[merged]woman muslim juror got caught

[hetrodoxly]

QUOTE(hetrodoxly @ Jul 14 2007, 06:45 PM)

Women in the west have fought a hard long battle and even sacrificed their life for equality,

do you ever feel guilty for joining a religion that still represses women in many parts of the world?

No, that is cultural mistreatment. I detest it.

*So is wearing the hijab cultural

QUOTE

This is a genuine question, do you have feeling's of inadequacy or even masochistic tendencies.

NO! My God, absolutely not.

QUOTE

Many extremely beautiful Iranian women wear minimal head covering usually a light scarf across the top of the head, they're fighting an ever increasing battle with hard liners to cover up, don't you feel your doing these women an injustice.

How would I be doing them an injustice by me wearing a hijab? If that is what they want to do they're more than welcomed to the way I see it.

*They're finding it hard to justify not wearing it when it's shown that it's use is spreading in the west, the problem is the girls in the west use it mainly as a political statement, If you get feed up next week of being a "muslim" you can walk away from it? these women can't they have no choice.

QUOTE

Did you feel homosexuals and lesbians should be punished before you became a muslim.

No, and I still don't. I am an avid supporter for gay rights. There are gay-muslim groups that promote it as well. Who am I as a human being to judge someone for consenting actions between two adults?

*You can't pick and chose things from Islam you like and leave out things you don't, it comes as an whole package, if you believe in gay rights your not a muslim ask any Imam.

[EmpressStarXVII]

*So is wearing the hijab cultural

Yes it is, in a religious sense; but how does ME wearing a hijab show them injustice? I am not making the laws. Allah asks us to wear the hijab, I WANT to wear it.

*They're finding it hard to justify not wearing it when it's shown that it's use is spreading in the west, the problem is the girls in the west use it mainly as a political statement, If you get feed up next week of being a "muslim" you can walk away from it? these women can't they have no choice.

Forgive me, but I honestly don't know what you're getting at here. As for them not being able to leave Islam, yes I think that is horrible. Freedom of religion should pertain to every country in the world. The Qur'an tells us not to have compulsion in religion, if there are those in Iran that do not want to follow Islam, then considered by the Qur'an they are free to leave. Why would God want a follower that is not true in heart, but only by force?

*You can't pick and chose things from Islam you like and leave out things you don't, it comes as an whole package, if you believe in gay rights your not a muslim ask any Imam.

I know exactly what it says about homosexuality in the Qur'an. You don't own Islam, how can you say I am not a muslim? No Imam's own Islam. I am fully aware what the Qur'an says, and I am fully ready to accept the consequences of my actions.

[questionmark]

Yes it is, in a religious sense; but how does ME wearing a hijab show them injustice? I am not making the laws. Allah asks us to wear the hijab, I WANT to wear it.

Sorry, I read the Quran in five languages, including my faulty Arabic but I see absolutely no reference to any hijab there, only that women should dress so they do not arouse men. I think that in the Western world a man occupies his mind more over what is under a hijab then what is under a bikini. I am afraid that if we look at it that way we end up that running around masked in the western world is arousing men, therefore against the scripture.

[EmpressStarXVII]

Sorry, I read the Quran in five languages, including my faulty Arabic but I see absolutely no reference to any hijab there, only that women should dress so they do not arouse men. I think that in the Western world a man occupies his mind more over what is under a hijab then what is under a bikini. I am afraid that if we look at it that way we end up that running around masked in the western world is arousing men, therefore against the scripture.

Surah an-Nur ayah 31 states:

And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their ornaments except what is apparent of it, and to draw their scarves (khimars) over their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their ornaments except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule, or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their ornaments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful

This is a khimar

Just a long hijab.

[questionmark]

and not to display their ornaments except what is apparent of it, and to draw their scarves (khimars) over their bosoms (jaybs)

You mean that it says here that you have to around the world draped like a potato sack, or does it simply say that you should not run around naked?

