reprove you, and you be proved a liar." Proverbs 30:6

We will never know the exact, true story..., what's on Jesus' mind, even though you try to twist it to fit your mere POINT OF VIEW. What we do get is other people's versions, interpretations of that story, exactly like yours. Again, don't just copy what books tell you.

perhaps unintentionally by attributing your experiences to Christianity rather than God you are doing the same?

Never make the assumption that my brand of Christianity is superficial, even though you try to pose this as a question -- then again, I'm not surprise... Again, a new reality is coming your way... We'll see what you're really made of, even if you think you're a god.

See you in Heaven, one day.

Edited July 9, 2007 by dlv

[dlv]

"And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, in order that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Deut.4:1,2

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." Rev.22:18,19

Well, Deuteronomy was enterpreted by Moses, a human being, who was trying to keep his tribe together -- go figure. John (Apocalypse of John) is not even an apostle. I don't include this fantasy (book) in my belief system. Again, just because I'm a Christian, I am not obligated to follow everything that's written in the Bible. Never compare my brand of Christianity to others. That guilt trip is old skool, baby. 21st Century is a new era for me, my NEW found belief in this modern Christianity.

[MaiTino]

Nn23, I hardly use that word in my vocabulary, "bothered." It's only clear to me that you're the one who's "bothered" with my posts since you used this word often enough. I don't even give useless, tired theories about ancient knowledge a second thought once they're out of my system completely. But when people try to shove their theories down my throat, then I "defend" myself. That, my dear, is hardly "bothered." "Defend" and "bothered" are completely two separate words. Besides, I have better things to do than to waste my time on useless, archaic nonsense.

If there are truths to some of the ancient knowledge, then I'm sure, the Holy Spirit will see to it to inform and guide me, first hand.

I don't believe in that fairytale.

Oh, you could've fooled me. I will admit, however, that you are pretentious, "and that's okay."

There are many things and situations we will never agree on..., and just go in circles. And I'm sure, God will find the way to enlighten us.

The thing is: We, all of us, are always being selective, except you of course. And yes, as long as we live in this world, we will always judge our actions, and this includes others' actions. I have no problem with judging, at least I'm not pretentious enough not to cop to it, unlike other people like yourself. If you find my posts judgmental, then they are. So what, what's new??? Some people may want to waterdown the word by using "assessment" to replace it, but that sounds so chicken sh#+, and alas, it sounds so PC and phony, and it all ends up the same anyway. Then again, we, all of us (excluding you of course), judge those who cross our path, always. Some people are smart enough to do so. It's just a fact of living... Just because I designated myself a Christian, it doesn't mean that I'm above judging things and situations. It's inevitable, even Jesus got judged...; therefore, Jesus judged others at one time, perhaps? Everytime you're awake, even in sleep, you judge.

"Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged." Yes, but "I'm only human," I'm not a God, unlike nn23.

"And I believe that everyone should do the same, be really honest to oneself. Then again, I don't care about forcing others to my belief system..." I'm merely sharing my belief system, especially since I was asked, let's not forget. And frankly nn23, I find your posts very shallow, as in lacking realtime experience, perhaps due to your (younger) age, at least you come across as being "naive-as-if" to me. Very pretentious, to that effect. And of course, I know that I could also be very wrong to make this judgement. Again, "I'm not perfect, I'm merely human," so they say.

BUT, live in the "real" world, nn23, get married (and make it really work), have a good life..., pay your bills..., perhaps then, we'll have somethings to talk about, perhaps then, you may even add a weight to your "voice." To me, at the moment, everything that comes out of you is a bunch of empty theories, empty in the sense that you're merely writing what others have told you or read -- a copycat. No backbone, whatsoever, merely bookworm knowledge. I could only pray for you, that the Universe deepens your spiritual adventure, especially since you asked for it.

The thing is: For me to get into the person, there must be an ounce of respect. With you, I feel like I'm writing to a spoiled kid.

A new reality is coming to you, nn23, get ready.

We will never know the exact, true story..., what's on Jesus' mind, even though you try to twist it to fit your mere POINT OF VIEW. What we do get is other people's versions, interpretations of that story, exactly like yours. Again, don't just copy what books tell you.

Never make the assumption that my brand of Christianity is superficial, even though you try to pose this as a question -- then again, I'm not surprise... Again, a new reality is coming your way... We'll see what you're really made of, even if you think you're a god.

See you in Heaven, one day.

Well, i thought we had talked about this already...

You have to fill in my new found respect for Jesus Christ, that I'm a Christian again, my brand, a very selective brand, but a Christian nonetheless. And this only took place recently, through God's grace, I believe(!).

"I may have said that I divorced myself from Christianity at one time. BUT, my life, my pilgrimage," has led me into full circle.

