Erakles and Jesus

June 26, 2007

Many people believe that because Jesus has been written about and spoken about so much for the last 2 millennia that he actually lived. Many doubt that followers of Jesus would lay down their lives for their beliefs if Jesus was just a myth, that a myth could not create such ardor and devotion. Surely then, Jesus must have lived, taught and died, just as the gospels say!

If you examine the evidence for Erakles (Hercules to us) of Greek mythology, the parallels with the myth of Jesus is astounding. Just as Jesus was born from the “union” of the Holy Ghost and the mortal and virgin Mary, So Erakles was born of the union of Zeus and the mortal and chaste Alcmene. Just as Hera wanted to kill Erakles, so Herod wanted to kill Jesus. Just as Jesus traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performing miracles, so did Erakles. Just as Jesus died and rose to heaven, Erakles died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. The ancients believed that Erakles actually lived, told stories of him, worshipped him and dedicated temples to him, just as Christians believe Jesus actually lived, have stories of him, worship him and dedicate churches and cathedrals to him.

When the “evidence” for Erakles is closely examined, the parallels with that of Jesus is astoundingly similar. Just as the gospels tell the story of Jesus, many of the ancient “notables” told the story of Erakles. Homer told epic stories of the life of Erakles. Aesop told stories of Erakles and quoted his words. Josephus, that darling/nemesis of Christian apologists, mentions Jesus once (if you accept the Testimonium Flavianium as factual) in his “Antiquities” and mentions Erakles three times (1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Tacitus mentions Jesus once but mentions Erakles many times in his Annals.

Just as we have no artifacts, writings (by Jesus) or eyewitnesses of Jesus, we have nothing for Erakles. ALL information about Jesus and Erakles comes from stories, beliefs and hearsay! So, should we believe in either Erakles or Jesus just because non-contemporary story tellers and historians mention them and that many people either believe or have believed in them?

For those that doubt a “historical” Jesus could develop from myth, that believe there is no precedence for this, we but have to look at the myths of ancient religions.. Greek and Roman writers such as Diodorus, Cicero, Livy and others took it on faith that historical roots existed for Erakles, Theseus, Odysseus, Minos, Dionysus and others. And just as the Christian monk Dionysius Exiguus (aka Dennis the Little) in the 6th century CE attempted to put a date to Jesus, the “Father of History”, Herodotus tried to (quite unsuccessfully) determine when Erakles lived.

Today, people consider Erakles and other Greek gods to be naught more than the myths of a barbarian civilization because when a civilization dies – so do their Gods. In the case of the Classical Greek gods and goddesses, many of their adherents were dragged kicking and screaming from their pagan temples to the churches of the nascent Christianity, as evidenced by the following timeline: (Timeline courtesy of K. Humphreys)

314 Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.” Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus. (See Christianity isn’t the only religion that can claim martyrdom).

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists” (read pagans for Hellenists). Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”.

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia – western Asia Minor) orders that religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday. Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term “pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter." The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' (thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples. In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis. (Death Camps seem to be a common Christian theme)

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turning the temple of Dionysius into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the gentiles” (gentilicia superstitio). New full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop “Saint” Epiphanius and “Saint” Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’s edict declares:

“The ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island.”

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”. The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397 “Demolish them!” Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

399 With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished. 400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the non-Christians of this area.

401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys temples and “idols”. In Gaza too, the local bishop “Saint” Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch pagans and to demolish the remaining nine still active temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalcedon orders all the Christians that still keep good relations with their non-Christian relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of grey-dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the “idols” in all the cities of Palestine.

406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic temples. In Ephesus he orders the destruction of the famous temple of Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, “Saints” Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the pagans and the total destruction of their temples and sanctuaries.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the pagans are also persecuted. “Saint” Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be punished by death.

415 In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. Emperor Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias “The Sword of God”, exterminates the last pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423 Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the pagans is nothing more than “demon worship” and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429 The temple of goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

431 Council of Ephesus ("Robber Synod"). Promotion for the godman – "Christ is complete God and complete man."

435 On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all “heretics” and pagans of the empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-Christian religion.

438 Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the pagans, incriminating their “idolatry” as the reason of a recent plague!

440 to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities. 448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

450 All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451 Council of Chalcedon. New edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that “idolatry” is punished by death. Assertion of orthodox doctrine over the 'Monophysites' – 'JC has single, divine nature.'

457 to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488 The majority of the pagans of Minor Asia are exterminated after a desperate revolt against the emperor and the Church.

486 More “underground” pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

515 Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that already say they are Christians. The emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius, orders the massacre of the pagans in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the temple of local god Theandrites

523 Emperor Justin I outlaws the Arian heresy and campaigns to suppress Arianism everywhere.

528 Emperor Justinian outlaws the “alternative” Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution—by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails—of all who practice “sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry” and prohibits all teachings by the pagans (“the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes”).

529 Justinian outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

532 The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the pagans of Minor Asia.

542 Justinian allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to forcibly convert the pagans of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished pagan temples. 546 Hundreds of pagans are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

556 Justinian orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last non-Christians of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

562 Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582 The Christians torture and crucify Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last non-Christians of Heliopolis (Baalbek).

580 The Christian inquisitors attack a secret temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the rest of the pagans are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583 New persecutions against the gentile Hellenes by Emperor Maurice.

590 In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers “discover” pagan conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.

Currently, Christianity still exerts a powerful influence on a good part of the industrialized world, so that skeptics have to be careful of “insulting” the so-called Christian majority with assertions that Jesus never existed. Christianity depends on the existence of a historical Jesus and will defend even the most unreliable sources at all costs. The faithful want to believe and we are told by so many Christian theologians and historical experts that Jesus did indeed exist, all the while ignoring the total lack of any evidence - be it contemporary mention in ancient documents or physical evidence obtained through archaeological discovery. If a scholar makes a historical claim, his assertion should depend on the evidence presented and not his standing in this scholastic or theological field. Belief/mythology can exist without evidence, but facts depend on evidence and facts are the name of the game in historical research. :yes:

June 26, 2007

Leave it to Mako! What I think is missed, often times enough in such assertions as jesus did exist, is there is a vast difference between biblical evidence and independent historical record. And as you said, there is no historical evidence of a real jesus. Not even within the Roman archival history, wherein his execution would certainly have been recorded,much less his trial. But nothing, thus far, has ever been found. And the Romans, as you know, were meticulous record keepers. They were so impressive in fact, that the United States form of government is copied from theirs. So they were definitely not primitive, or unable to account of a trial and execution of yet another professed Messiah. A people that were quite prevalent in those times as well. Because, then like now, people were looking for the savior so many pagan myths promised them, including that of the Hebrews.