[EmpressStarXVII]

and not to display their ornaments except what is apparent of it, and to draw their scarves (khimars) over their bosoms (jaybs)

You mean that it says here that you have to around the world draped like a potato sack, or does it simply say that you should not run around naked?

The apparent ornaments are the hands and face. So if you would like to consider fully dressed women as draped in potato sacks, yes.

[Bill Hill]

Yeah women’s ornaments. Don't show your ornaments to men; cause they find it boring.. Sound advice.

[EmpressStarXVII]

Psssssh. You call that ornaments?

[Bill Hill]

damn it, they are better than mine...

[questionmark]

The apparent ornaments are the hands and face. So if you would like to consider fully dressed women as draped in potato sacks, yes.

sincerely, I couldn't care less what somebody wears, a twelve people army tent if that makes her comfortable. What bothers me is somebody saying that the Quran requires a certain dress type, when it is evident that any none revealing, long sleeved, high cut, long dress and a head cover would suffice perfectly.

If somebody wears a shador, a khymar or what have you it is for cultural reasons, not for religious reasons.

[hetrodoxly]

Yes it is, in a religious sense; but how does ME wearing a hijab show them injustice? I am not making the laws. Allah asks us to wear the hijab, I WANT to wear it.

Forgive me, but I honestly don't know what you're getting at here. As for them not being able to leave Islam, yes I think that is horrible. Freedom of religion should pertain to every country in the world. The Qur'an tells us not to have compulsion in religion, if there are those in Iran that do not want to follow Islam, then considered by the Qur'an they are free to leave. Why would God want a follower that is not true in heart, but only by force?

I know exactly what it says about homosexuality in the Qur'an. You don't own Islam, how can you say I am not a muslim? No Imam's own Islam. I am fully aware what the Qur'an says, and I am fully ready to accept the consequences of my actions.

There's no point in carrying this on because your under the impression it's possible to have your own version of Islam. If your a Muslim, you believe in the Quran.

[explorer]

Which is like saying that you can only call yourself a Christian if you follow the Bible to the letter. How many Christians do that? Religions are like the tree of life, they grow branches. Religious identification does not require infinite slavishness to an original text, though some may believe so. The older they get the more subject to interpretation ancient texts become. Religion is not an IKEA manual for assembling a chair.

[bee]

I don't know the reason why you wear it, maybe it's psychological? but it's origins come from a time (and still is in some country's) and place when women were men's property and hidden away, as i said the equivalent would be for a black man to wear chains or an English women to wear a chastity belt & scolds bridal.

I think you are right...and this is what makes modern women in the West uncomfortable, angry and/or

confused when they see women walking around in the niqab. It's what it represents.

This is even more relevant at the moment because of religious extremists using 'ancient texts'

and fundamentalism as a power base for politics and expansion.

[hetrodoxly]

Which is like saying that you can only call yourself a Christian if you follow the Bible to the letter. How many Christians do that? Religions are like the tree of life, they grow branches. Religious identification does not require infinite slavishness to an original text, though some may believe so. The older they get the more subject to interpretation ancient texts become. Religion is not an IKEA manual for assembling a chair.

This is the crux of the matter, muslims take the quran literally.

as some christians do with the bible (this makes them no better than muslims) but the majority of christians don't.

[EmpressStarXVII]

There's no point in carrying this on because your under the impression it's possible to have your own version of Islam. If your a Muslim, you believe in the Quran.

Right, there is no point in carrying this on because...1. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and 2. It's all in attempt to discredit what I say. I told you I believed in the Qur'an. Pure and simple. If God says he is sending homosexuals to hell, then I guess he is, but that will never stop me from supporting their rights in society. Ever. No matter what the repercussions are. I admitted that. I never denied anywhere that God said otherwise.

[supercar]

This is from an article entitled 'As A Muslim I Say No to the Cover-Up' on the website of the British newspaper 'The Times':

'I am disturbed at the attempt to link choice of dress to human rights. I am worried because there seems to be a very strong revival in traditional Muslim women’s dress in Britain. As a child growing up here, it was extremely rare to see Muslim women in this country who were fully covered up, but recently I’ve seen a huge increase in the number of women who are fully covered on any high street.