Again, since I'm on Earth with a very limited mental capacity, I will select. I will follow my gut instinct, and hopefully, the Holy Spirit is guiding me along the way.

Again, you assume you are a god already

..."a" God? no...it is not as clear cut as that and at the same time, it is SO clear cut it is inaudible really. God exists within everything, therefore everything is God. There is no "a" because this divides that which is infinate, God. God is that which is beyond the primal seed, the source. Everything there is comes as a result of God, and therefore i choose to identify with my Self (God) rather than my thoughts and senses, i follow these back to whense they came, because this is where there is eternal love....God.

Well, Deuteronomy was enterpreted by Moses, a human being, who was trying to keep his tribe together -- go figure. John (Apocalypse of John) is not even an apostle. I don't include this fantasy (book) in my belief system. Again, just because I'm a Christian, I am not obligated to follow everything that's written in the Bible. Never compare my brand of Christianity to others. That guilt trip is old skool, baby. 21st Century is a new era for me, my NEW found belief in this modern Christianity.

BLIMEY!

Hi dlv, these posts do project that you are offended by me in some way. Even if you are not, this is what they project, regardless, and i suppose it makes no difference what i say now if you view me as pretentious. But i never would want to cause offense to such an extent for you to respond in such a personal way, making references to my personal life that i have not offered to discuss. I usually find your enthusiasm in your posts extremely exciting and it has been a real pleasure for me to see all the transitions you have been through since joining UM. If you feel my behaviour innapropriate or have a problem with one of my responses or want to talk about how i pay my bills, please PM me, and we can work it out together. I think it would be much safer for you to do this than post your judgments in the forum.

Welcome all the lord's followers, even those whose faith is weak. Don't criticise them for having beliefs that are different from yours. ---Romans 14:1

Namaste

nn23

[MaiTino]

just to tell u, ppl get offended because of wat u stated. i get y u dont believe, and y u think faith is meaningless, but i was told that God wanted us to hav faith in Him, to trust Him, but yet he did not force us to. If u dont want to, fine. But alot of ppl do. I dont want u to think im trying to preach you into believing, but if u refer MILLIONS of ppl as "ignorant", then ok, yea sure.

Hey theprotecter23,

Its up to the individual whether they choose to take offense or not. Perhaps you should read the whole debate before making judgments as to the nature of my beliefs. The original post was simply the books cover, there are some people within the forum who chose to explore my thoughts through discussion.

I make no judgments as to the state of ignorance within my original post, it is something that we all experience.

NICE ONE

nn23

[dlv]

Well, i thought we had talked about this already...

BLIMEY!

Hi dlv, these posts do project that you are offended by me in some way. Even if you are not, this is what they project, regardless, and i suppose it makes no difference what i say now if you view me as pretentious. But i never would want to cause offense to such an extent for you to respond in such a personal way, making references to my personal life that i have not offered to discuss. I usually find your enthusiasm in your posts extremely exciting and it has been a real pleasure for me to see all the transitions you have been through since joining UM. If you feel my behaviour innapropriate or have a problem with one of my responses or want to talk about how i pay my bills, please PM me, and we can work it out together. I think it would be much safer for you to do this than post your judgments in the forum.

Welcome all the lord's followers, even those whose faith is weak. Don't criticise them for having beliefs that are different from yours. ---Romans 14:1

Namaste

nn23

Annoyed is the exact word, nn23, mostly because I don't even get a kiss on the cheek by you working me so hard. I come back from my party weekend and boom, what do I get from you??? Laser beams, NOT moonbeams. If you only know my life... BUT, that's good, though: you really do make me dig deep inside, and I'm very grateful -- a passing annoyance, but blessed that I came across you. It must be that "blimey" that gets me going..., it's sexy, I must admit.

Much love,

DLV

Edited July 9, 2007 by dlv

[kobie]

Hold on tightly to your belief system, for you may be right. But, I was wondering: Why are your relatives not at rest (for them wandering on Earth)? That, my friend, is also something to think about. In my belief system, there is a concept called Eternal Rest. Nirvana is perhaps a close call to it, but one could never be sure, especially since it sounds so foreign and the basic meaning has been obscured by the media and fashion mongers. Regardless, I hold dearly to this promise of Eternal Rest, one day. And alas, one could only assume that "life doesnt stop and start..its a continuum, a paradoxical flow of energy, everything is energy and its always changing adapting and growing..."

Assumption, I'm sure you know, is never absolute fact.

But, please don't see this as a judgment since I'm merely sharing my 'map' (a guideline to find my freedom). What do I know, in the end??? I'm still here on Earth myself; however, I have my hopes, meditation technique, prayers for the best outcomes, and the Holy Spirit to guide me. Having God and the bright sun of God, Jesus, on my side are but a boon to my life, no doubt. I could only go by the good things in my life to know I'm heading to the right direction, especially since I look out for signs and wonders, avidly.