June 26, 2007

The difference between Jesus and Hercules is that Jesus was never played by Kevin Sorbo - this should be proof enough of the divinity of Jesus

Seriously though, while there are parallels to the stories, I think the stories are also so completely simplified (simplistically so - and no, simplistic is not a good thing) that similarites that don't exist are being read into the narrative. Using their births as just an example - Hercules was a demi-god, half-beed of a God and a mortal. While jesus was born of a woman, he was not a half-man/half-God split as Hercules was. He was completely God and completely human at the same time. Furthermore to this, Jesus existed before his physical birth, indeed he existed from the very beginning of creation (hence he could not have simply been a half-breed god). Hercules did not exist until the seed of Zeus impregnated a mortal who then gave birth.

I know you could argue then that while the details may be a little different the general concept is there (though i think these are significant differences in and of themselves). However, to go down this line, there is little hope that Jesus could have a completely unique birth. Every deity in history has come from somewhere. Was he born from two immortal beings? It's been done. Two mortals, and this deity rose to the status of God? Been done before. Mortal/immortal mix? Done. God incarnated as a human. Done. Created from nothing? Done. Created from inanimate objects? Transfigured from an animal? Done. Done and done and done. Every way that you could imagine Jesus came to being, chances are that there is a parallel with some deity from another culture. All the skeptic needs do is find which deity resembles the birth of Jesus, claim it was a copy, and then go home satisfied that they have disproved the jesus myth. Then repeat the process with other aspects of Jesus' life, birth and death (Jesus turned water into wine? Good, Dionysus did that also - shock, the God of Wine turning something into wine, who'd have thought that possible..... gee, must be a copy......... Jesus healed the sick? Oh well, so did Asclepius - my God, who'd have thought that the God of Healing would heal the sick, pfft).

If you simplified my life and the life of my brother, you could make the same conclusion - we went to the same school, we graduated school together. We both went to university (we are doing different courses, but simplify it far enough and we both went to university - the same university even.... different campus...... but still...... ). Simplifying anything to the extent that every detail has been watered down, and then comparing it to another story that has also been watered down and simplified is completely ludicrous in my most biased and subjective opinion.

But thanks for the thread, mako :tu: I'm sure it'll produce some interesting discussions.

Regards, PA

Edited June 26, 2007 by Paranoid Android

June 26, 2007

Kevin Sorbo ... Now that's funny!!!!!!

Furthermore to this, Jesus existed before his physical birth, indeed he existed from the very beginning of creation (hence he could not have simply been a half-breed god).

Only according to a bunch of squabbling bishops during the Nicean Council and not the Scriptures, me pal.

Hercules did not exist until the seed of Zeus impregnated a mortal who then gave birth.

And the HS impregnated Mary. No difference.

... Many of the stories about Jesus contained in these ancient documents [Gospels, canonical and not] Father Kannengiesser says, were tales commonly applied to mythical figures and heroes of the time. It was almost obligatory to have such stories available, the theologian says; they were stock stories told to convert people to Jesus. Tales of virgin births, divine heroes, and miracles workers were relatively common 2,000 years ago and simply did not mean what they do to us today.--Kerry Temple (PhD), Editor, Notre Dame Magazine

AND:

... This is where we see a variation on the Jewish practice of creative borrowing from ancient writings, for virgin birth was not a tradition in Jewish history. No Jewish story or legend spoke of the coming Messiah being born of a virgin. But there were dozens of precedents for divine-mortal coupling and virgin birth in Greek culture. Many Greek heroes were sired by gods, either through old-fashioned penetration or something more grandiose, such as ...--Gospel Truth, Shorto, Russell, pg. 27-8

AND:

Although all of these religious claims seem remarkable to the modern reader, none of them would have astounded the average citizen of the early Roman empire. Stories of heavenly portents, miraculous healings, mystical visions, and even resurrections were told about a number of demi-gods or heroes. In fact, a number of supernatural phenomena were even attributed to certain philosophers and emperors.

SOURCE: Religion in the Roman World (Mary Bonz, Harvard Theological Review)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh.../religions.html

Kindly,

Sean

June 26, 2007

Using their births as just an example - Hercules was a demi-god, half-beed of a God and a mortal. While jesus was born of a woman, he was not a half-man/half-God split as Hercules was. He was completely God and completely human at the same time.

Same can be said of Hercules. He was completely god and completely human at the same time also.

If jesus was completely god as you say, then he'd have no need to pray to himself or call out to his father to forgive. He'd have forgiven them himself, however, he was just a prophet or a crazy man - thin line.

Your brother analogy is stupid also, you're comparing you and your brother to jesus and Hercules when jesus and Hercules were a thousand years apart. If you did want to make a comparative analogy then using you yourself and comparing your life with that of a 1200ad person's life, you'd realise that your life and his would be extremely different. Both born from humans, both christian (of course, he could have got burnt at the stake if he were not, even if he was jesus reincarnate himself - heresy) you'd get eductation and he would not.

Using two lives - especially as brothers - is a very poor analogy of jesus and Hercules :tu:

Edited June 26, 2007 by Chokmah

June 26, 2007

If jesus was completely god as you say, then he'd have no need to pray to himself or call out to his father to forgive. He'd have forgiven them himself

Good point... :yes:

June 26, 2007

Only according to a bunch of squabbling bishops during the Nicean Council and not the Scriptures, me pal.
And the HS impregnated Mary. No difference.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God - John 1:1. Sean, this passage then goes and leaves no doubt who the "Word" is - Jesus. I think it was long before Nicaea that the Bible showed Jesus as existing before his mortal birth. Whether you agree with what the Bible says is a different matter - but I would not quite so easily attribute this to a doctrine made at a council. This is not quite as....... disputed..... as the Trinity.