To me, this is a direct symptom of the political repression that takes us backwards as Arabs and Muslims. What you wear does not indicate your political morality. The real reason Islamic extremists feel that women should be modest and covered up seems to be that women are becoming more educated and moving ahead of the men, and this is men’s way of controlling them'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article447522.ece

[Jack-A-Roe]

The woman in the court deserves to have the book thrown at her and perhaps all jurors should now be patted down before entering court rooms or maybe a metal detecting wand of some sort.

Surah an-Nur ayah 31 states:

And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their ornaments except what is apparent of it, and to draw their scarves (khimars) over their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their ornaments except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule, or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their ornaments.

Just wondering do you really think that covering up every part of your body save your hands keeps men from thinking naughty thoughts? The quote you have placed here has confused me a bit. Are you not supposed to make eye contact as well?

I ask this because I have had several male friends point out that type of covering as very sexy. If the point is to avoid arousal of mens desires then would this not be defeating the purpose? They told me that the nature of the covering itself was alluring to them. Admittedly these men are not from a Muslim culture so what they find intriguing and enticing (and dare I say it arousing) may differ from what Muslim men do.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Jack-A-Roe

[Dusty Digital]

*snip*

Please remember this forum has members of all ages and keep your comments appropriate

Edited July 16, 2007 by Daughter of the Nine Moons
crude comments

[EmpressStarXVII]

The woman in the court deserves to have the book thrown at her and perhaps all jurors should now be patted down before entering court rooms or maybe a metal detecting wand of some sort.

I agree, that was actually my first thought. How does the court know people are not bringing in tape recorders and pen camera's? I mean, it sounds a little illogical, but you never know with weirdos.

Just wondering do you really think that covering up every part of your body save your hands keeps men from thinking naughty thoughts? The quote you have placed here has confused me a bit. Are you not supposed to make eye contact as well?

I ask this because I have had several male friends point out that type of covering as very sexy. If the point is to avoid arousal of mens desires then would this not be defeating the purpose? They told me that the nature of the covering itself was alluring to them. Admittedly these men are not from a Muslim culture so what they find intriguing and enticing (and dare I say it arousing) may differ from what Muslim men do.

I am sure there are a few rogues who do find it enticing. Mystery stirs the curiosity in some people, but overall though I would imagine if I was walking down the street fully clothed, with a girl right beside me wearing spaghetti strap shirt, shorts so short you can see the bottom of the pockets, and no bra...which one is more likely to experience verbal or even touching confrontation?

So I guess it can work both ways. Not once, since I have been covering, gotten one of 'those' stares. Usually people are making it a point to look away to not be rude for starring lol.

[louie]

The woman in the court deserves to have the book thrown at her and perhaps all jurors should now be patted down before entering court rooms or maybe a metal detecting wand of some sort.

Just wondering do you really think that covering up every part of your body save your hands keeps men from thinking naughty thoughts? The quote you have placed here has confused me a bit. Are you not supposed to make eye contact as well?

I ask this because I have had several male friends point out that type of covering as very sexy. If the point is to avoid arousal of mens desires then would this not be defeating the purpose? They told me that the nature of the covering itself was alluring to them. Admittedly these men are not from a Muslim culture so what they find intriguing and enticing (and dare I say it arousing) may differ from what Muslim men do.

Wearing reveling clothes or covering up makes no diffrence to men. the arousal is in the imagination as well as the eye. you know men can get aroused if the wind changes direction. so the whole point is irrelevant.

lol

[hetrodoxly]

Right, there is no point in carrying this on because...1. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and 2. It's all in attempt to discredit what I say. I told you I believed in the Qur'an. Pure and simple. If God says he is sending homosexuals to hell, then I guess he is, but that will never stop me from supporting their rights in society. Ever. No matter what the repercussions are. I admitted that. I never denied anywhere that God said otherwise.