Peace to you.

thank you for being so polite and un forcefal with your views...just to refer to the quote you stated, my relatives are not in a dilemma or stuck by some form of trouble or restlessness...there merely checking up on me and the rest of the family to just see how things are...there not grounded by anymeans....yes ive read about nivarna..i no where your coming from....nirvaner to the already fortunate passed on people, create there own nirvaner when they need to rest, there true nirvana is them selfs on the consciousness emotional state...this is why wen you pass on if your in troubled emotional state in a severe high way..ie..been murderd..etc theres a 5% percent chance you'l ethier A.ground your self on purpose or emotionally ground yer self into a state of lostness and reprieve, most of the time a family member will ultimately collect u and show you the ropes in such...but this still wont stop you from making decisions and choice through anger and revenge and justice!, if you felt you unjustly passed on from a certain misgiving matter...

[dlv]

thank you for being so polite and un forcefal with your views...just to refer to the quote you stated, my relatives are not in a dilemma or stuck by some form of trouble or restlessness...there merely checking up on me and the rest of the family to just see how things are...there not grounded by anymeans....yes ive read about nivarna..i no where your coming from....nirvaner to the already fortunate passed on people, create there own nirvaner when they need to rest, there true nirvana is them selfs on the consciousness emotional state...this is why wen you pass on if your in troubled emotional state in a severe high way..ie..been murderd..etc theres a 5% percent chance you'l ethier A.ground your self on purpose or emotionally ground yer self into a state of lostness and reprieve, most of the time a family member will ultimately collect u and show you the ropes in such...but this still wont stop you from making decisions and choice through anger and revenge and justice!, if you felt you unjustly passed on from a certain misgiving matter...

I understand your point because when my mom died, she visited me, and dreamnt about her on several occasions, especially during her birthday and the anniversary of her death..., even if she's a very faithful Christian woman. I don't think she was stuck, nor was she a restless soul, just like your relations. I, for one, would tell you that I don't know the totality of the afterlife, even if I've done quite a bit of "research" on this matter... On the other hand, I was taught early on that I could only gain my salvation through Jesus Christ, get my Eteranl Rest..., and the older I get, the more and more I believe this to be the case. My many experiences only point toward this conviction, "salvation through our Lord Jesus," and this time around I want to find out where this being "reborn" leads me -- there must be a reason why I was baptist a Christian when I was baby and be born in a very devout Christian family (to begin with). "It's meant to be," so to speak. It's my inheritance, kind of thing. As always, I could only speak for myself on this belief system.

Again, hold on to your belief system, especially since it gives you comfort and strength.

[She-ra]

I know God. Very cool indeed Jody

[MaiTino]

i dont follow your normal religions as in such...i have my own understandments to the purpose of what life is....its balance and structure....it doens't mean i pray to a god...but im cautious in wot are do in my life..wot i wish for or insight onto others....i believe if thats the word..as if i stated 'know' then i would be attacked buy everyone...lol..., that i must be careful as my passed family members will give me a good wiping and look bad to me if i do something or in general be a prick for no reasoning at all or hurt someone...as well as the karmic universal law as a balance structure of 3 which is negative neutral/balance and positive...all of which co exist and counter balance each other wen weighted etc etc....its also to my attention that other religions should only be striving for the good of things as any other real spiritualist knowledge would be limited to cultural views on that belief..thus its self contained and caped.

as well as from a physiological veiw from wot i understand someone can abuse there situation/or position/or thing..which then becomes an adaptation then a habit...this is structulised to nearly everything we no...from eating, to smoking drinking hobbies sexual desires work, and yes even delving into something with a single viewed perception like phycology, too much can blind you and lead you into false waters...i agree with you aswell with your statement yes yes it can bee because of that BUT it doesnt give you the definitive answer and reason to it, yes its a small perceptive and focalised view and understandment of something that is and much more...remember that most religions are just a system of cultralised adaptations and a form of structure to systematize a light form of order and control as well as incorporating a spiritual reprieve and sanctuary

Hey Kobie, nice reply you have a very interesting outlook.

I did not have much understandment of what it is that you meant in the highlight...what statement was it that you agreed with? What doesnt give me the definitive answer and reason? he he he...i am intrigued

I think that many people follow their "belief" rather than the source to which they refer it.

[MaiTino]

Annoyed is the exact word, nn23, mostly because I don't even get a kiss on the cheek by you working me so hard. I come back from my party weekend and boom, what do I get from you??? Laser beams, NOT moonbeams. If you only know my life... BUT, that's good, though: you really do make me dig deep inside, and I'm very grateful -- a passing annoyance, but blessed that I came across you. It must be that "blimey" that gets me going..., it's sexy, I must admit.

Much love,

DLV

HA HA HA Oh dlv, you flatter me

Yes, we've had some good ones havnt we sweet

Nx