As for other posts in this thread (Chokmah, I'm thinking mainly of), the same cannot be said of Hercules - he was not fully human and fully God. All stories of him clearly label him as a half-god. the same cannot be said for Jesus. Indeed, the account of Jesus from Phillipians shows that Jesus Christ: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross! (Phillipians 2:7-10). As before, whether you agree with what the Bible says is a different matter, but Jesus is not classed as a demi-god/half-god according to the scriptures.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Paranoid Android

June 26, 2007

Many people believe that because Jesus has been written about and spoken about so much for the last 2 millennia that he actually lived. Many doubt that followers of Jesus would lay down their lives for their beliefs if Jesus was just a myth, that a myth could not create such ardor and devotion. Surely then, Jesus must have lived, taught and died, just as the gospels say!
If you examine the evidence for Erakles (Hercules to us) of Greek mythology, the parallels with the myth of Jesus is astounding. Just as Jesus was born from the “union” of the Holy Ghost and the mortal and virgin Mary, So Erakles was born of the union of Zeus and the mortal and chaste Alcmene. Just as Hera wanted to kill Erakles, so Herod wanted to kill Jesus. Just as Jesus traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performing miracles, so did Erakles. Just as Jesus died and rose to heaven, Erakles died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. The ancients believed that Erakles actually lived, told stories of him, worshipped him and dedicated temples to him, just as Christians believe Jesus actually lived, have stories of him, worship him and dedicate churches and cathedrals to him.

When the “evidence” for Erakles is closely examined, the parallels with that of Jesus is astoundingly similar. Just as the gospels tell the story of Jesus, many of the ancient “notables” told the story of Erakles. Homer told epic stories of the life of Erakles. Aesop told stories of Erakles and quoted his words. Josephus, that darling/nemesis of Christian apologists, mentions Jesus once (if you accept the Testimonium Flavianium as factual) in his “Antiquities” and mentions Erakles three times (1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Tacitus mentions Jesus once but mentions Erakles many times in his Annals.

Just as we have no artifacts, writings (by Jesus) or eyewitnesses of Jesus, we have nothing for Erakles. ALL information about Jesus and Erakles comes from stories, beliefs and hearsay! So, should we believe in either Erakles or Jesus just because non-contemporary story tellers and historians mention them and that many people either believe or have believed in them?

For those that doubt a “historical” Jesus could develop from myth, that believe there is no precedence for this, we but have to look at the myths of ancient religions.. Greek and Roman writers such as Diodorus, Cicero, Livy and others took it on faith that historical roots existed for Erakles, Theseus, Odysseus, Minos, Dionysus and others. And just as the Christian monk Dionysius Exiguus (aka Dennis the Little) in the 6th century CE attempted to put a date to Jesus, the “Father of History”, Herodotus tried to (quite unsuccessfully) determine when Erakles lived.

Today, people consider Erakles and other Greek gods to be naught more than the myths of a barbarian civilization because when a civilization dies – so do their Gods. In the case of the Classical Greek gods and goddesses, many of their adherents were dragged kicking and screaming from their pagan temples to the churches of the nascent Christianity, as evidenced by the following timeline: (Timeline courtesy of K. Humphreys)

314 Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.” Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus. (See Christianity isn’t the only religion that can claim martyrdom).

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists” (read pagans for Hellenists). Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”.

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms.

Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organized next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination (astrology not excluded).

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones. The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia – western Asia Minor) orders that religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday. Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term “pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter." The non-Christians are called “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”.In another edict, Theodosius calls “insane” those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine' (thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples. In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

382 “Hellelujah” (“Glory to Yahweh”) is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis. (Death Camps seem to be a common Christian theme)

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous epistle “Pro Templis” to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turning the temple of Dionysius into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and names them “superstitions of the gentiles” (gentilicia superstitio). New full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop “Saint” Epiphanius and “Saint” Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’s edict declares:

“The ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island.”

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic “idolatry”. The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397 “Demolish them!” Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).

399 With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished. 400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the non-Christians of this area.

401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys temples and “idols”. In Gaza too, the local bishop “Saint” Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch pagans and to demolish the remaining nine still active temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalcedon orders all the Christians that still keep good relations with their non-Christian relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of grey-dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the “idols” in all the cities of Palestine.

406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic temples. In Ephesus he orders the destruction of the famous temple of Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, “Saints” Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the pagans and the total destruction of their temples and sanctuaries.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the pagans are also persecuted. “Saint” Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be punished by death.

415 In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. Emperor Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias “The Sword of God”, exterminates the last pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423 Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the pagans is nothing more than “demon worship” and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429 The temple of goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

431 Council of Ephesus ("Robber Synod"). Promotion for the godman – "Christ is complete God and complete man."

435 On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all “heretics” and pagans of the empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-Christian religion.

438 Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the pagans, incriminating their “idolatry” as the reason of a recent plague!

440 to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities. 448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

450 All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451 Council of Chalcedon. New edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that “idolatry” is punished by death. Assertion of orthodox doctrine over the 'Monophysites' – 'JC has single, divine nature.'

457 to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488 The majority of the pagans of Minor Asia are exterminated after a desperate revolt against the emperor and the Church.

486 More “underground” pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

515 Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that already say they are Christians. The emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius, orders the massacre of the pagans in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the temple of local god Theandrites

523 Emperor Justin I outlaws the Arian heresy and campaigns to suppress Arianism everywhere.

528 Emperor Justinian outlaws the “alternative” Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution—by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails—of all who practice “sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry” and prohibits all teachings by the pagans (“the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes”).

529 Justinian outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

532 The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the pagans of Minor Asia.

542 Justinian allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to forcibly convert the pagans of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished pagan temples. 546 Hundreds of pagans are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

556 Justinian orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last non-Christians of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

562 Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582 The Christians torture and crucify Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last non-Christians of Heliopolis (Baalbek).

580 The Christian inquisitors attack a secret temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the rest of the pagans are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583 New persecutions against the gentile Hellenes by Emperor Maurice.

590 In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers “discover” pagan conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.