You said "i don't mind answering any questions" or words to that affect, i had no intention of discrediting you, it just panned out that way, look at it from an outsiders point of view, you've chosen to join a religion that believes homosexuals & lesbians are going to hell, you choose to wear a symbol of women's oppression etc. you claim to fight for gay & women's right's so why did you join this religion?

I'm just of to shoot some deer, i don't want to but i'm a hunter.

[hetrodoxly]

I agree, that was actually my first thought. How does the court know people are not bringing in tape recorders and pen camera's? I mean, it sounds a little illogical, but you never know with weirdos.

I am sure there are a few rogues who do find it enticing. Mystery stirs the curiosity in some people, but overall though I would imagine if I was walking down the street fully clothed, with a girl right beside me wearing spaghetti strap shirt, shorts so short you can see the bottom of the pockets, and no bra...which one is more likely to experience verbal or even touching confrontation?

So I guess it can work both ways. Not once, since I have been covering, gotten one of 'those' stares. Usually people are making it a point to look away to not be rude for starring lol.

I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm getting at you, it's just an observation.

There's nothing more natural in the world than a boy or man to check a women out, and nothing more natural for a girl or women who's looking for a partner to show of her ornaments:) this is what makes the world go around, covering yourself from head to foot isn't only perverted but sad, there's laws in place to deal with men who touch women without being invited.

[EmpressStarXVII]

i had no intention of discrediting you, it just panned out that way

It would have been discrediting if I denied at all that the Qur'an condems homosexuality. It would have been discrediting if I said "of course it is perfectly okay that I support gay rights, I will not be judged for that at all." Just because I support gay rights doesn't mean I am not faithful, or that I am not religious. It just makes me not as good a follower as I should be. I became a muslim because I believe that there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the last prophet. Show me some other religion that says the exact same thing?

[EmpressStarXVII]

I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm getting at you, it's just an observation.

There's nothing more natural in the world than a boy or man to check a women out, and nothing more natural for a girl or women who's looking for a partner to show of her ornaments:) this is what makes the world go around, covering yourself from head to foot isn't only perverted but sad, there's laws in place to deal with men who touch women without being invited.

An observation with intent to be 'getting' at me. Hetrodoxly, I am not blind to your posts here on UM, especially when it comes to the religion of Islam. Do you not think I notice what everyone says here about it? Of course it is your opinion and you are entitled to it fully, but that doesn't disregard the fact that you are trying to find reasons why Islam is bad. What is so bad about CHOOSING to cover your body? Why are people not outraged when they walk down the street and see a girl sitting on a park bench with short shorts, thong hanging out the back, bra straps exposed, and shirts that hardly cover the waist? Where is the outrage that "THIS" is what is bad for our childrens eyes, this is what is perverse?

I am not going to tell a woman that dresses like that "The way you dressed should be BANNED." Why? Because it is her choice, just as it is our choice to cover. God forbid a woman take extra precaution to keep clear of uninvited men, yes...that is truly sad.

[questionmark]

An observation with intent to be 'getting' at me. Hetrodoxly, I am not blind to your posts here on UM, especially when it comes to the religion of Islam. Do you not think I notice what everyone says here about it? Of course it is your opinion and you are entitled to it fully, but that doesn't disregard the fact that you are trying to find reasons why Islam is bad. What is so bad about CHOOSING to cover your body? Why are people not outraged when they walk down the street and see a girl sitting on a park bench with short shorts, thong hanging out the back, bra straps exposed, and shirts that hardly cover the waist? Where is the outrage that "THIS" is what is bad for our childrens eyes, this is what is perverse?

I am not going to tell a woman that dresses like that "The way you dressed should be BANNED." Why? Because it is her choice, just as it is our choice to cover. God forbid a woman take extra precaution to keep clear of uninvited men, yes...that is truly sad.

And I can only support you. If you talk about choices we must conclude that everybody should be able to live as he/she desires and to be allowed to do so if the maximum harm he/she can do by it is to annoy somebody.