Currently, Christianity still exerts a powerful influence on a good part of the industrialized world, so that skeptics have to be careful of “insulting” the so-called Christian majority with assertions that Jesus never existed. Christianity depends on the existence of a historical Jesus and will defend even the most unreliable sources at all costs. The faithful want to believe and we are told by so many Christian theologians and historical experts that Jesus did indeed exist, all the while ignoring the total lack of any evidence - be it contemporary mention in ancient documents or physical evidence obtained through archaeological discovery. If a scholar makes a historical claim, his assertion should depend on the evidence presented and not his standing in this scholastic or theological field. Belief/mythology can exist without evidence, but facts depend on evidence and facts are the name of the game in historical research.

Facts do not depend on evidence. We have no evidence that stonehenge was ever built except for the fact that it is built. How it was built and what the people knew is a great mystery. We know they existed and we know they built it; therefore the evidence that it is there is a fact that someone built it.

Ofcourse, this changes when oral traditions are passed on; or when religious books are burned. In 250 CE, the Roman Emperor Decius burned many books and churches and arrested many leaders. He also had many believers killed if they didn't turn back to paganism. You went on an entire list of how Christians combated paganism but didn't once mention the combat that paganism had against Christianity at first. Now I'm not justifying any of those killings. But if you are going to write with unbiased historical evidence, then let the 'facts' stand tall. Is it then to be supposed that most of our earliest writings were burned in effort to snuff Christianity? I say, "Yes."

Also keep in mind that the Christians couldn't have organized because of the constant persecution from those that knew of their existence. Its not like Christians began mass printing or copying their own texts in the first century, and the earliest we have is from the second century. Of these, so few remain. On top of that, Jesus's desciples were rejected by a great many in Judea and were persecuted in the Roman world. What evidence can you expect to find from people who are rejected both by Jews and the main populous of Gentiles. No wonder we don't see much evidence of the Christian faith until the fourth century.

And as far the similarities between Hercules and Jesus: Hercules was supposed to be a half-god from the beginning but was plagued by humanity at birth. However, God came in the person of Jesus Christ to a plagued humanity at birth and purified it in His life, death, resurrection.

Hercules and his followers were not persecuted by the main body of Greek believers as were the Christians. Hercules didn't have twelve desciples; one of which betrayed him to his own people. Hercules who was a son of zeus doesn't match God the Father who incarnated himself as Jesus not for the sake of those at his time, but for the sake of all humanity for all time. Hercules showed great valor as a warrior and fought bravely in battle. Jesus never lifted a sword nor showed his power to destroy the evil.

Just because there are 'similarities and lack of evidence between both' it doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion that they both didn't exist or even eat up the idea that they are related to each other. Hitler is very similar to Nimrod in the sense that Nimrod tried to conform all men to one language and tribe that would out do the power of even God and left the tower and city of Babel as evidence. Would future generations then have a logical reason to say that 20th century men made Hitler up and Nimrod is the real culprit for humanity's confusion? Ofcourse we have videos and pictures of Hitler. But what if a new nation was formed that sought to remove all traces of evil government policy and all we had was an oral history of it. Would it be fact then? We know now that is fact, but what if that evidence was removed? And about the hera and herod thing.....Herod actually lived. Hera is an older idea that Herod. Lets not jump to conclusions so easy as to say that the Christians made Herod up to.

Edited June 26, 2007 by Bluefinger

June 26, 2007

If jesus was completely god as you say, then he'd have no need to pray to himself or call out to his father to forgive. He'd have forgiven them himself, however, he was just a prophet or a crazy man - thin line.

This is your conclusion based on what you see, not what you understand. For if you read and knew what you were reading, you wouldn't put it in such a way. This responsive of yours indicates your either your lack of understanding of Christianity or your bias understanding based on your bias toward Christianity.

Jesus prayed to the Father to fulfill the human response of his vicarious mission as man to God. Why did Christ ask the Father to forgive? To act on humanity's part where humanity was unworthy to act; supplication. If you don't understand the person of Jesus, then how are you going to understand his actions?

Edited June 26, 2007 by Bluefinger

June 27, 2007

You're being silly again, Mako.

Jesus does not play big in Roman records because criminals were executed every day in the Roman Empire. People who ask why Jesus in not in the "official" Roman records are idiots. We don't have any of the official Roman records from this time, just a few books from the time that do HAPPEN TO MENTION JESUS, like Tacitus and Josephus. People like you claimed for years that there was not Pontious Pilate either, and then a stele with his name on it was found in Caesarea.

But we do have ancient records FROM THE JEWS THEMSELVES that acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth, and if he were a mere invention, they certainly would have admitted it. But in those times it was IMPOSSIBLE to claim there was no Jesus, because his official execution was witnessed by hundreds, if not thousands, and recorded in the Roman annals.

Honestly Mako, the minimalists like you who try to claim Jesus the man never existed, reveal to the world they are just as ignorant as the fundies who think the world is only 6,000 years old. Saying such blatantly stupid things in light of the historical evidence Jesus existed, ADMITTED BY HIS WORST ENEMIES makes your position of Jesus' none existence totally laughable.

But was he the "son" of a Sumerian Storm Dragon that flooded the world because humans were too noisy, and the Hebrews borrowed and distorted this myth? There's where you can make your argument, but you have NO ARGUMENT as to the nonsense that there was no historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Edited June 27, 2007 by draconic chronicler

June 27, 2007

If mako is silly then I must join him in his silliness ,Because there is no Historical evidence of Jesus .In your opening remarks you yourself admitted there are no Roman records of him and the Romans were meticulous with their records .The jewish historians you mention were not even born when Jesus was supposed to be here ,plus the fact that the that their statements have been recognized as interpolations.I could give you a big cut &paste job with all my references but nobody likes long post and seldom read them so I will leave it at that

fullywired

Edited June 27, 2007 by fullywired

June 27, 2007

If mako is silly then I must join him in his silliness ,Because there is no Historical evidence of Jesus .In your opening remarks you yourself admitted there are no Roman records of him and the Romans were meticulous with their records .The jewish historians you mention were not even born when Jesus was supposed to be here ,plus the fact that the that their statements have been recognized as interpolations.I could give you a big cut &paste job with all my references but nobody likes long post and seldom read them so I will leave it at that
fullywired

Yet, we have manuscripts talk about Jesus that are in far older, in far larger amount, and far better condition than manuscripts that mention Julius Caesar, yet many believe in Julius Caesar more than Jesus Christ? :huh:

I thought that if there was more historical evidence than one thing, then the one with more evidence should be more convincing.

June 27, 2007

Yet, we have manuscripts talk about Jesus that are in far older, in far larger amount, and far better condition than manuscripts that mention Julius Caesar, yet many believe in Julius Caesar more than Jesus Christ?
I thought that if there was more historical evidence than one thing, then the one with more evidence should be more convincing.

Where are these manuscripts ?Who wrote them ?Why is it that only you know of them?.can you please post the source

Fullywired

June 27, 2007

I believe that a Hebrew scholar from Alexandria named Yeshua ben Yoseph, aka Jesus, did exist as a reformer from within the sect of the Hebrew Nazarenes long ago.

That said, I really liked the first part of this article a lot because it lends a great deal to how the the Greeks of Palestine may have perceived the passing around about him and how they tried to relate the information in their minds with what they were already familiar with, just as Romans apparently tried to relate to him though their familiar tradition that their emperors could be living gods incarnate.

Identification famous individuals from the past to add stature to ones in the present when speaking about them still goes on to a great extent today, especially in politics. In most cases that I am familiar with this most often occurs when a group is trying to rally people to great some sort of major change in the status quo.

I have not really looked into what sort of Greeks the half god Hercules was the top favorite with, but perhaps he was a favorite with the common people and seen as someone who cared about them as Yeshua came to be, and terms of identification with Hercules were used in identifying what sort of person Yeshua was.

June 27, 2007

We have no evidence that stonehenge was ever built

Not quite right…we have archaeological evidence of the construction of Stonehenge, we can identify 3 separate building periods and at least 3 separate peoples. The earliest construction only consisted of a ditch, three standing stones, four wooden posts and 56 holes (which seem to have been often dug and refilled with creamated human remains). During the second period the greatest effort occurred with the inclusion of 80 large bluestones – this is where the mystery comes in, how did they get these stones from Wales to Avesbury and how did they erect them…several theories exist, but we may never know the true answer. In the final stage left Stonehenge much as we see it today. We have remains of the stone and bone tools used during the various stages of construction, cremated human remains and even the “Archer of Stonghenge along with his gold ornaments, copper knives and stone arrowheads (actually he was found 4 miles from Stonehenge but is from the same period).

Is it then to be supposed that most of our earliest writings were burned in effort to snuff Christianity? I say, "Yes."

Let’s be unbiased then, other than Christian sources we have no records of a comprehensive persecution of Christians under Emperor Trajan Deicus. Zosimus, a historian of that period makes no mention of a persecution. There have been found several libelli (certificates of compliance) that show Deicus did command a sacrifice to the traditional gods of Rome, with loss of property and possible death as a result of non-compliance, there is no indication that these libelli were specifically aimed at Christians but seem to be directed at all people of the Empire. Book Burning did not become the norm until around a century later when the pagan libraries were burned by order of the Christian Emperor Flavius Julius Constantius (aka Constantius II).

No wonder we don't see much evidence of the Christian faith until the fourth century.

Okay, I’ll be sure to tell Clement, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Tatian, Theophilus, and Tertullian that they and their congregations never existed. We have a lot of evidence for early Christians ranging from what is now the accepted brand of the religion to the Gnostics and others.

However, God came in the person of Jesus Christ to a plagued humanity at birth and purified it in His life, death, resurrection.

Show some evidence of this (not to include your mythology). Explain why contemporary historians living at the same time and in the same area never once mention him or his follower or any of the occurrences (earthquake, darkness one Passover eve, open graves with saints walking among the living, the dead being raised, wine to water, walking on water, and on and on through all the silly magic of the gospels) that supposedly took place?

Hercules didn't have twelve desciples; one of which betrayed him to his own people.

There is no evidence that Jesus did either…other than mythology, but then with all the book burning of pagan libraries, how do we know that Hercules didn’t have 12 disciples? After all Krishna had 12 disciples as did Mithra, both of which is older than Christianity. How do we know that Judas betrayed Jesus? The gospel of Judas tells a slightly different story.

Jesus never lifted a sword nor showed his power to destroy the evil.

No, he just told his followers to sell their coats so they could buy swords…

Hitler is very similar to Nimrod in the sense that Nimrod tried to conform all men to one language and tribe that would out do the power of even God and left the tower and city of Babel as evidence

LOL that is the most ludicrous comparison I have ever heard. Hitler had no desire to conform all men to one language and tribe! He wanted to destroy all non-Aryans! If you were not Aryan or a related people, you were dead! I don’t think you can quite compare a mythical personage with a real person of 2600 years later….LOL

match God the Father who incarnated himself as Jesus

If Jesus and the Father are the same, why didn’t Jesus just pray to himself, in fact why would he even pray to the Father, as an avatar of the father, he would know everything the father did and the father would know everything he knew! This is the silliest part of Christianity…they couldn’t even copy the Trinity right.

Lets not jump to conclusions so easy as to say that the Christians made Herod up to.

Why should I think that Herod was made up…I have all kinds of evidence for Herod, multiple source verifications, coins minted under his direction with his portrait on it, public works with inscriptions bearing his name as the ruler, all kinds of evidence…yet there is no evidence of Jesus, no multiple source verifications, no coins, no portraits (not even a description in the NT – almost as if he was made up), no inscriptions bearing his name before the 4th century…nothing! :yes:

June 27, 2007

If mako is silly then I must join him in his silliness ,Because there is no Historical evidence of Jesus .In your opening remarks you yourself admitted there are no Roman records of him and the Romans were meticulous with their records .The jewish historians you mention were not even born when Jesus was supposed to be here ,plus the fact that the that their statements have been recognized as interpolations.I could give you a big cut &paste job with all my references but nobody likes long post and seldom read them so I will leave it at that
fullywired

There are ancient books that mention Jesus, Mako admits that himself, and written by contemoraries of Jesus. And if there was any possibility the Jews could prove Jesus didn't exist, we would not find the jewish documents discrediting Jesus' theology, but not his very existence, for this was common knowledge that could not be disputed in those days when the Roman records did exist.

It would be a stupid to say Elvis Presely didn't exist as it would be to say the same of Jesus. The Roman recordes DID exist during the early persecutions, yet do we see any accusations that Jesus never existed from the Roman Government? Of course not, becasue that lie could not be sustained in ligt of all the evidence that existed then. If you researched this at any length, you would know that minimalists have claimed Pilate was supposedly made up by the Christains too, but then a monument with his name was found. There is plently of ammuntion to claim Jesus was not a God, but it is absurd to say he was an invented character, when only two decades after his death, Christians were suffering horrible deaths for believing he was their God. That world was practically as sophisitcated as our own, with historians, lawyers, and the like. It is ridiculous to believe, Jesus would have such a following in only thirty years if there was no record he ever existed. It would be no different than someone today claiming god walked on earth 30 years ago, yet simply invented the characte. It can't be done today, and it couldnt have been done in the Roman Empire..

June 27, 2007

People who ask why Jesus in not in the "official" Roman records are idiots

Please point out to me where I ever mentioned Roman records…naturally he wouldn’t be in Roman records (and yes they did keep records of executions and the executed), the Christians would probably have destroyed them (if they actually existed) once they took over the administration of the Empire because they would have shown that the story was totally made up.

just a few books from the time that do HAPPEN TO MENTION JESUS, like Tacitus and Josephus.

Let’s see…Josephus – Testimonium Flavianum and Jamesian Reference – both considered to be insertions by Christians and not part of Josephus’ original works, even if they were, they were not contemporary eyewitness reports only second hand information taken from Christian sources….Tacitus – Annals quotation mentioning Nero and Christians…Dio Cassius writing at the same time does not even mention this edict from Nero against the Christians, then there is the problem that in the 1st century CE the followers of Jesus were not called Christians, this term did not come into use until late 2nd , early 3rd century. Then there is the problem that no Apologist quoted this “proof of Jesus” until it had appeared almost word for word in the 5th century in works by a well known forger of ancient documents, Sulpicius Severus. You failed to mention the standard Christian proofs such as Suetonius, Pliny the Elder, etc…they are all proof of the existence of Christians in the 2nd century CE, something we were well aware of, but are worthless as evidence for the existence of Jesus, just as proof of the existence of Mithrans would not be proof of the existence of Mithra.

People like you claimed for years that there was not Pontious Pilate either, and then a stele with his name on it was found in Caesarea.

I keep hearing this claim, but have never read an older history (and I have read some old ones – see my bibliography on “The Servant of the Lord” thread) or listened to a lecture “back in the day” where this claim was made. If you can provide any information of who said this and when, I would appreciate it greatly.

But we do have ancient records FROM THE JEWS THEMSELVES that acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth, and if he were a mere invention, they certainly would have admitted it.

Yep, sure do…written between 300 and 600 CE and purports to mention Jesus, yet if you had bothered to read them or any book on them, you would know that it is just wishful thinking on the part of Apologists – that is unless you wish to admit that Mary was a whore who cheated on Joseph with ben Pantera and had a b****** by the name of Jesus. That this b****** went to study magic in Egypt and came back to Judea to practice this magic in the marketplaces. Or that Jesus was found guilty of blasphemy, had to walk through the town for some many days carrying a sign that urged people to speak up for him and that he was then stoned to death and hung on a tree. Doesn’t sound like the Jesus of the gospels to me….

There are ancient books that mention Jesus, Mako admits that himself, and written by contemoraries of Jesus.

There is ancient and then there is ancient...the ancient books that mention Jesus (as I pointed out above) are not contemporary with Jesus but come at least 3/4 of a century after he supposedly lived and contain NO eyewitness information, just second hand information :yes:

Edited June 27, 2007 by mako

June 27, 2007

Too bad Jesus is a myth to you. You should be happy that you're not a myth to him.

To me Jesus is as real as life itself. But who likes Christians throwing their beliefs in others faces?

Jesus is someone who has to be sought out. He's not an "in your face kind of guy", he gives you free will and a choice.

If you over analyze something you'll lose track of it's true meaning and intrinsic value.

June 27, 2007

You should be happy that you're not a myth to him.

You should be happy that the Creator loves you...and his name sure ain't Jehovah! :yes:

June 27, 2007

There is ancient and then there is ancient...the ancient books that mention Jesus (as I pointed out above) are not contemporary with Jesus but come at least 3/4 of a century after he supposedly lived and contain NO eyewitness information, just second hand information

Even being 3/4 of a century later is strong enough. Seventy-five years later means that someone who wrote them most likely knew the apostles and learned from them. Even though this is second hand, its credible enough. Many of the stories that we've come to know were true were by witnesses or second hand witnesses. Before photography, a good portion of our history came from oral tradition and second hand writings. Should we not believe a good portion of our history then?

Edited June 27, 2007 by Bluefinger

June 27, 2007

Even being 3/4 of a century later is strong enough.

If you will read it carefully, I pointed out that the Josephus and Tacitus quotes were forgeries from the 4th and 5th centuries CE. That means it is more like you inserting material into Shakespeare’s MacBeth that says Jesus returned during that time!

seventy five years means that someone who wrote them most likely knew the apostles and learned from them

Not really…first, the disciples were probably near the age of Jesus (30-32) and the average person lived only into their early 40’s during that period of time. This means that 75 years later is at least 2, if not 3 generations later.

Even though this is second hand, its credible enough.

You have never played that “whisper in another person’s ear and pass it on” game, evidentally. Within two whispers the message is usually entirely garbled. If you think 2nd hand is ok, then Israel Hawkins must be the new messiah, he heads a growing religion and even has his own bible…I have it second hand from one of his follower that he is indeed the real Messiah! You need to join, because you think second hand information is accurate!

The entire Hindu religion wasn't written down until LONG after it came into being and then went through reform itself.

You are correct, give the man a cigar…the earliest Hindu Scripture dates (by oral tradition) from around 5000 BCE but wasn’t written down until 1500 BCE…Yeah that is long afterward, but still before Jehovah’s little party got started….What would you call the Protestant Reformation….why a reform of course, so Christianity has gone through a reform too! LOL

How can we know for sure when the Scriptures of the Bible have existed longer than the Vedas Scriptures

We can’t because they aren’t…

Before photography, a good portion of our history came from oral tradition and second hand writings

Wrong again…photography is not really a replacement of written history, else every schoolbook on modern history would be nothing but photos. History (after Herodotus) usually consisted of a person writing down his observations of what was happening around him…these might later be incorporated into another man’s writings, but most of written history is made of individuals historians personal observations (or, with some of the more ancient one, the word of other observers)…Strangely, the much maligned Herodotus is being proven more and more accurate as the years pass by. :yes:

June 27, 2007

If you will read it carefully, I pointed out that the Josephus and Tacitus quotes were forgeries from the 4th and 5th centuries CE. That means it is more like you inserting material into Shakespeare’s MacBeth that says Jesus returned during that time!
Not really…first, the disciples were probably near the age of Jesus (30-32) and the average person lived only into their early 40’s during that period of time. This means that 75 years later is at least 2, if not 3 generations later.

You have never played that “whisper in another person’s ear and pass it on” game, evidentally. Within two whispers the message is usually entirely garbled. If you think 2nd hand is ok, then Israel Hawkins must be the new messiah, he heads a growing religion and even has his own bible…I have it second hand from one of his follower that he is indeed the real Messiah! You need to join, because you think second hand information is accurate!

You are correct, give the man a cigar…the earliest Hindu Scripture dates (by oral tradition) from around 5000 BCE but wasn’t written down until 1500 BCE…Yeah that is long afterward, but still before Jehovah’s little party got started….What would you call the Protestant Reformation….why a reform of course, so Christianity has gone through a reform too! LOL

We can’t because they aren’t…

Wrong again…photography is not really a replacement of written history, else every schoolbook on modern history would be nothing but photos. History (after Herodotus) usually consisted of a person writing down his observations of what was happening around him…these might later be incorporated into another man’s writings, but most of written history is made of individuals historians personal observations (or, with some of the more ancient one, the word of other observers)…Strangely, the much maligned Herodotus is being proven more and more accurate as the years pass by.

Yet you haven't proved any of the history we have as valid. We have papers that were written. If you don't believe the Christian manuscripts because the earliest we have is as old as the second century, how are we to believe anything before that that we believe now, seeing that some of our oldest Christian manuscripts predate the writings of Julius Caesar? You're playing the bias game where you ignore that fact that a majority of our historical knowledge has little or no evidence and yet you put more weight on those things than you do on Christianity. Why? Its seems to me that you just don't want to consider Jesus a real person, or that the apostles existed for the mere fact that if you did, you might have to consider what they say and feel convicted to consider that there may be a God.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Bluefinger

June 27, 2007

Yet you haven't proved any of the history we have as valid. We have papers that were written.

We have multiple agreeing sources…this is usually indicative of the factuality of a report. Christianity has only one thing, a book (NT) that was written generations after the supposed existence of their founder by non-witnesses with no access to witnesses. That is hardly valid information.

If you don't believe the Christian manuscripts because the earliest we have is as old as the second century,

There are only 30 manuscripts of the New Testament existing that date before the 9th century CE, no two of them are identical except for the tiniest fragments and not one of these (where more than just a few fragments exist) contain the same books and order of books and found in the modern New Testament. The oldest existing “complete” NT is the Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) and contains the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as well as the normal complement of books…neither book is now accepted by Christians. It is noteworthy that the earlier NT manuscripts have different wording than later copies and where the wording differs, it usually expresses some doctrinal change now considered heretical by that branch of Christianity that became orthodox and mainstream. Even with that, the early Church Fathers had reservations as to the validity of your gospels, Papias writing to the presbyter Johannes had this to say, "Mark, the interpreter of Peter, recorded with great energy, if not with great accuracy, everything that he could remember had been told about Jesus. He himself had never seen the Master. He was just the interpreter of Peter, and could only retell what he had heard at various instances; not always had he got everything well explained to him and commented. One should therefore not reproach Mark ..." And Matthew and Luke used Mark as their source for most of their gospels!

seeing that some of our oldest Christian manuscripts predate the writings of Julius Caesar?

**Dang that one made me spew my coffee** Considering that Julius Caesar died in 44 BCE and the earliest Christian documents (Paul’s epistles) weren’t written until about 100 years later, your Christians would have had to have a time machine to have documentst that predated Julie’s various writings. Dude, you seriously need to take a real course on history, not one of those correspondent courses from Apologetics U (Liberty University)!

You're playing the bias game where you ignore that fact that a majority of our historical knowledge has little or no evidence

Quite the contrary, we have the writings of the ancients, the inscriptions, the monuments, the statuary, even the bodies and their grave goods. We have a plethora of evidence.

and yet you put more weight on those things than you do on Christianity.

Could that be because there is evidence for recorded history and none for Jesus?

Why? Its seems to me that you just don't want to consider Jesus a real person, or that the apostles existed

No, I don’t want to consider them without any verifiable evidence. Would you accept invisible pink unicorns at the bottom of the garden without verifiable evidence?

for the mere fact that if you did, you might have to consider what they say and feel convicted to change your heart from serving you to serving God.

No, even if they existed, the evidence that Jesus was anything more than an itinerate Rabbi is less than convincing. In fact the story told in the gospels is so contradictory that it can’t even start to be true.

IMO, to serve God isn't really a bad thing.

The Creator does not ask to be served or worshipped, only Bronze Age Tyrants wish that on their “beloved” creations! You might learn to enjoy Deism (hey, if you can attempt to convert me, I can return the favor). :yes:

June 27, 2007

We have multiple agreeing sources…this is usually indicative of the factuality of a report. Christianity has only one thing, a book (NT) that was written generations after the supposed existence of their founder by non-witnesses with no access to witnesses. That is hardly valid information. There are only 30 manuscripts of the New Testament existing that date before the 9th century CE, no two of them are identical except for the tiniest fragments and not one of these (where more than just a few fragments exist) contain the same books and order of books and found in the modern New Testament. The oldest existing “complete” NT is the Codex Sinaiticus (4th century) and contains the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as well as the normal complement of books…neither book is now accepted by Christians. It is noteworthy that the earlier NT manuscripts have different wording than later copies and where the wording differs, it usually expresses some doctrinal change now considered heretical by that branch of Christianity that became orthodox and mainstream. Even with that, the early Church Fathers had reservations as to the validity of your gospels, Papias writing to the presbyter Johannes had this to say, "Mark, the interpreter of Peter, recorded with great energy, if not with great accuracy, everything that he could remember had been told about Jesus. He himself had never seen the Master. He was just the interpreter of Peter, and could only retell what he had heard at various instances; not always had he got everything well explained to him and commented. One should therefore not reproach Mark ..." And Matthew and Luke used Mark as their source for most of their gospels!

So you are saying that Mark recorded the information given to him by Peter and this information was used as a basis for two other gospels and this somehow makes it unreliable???? Its more reliable than if Constantine wrote in a long time later.

**Dang that one made me spew my coffee** Considering that Julius Caesar died in 44 BCE and the earliest Christian documents (Paul’s epistles) weren’t written until about 100 years later, your Christians would have had to have a time machine to have documentst that predated Julie’s various writings. Dude, you seriously need to take a real course on history, not one of those correspondent courses from Apologetics U (Liberty University)!

Well, then you might as well dump the coffee out all together.

The oldest manuscripts of ancient writers like Aristotle, Plato, Herodotus (among other) amounts to a small number of copies that were made a thousand years or more after the originals were written. There are no more then ten manuscripts of Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, and the oldest copy of that was written over 900 years later than the original. Scholars accept these documents as adequate representations of the originals.

http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=34...age=7&pp=10

Of course, why would you consider this true, since it was researched by someone you can't even hold qualification to.

Whether with or without bias, I'd like you to visit this site and consider the research they have done and then make a statement as to how valid our history is when it comes to manuscriptic history. If much of our evidence of manuscripts are far predated by Christian manuscripts, what makes the Christian manuscripts less valid as history than the later manuscripts of other historical accounts? http://www.consider.org/library/text.htm

Quite the contrary, we have the writings of the ancients, the inscriptions, the monuments, the statuary, even the bodies and their grave goods. We have a plethora of evidence.

You have evidences of things happening, not evidence of the people that did those things. Its the same thing with Jesus Christ.

Could that be because there is evidence for recorded history and none for Jesus?

Nope, as I said earlier. show me tangible evidence that Julius Caesar actually existed as well as the existence of Marcus Brutus. You don't have any. All you have is records and monuments. And who could have built a Christian monument prior to the 4th century? They were being persecuted. To make such a monument would be to hang a bullseye around their necks. This then does not give weight to your argument. Monuments are not a reliable argument concerning the Christian history.

No, I don’t want to consider them without any verifiable evidence. Would you accept invisible pink unicorns at the bottom of the garden without verifiable evidence?

Nope, but I might have to if their substantial witness and recorded sighting of them. I'd at least consider the testimony and perhaps run my own inquiry. I don't have to believe something to consider it. That gives me a chance to at least get something out of it and leave the believing up to me and not to my bias.

No, even if they existed, the evidence that Jesus was anything more than an itinerate Rabbi is less than convincing. In fact the story told in the gospels is so contradictory that it can’t even start to be true.
The Creator does not ask to be served or worshipped, only Bronze Age Tyrants wish that on their “beloved” creations! You might learn to enjoy Deism (hey, if you can attempt to convert me, I can return the favor).

according to who? Jewish people that didn't like Jesus? Again, your bias has shown true. You would take a small account of Jews that hated the entire reputation of Christians more so than they did of Jesus based on the Christian refusal to participate in the Bar Chochba revolt in 132 A.D. than the many accounts of the great things that Jesus did for people. Who wouldn't slander someone they couldn't stand the thought of. You bypassed all the good records and went right to the bad so that your bias was confirmed and established. :blink:

Edited June 27, 2007 by Bluefinger

June 27, 2007

So you are saying that Mark recorded the information given to him by Peter and this information was used as a basis for two other gospels and this somehow makes it unreliable????

No, I am saying that Papias the 2nd century Bishop of Hierplolis, was leery of the accuracy of Mark’s writings ( "Mark, the interpreter of Peter, recorded with great energy, if not with great accuracy, everything that he could remember had been told about Jesus. He himself had never seen the Master. He was just the interpreter of Peter, and could only retell what he had heard at various instances; not always had he got everything well explained to him and commented. One should therefore not reproach Mark ..."). Matthew and Luke used Mark’s work as their primary source and as such their works would be as inaccurate as Mark’s work. Papias was only a few generations removed from the supposed events and would be more knowledgeable of the accuracy of Mark’s works that would we today! This points out that the NT is not necessarily all it is cracked up to be.

Well, then you might as well dump the coffee out all together.

Not really, you just failed to say what you meant…you said, “seeing that some of our oldest Christian manuscripts predate the writings of Julius Caesar?” which indicates you thought that Julie wrote after they did…what you meant was some of the oldest Christian manuscripts predate the existing copies of Julius Caesar’s works. This is of no great import…Since the Old World was under Christian domination for nearly 2000 years the likelihood of Christian manuscripts being preserved was much more likely than pagan documents being preserved.

You have evidences of things happening, not evidence of the people that did those things. Its the same thing with Jesus Christ.

Ahem…the writings name the people doing the happenings as does the inscriptions and the graves (the ancients marked their graves too) actually give us the remains of the individuals. You are becoming ridiculous with your waffling.

Nope, but I might have to if their substantial witness and recorded sighting of them. I'd at least consider the testimony and perhaps run my own inquiry. I don't have to believe something to consider it. That gives me a chance to at least get something out of it and leave the believing up to me and not to my bias.

My point exactly… and if you found evidence of these invisible pink unicorns would you deny their existence because of you bias? Probably not and if there were any substantiated evidence of the existence of Jesus and his gang, I would accept it – THERE ISN’T SO I DON’T!

according to who? Jewish people that didn't like Jesus? Again, your bias has shown true. You would take a small account of Jews that hated the entire reputation of Christians more so than they did of Jesus based on the Christian refusal to participate in the Bar Chochba revolt in 132 A.D.

No…read my lips…there is not verifiable evidence that Jesus ever existed…the Jews have none, their Babylonian Talmud was written between 300 and 600 CE and is just hearsay. The gospels were written in the 2nd century CE and are just hearsay. No contemporary mentions him, his miracles or his group! This is why I don’t believe he ever existed…Give me one, just one, verifiable piece of evidence and you can change my mind.

You bypassed all the good records and went right to the bad so that your bias was confirmed and established.

What good records? Theology written generations after the supposed fact…that is not bias against the religion, but instead bias against the lack of any evidence! :yes:

Erakles and Jesus

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